[BOOK SPOILERS] TV Series Improvements on the Story?

[Winterz]

You really wish GRRM had spent chapters and chapters on Theon being tortured? Really?

I didn't say that. He could've humanized him and showed his struggle between chosing Robb and Balon and then his regret for harming Winterfell and its people, considering how shite his parent was. This could've happened in his own CoK POVs.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Also, it's funny to me that the show attempts to humanize Cersei in the show, I think she's actually more understandable(note: I didn't say "good" or "relateable" or anything, just understandable) in the books and that everyone in the world hates Cersei in the show regardless of how much of her evilness is given to Joff.

I think that's the point though: we're supposed to hate Cersei in the show as well, but at least we have a better understanding of why she's become the way she is. Besides, I don't think there are fundamental changes to her character in the show: she's still bitter about being a woman and Jaime being given preference by Tywin, she's still fiercely protective of her children, she still detests Tyrion for their mother's death. The essence of the character is still preserved. She just has softer edges, like pretty much every other character in the show(with the exception of Joffrey, who I think was supposed to be more of a narrative device than a properly fleshed out character in the books as well, because just like Ramsay, he represents the worst possible outcome of his parents' sins)

[Theda Baratheon]

I like Talisa. She's a sassy, witty, feisty chick that challenges patriarchal conventions in a medieval context.

Obviously D&D had to create such a character out of thin air because there was no one like that in the novels.

It's not like there was a sassy, witty, feisty pirate Ironborn girl who was a captain of her own ship in Westeros' most patriarchal place, right?

(Yeah, I still haven't gotten over it. Biggest character assasination, imo)

ummmm, yara is a fierce babe.

[PatrickStormborn]

Also, it's funny to me that the show attempts to humanize Cersei in the show, I think she's actually more understandable(note: I didn't say "good" or "relateable" or anything, just understandable) in the books and that everyone in the world hates Cersei in the show regardless of how much of her evilness is given to Joff.

This is exactly my point. Cersei is still considered an evil villain; she's just far less strong than in the books.

In the books, she hates Robert the first time he sexually assaults her. In the show, she continues to ~love~ him and keeps giving him chances. It takes a way a lot of her pride, which is an element of her strength.

The lack of Varys has always been a huge negative for me. He's such a great character, but GRRM hardly ever uses him! Hopefully in the show we'll get to see Varys scheming with Illyrio instead of disappearing for ages.

That would be overkill, just like the Theon scenes this season.

Varys' return to King's Landing is one of the most effective scenes of the series, and it's partly because we haven't seen Varys for such a long time.

Why do we need filler scenes to see him "scheming" with Illyrio?

[The Mountain That Posts]

The lack of Varys has always been a huge negative for me. He's such a great character, but GRRM hardly ever uses him! Hopefully in the show we'll get to see Varys scheming with Illyrio instead of disappearing for ages.

Disagreed. Not knowing where Varys was, to the point of almost FORGETTING about him, was one of the best parts of Feast/Dance. Both because Varys is obnoxious, but also because it made the epilogue all the more "holy shit."

I didn't say that. He could've humanized him and showed his struggle between chosing Robb and Balon and then his regret for harming Winterfell and its people, considering how shite his parent was. This could've happened in his own CoK POVs.

Oh, more Theon struggle. That I agree with. I thought you were suggesting more Theon torture chapters.

I think that's the point though: we're supposed to hate Cersei in the show as well, but at least we have a better understanding of why she's become the way she is. Besides, I don't think there are fundamental changes to her character in the show: she's still bitter about being a woman and Jaime being given preference by Tywin, she's still fiercely protective of her children, she still detests Tyrion for their mother's death. The essence of the character is still preserved. She just has softer edges, like pretty much every other character in the show(with the exception of Joffrey, who I think was supposed to be more of a narrative device than a properly fleshed out character in the books as well, because just like Ramsay, he represents the worst possible outcome of his parents' sins)

Agreed. But I do get the feeling that they're trying too hard to make Cersei "likeable", honestly. Perhaps because Lena Headey is one of the main actresses and they realize they'll be stuck with her until likely at least season 7.

This is exactly my point. Cersei is still considered an evil villain; she's just far less strong than in the books.

In the books, she hates Robert the first time he sexually assaults her. In the show, she continues to ~love~ him and keeps giving him chances. It takes a way a lot of her pride, which is an element of her strength.

Agreed.

Varys' return to King's Landing is one of the most effective scenes of the series, and it's partly because we haven't seen Varys for such a long time.

Why do we need filler scenes to see him "scheming" with Illyrio?

One of the best parts about Varys and Littlefinger is their subltetly and that we don't truely understand them all that well, despite them being the two most affecting events in the entire series. Scenes like Littlefinger spelling out his plan to Sansa and future Varys scheming with Illyrio scenes? Ugh, please no.

[Theda Baratheon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HChNeTGe9M

I'm just going to leave this here as a nice little added scene THAT I ACTUALLY LOVED

[Joyful Union]

Disagreed. Not knowing where Varys was, to the point of almost FORGETTING about him, was one of the best parts of Feast/Dance. Both because Varys is obnoxious, but also because it made the epilogue all the more "holy shit."

Ok, I'll admit that his murder of Pycelle and Kevan was pretty awesome, but I still feel that not having him in the books for the vast majority of the time was a mistake. We spent time with Areo Hotah, Aeron, and Victarian, yet we didnt see Varys for the over 1500 pages?

[Theda Baratheon]

ASHA GREYJOY IS MY QUEEN.

[Weeping Sore]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with those who don't like Aiden Gillen's Littlefinger. There's a great patina of irony on every word he says. It truly feels like it is all a game to him, doing everything "as if" he meant it.

[The Mountain That Posts]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with those who don't like Aiden Gillen's Littlefinger. There's a great patina of irony on every word he says. It truly feels like it is all a game to him, doing everything "as if" he meant it.

He told Sansa his plans flat out.

That one scene alone perfectly portrays how fucking stupid D&D are.

And every Aidan Gillan scene in general is awful. His voice, his mannerisms, all of it. Plus, he also feels OLDER than Eddard Stark. Which is lolzie in of itself.

[David Selig]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with those who don't like Aiden Gillen's Littlefinger. There's a great patina of irony on every word he says. It truly feels like it is all a game to him, doing everything "as if" he meant it.

He's as subtle as a sledgehammer. I don't buy him as a successful plotter and backstabber at all.

[YouSnowNothing]

He told Sansa his plans flat out.

That one scene alone perfectly portrays how fucking stupid D&D are.

Littlefinger spends most of his time in AFFC telling Sansa his plans outright. It's firmly established that Sansa is his weak point, and yet he doesn't see her as a threat so he continually divulges information to her.

[Miodrag]

Yeah, Aiden Gillen was much better in "The Wire" than in GOT. But, he has a lot of credit in my eyes: as far as I know, he's the only actor in the show who has read all five books. (A silly part in me sometimes thinks that's the reason for his unusually sub-par performance. Like, he became a superfan of the novels and he's, like a superfan's due, disappointed in TV show. I know it doesn't make sense, but nevertheless it can be comforting.)

[The Mountain That Posts]

Yeah, Aiden Gillen was much better in "The Wire" than in GOT. But, he has a lot of credit in my eyes: as far as I know, he's the only actor in the show who has read all five books. (A silly part in me sometimes thinks that's the reason for his unusually sub-par performance. Like, he became a superfan of the novels and he's, like a superfan's due, disappointed in TV show. I know it doesn't make sense, but nevertheless it can be comforting.)

Kit Harrington has read all five books.

Pretty sure Alife Allen has also read all five books, but I could be wrong.

Also, since Game of Thrones, Jason(Khal Drogo) has read all five books - even if he had only read the first book before the shooting of season one.

[Miodrag]

Kit Harrington has read all five books.

Pretty sure Alife Allen has also read all five books, but I could be wrong.

Also, since Game of Thrones, Jason(Khal Drogo) has read all five books - even if he had only read the first book before the shooting of season one.

Last time Kit said anything on the subject, he said he read four of them. He did seem confused a little, like, he wasn't sure himself, but I think I recall he added that he still didn't read the last one.

Alfie said pretty recently he stopped after ASOS.

Not surprised with Jason Momoa, he was delighted with the books from day one, always recommending fans to read the novels. Will it spoil this thread if I say I'd prefer he adapted ASOIAF? (Even with him being responsible for the first important deviation: the wedding night between Drogo and Dany was a nastier business in the show than it was in AGOT.)

[Pinkie Baelish]

In the books, she hates Robert the first time he sexually assaults her. In the show, she continues to ~love~ him and keeps giving him chances. It takes a way a lot of her pride, which is an element of her strength.

There's no record of Robert committing marital rape in the show. Cersei says he was drunk on their wedding night, but gave no inclination of a lack of consent on her part. Had there been, I would definitely agree that Cersei is weaker in the show(I don't consider book Cersei to be very strong at all - she reminds me of Theon in any ways).

[Pinkie Baelish]

Pretty sure Alife Allen has also read all five books, but I could be wrong.

I read an interview where he said that he read the first two after season 2, but stopped reading ASOS when he found out his character wasn't in it and he got a little bored because of a lack of Theon(make whatever you want of out of that statement). I'm not sure whether NCW has read the books, but he seems to totally understand Jaime's character. Dinklage, Headey and Dance haven't read the books.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Last time Kit said anything on the subject, he said he read four of them. He did seem confused a little, like, he wasn't sure himself, but I think I recall he added that he still didn't read the last one.

He has read it recently, I know for a fact. He read it after season two ended. Any recent interviews where asked what he thinks is in store with his character, he is also visibly depressed. Interesting to note. But yes, he HAS read all five books. And also rereads all relevant Jon chapters before shooting scenes.

[go joff go]

I actually enjoy show LF. IS he better then the books, no, but book LF would have been a hard construction to do on screen. He was simultanously looked down on by everyone and viewed as super dangerous and clever player which is one of the reasons as a reader you are in awe of him. But how do you effectively bring two incongruous characteristic together all while not having the benefit of POV characters giving him a long running monologue. Show LF would be almost indicipherable with the POV structure. People seem to think D&D dont know how to write LF, but I think they made a consious decision for him to condescend to peoples expectations of him. Everyone on the show thinks he is a dangerous but manipulatable idiot and he plays to it. Every character he is with thinnks he gets the better of him and in doing so underestimate him and make him more dangerous. Contrary to what people say he hasn't told anyone his important plans. Nothing has been even suggested about the Cat letter or PW,

Also one think I like that they have done with LF is let him test people. Every character he has met he has, whether honestly or not, given them a chance to escape the doom they face, and everyone of them has spit in his face and shown him no trust in esssence giving him a motive that is better then the pretty damn flimsy one from the book. He gave Ned, Renly, Tyrion, Cat, and Sansa a chance to trust him and they say no. Arya doesn't bother to reveal herself to him. Tywin takes his offer on the marriage but tells him he is a moron in the process. And despite the show characters thinking he is an idiot there isn't a show fan who doesn't think he is dangerous In essence the show has managed to capture the disparate Littefingers, both the guy who everyone condescends yet still make him come off as very dangerous which is when you think about not that different from the book after all. So no I don't think the show has failed on LF at all.

[Weeping Sore]

He's as subtle as a sledgehammer. I don't buy him as a successful plotter and backstabber at all.

He flat-out tells Ned Stark not to trust him either. No one would ever trust him. He's not really believable. But he's kind of great- the only one who really has true monologues, he's almost more a narrator or commentator than a true participant. He might as well have horns and a pointed tail- "Now watch what I do with this apple. I'm going to tell you it's a poisoned apple and you're still going to eat it."

Even the "play with her ass" monologue, as egregious and unnecessary and blasphemous to show cannon as it is, is sort of amazingly executed.

(I know British readers see a woman frolicking with a donkey when I write "ass", but I can't bring myself to use "arse"- a word which is for some reason really grating to me)