Do the Vale lords know Who Alayne Stone is?

[BearIslander]

What I'm positive is that Sansa is not going to marry Harry the Heir -- not after the intention was stated so explicitly. Maybe her marriage with Tyrion will work somehow in the end.

[BearIslander]

God I hope this is sarcasm because if not ...

How is she not responsible for Lady's and Ned's death? It's stated quite clearly.

I like and sympathize Sansa with all my heart, but she's done a lot of evil.

[SirRunty]

Well I ain't not no know, but, perhaps some are suspicious due to small things, like Sansa's reaction over hearing about Jon being elected Lord Commander.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

How is she not responsible for Lady's and Ned's death? It's stated quite clearly.

I like and sympathize Sansa with all my heart, but she's done a lot of evil.

Evil? What a ridiculously strong word. I prefer to save it for people who actually commit evil, like Gregor, Ramsay, Roose, etc. I don't throw it around lightly and I certainly don't aim it at 11-year-old girls.

A direwolf was going to die regardless. Sansa's word wouldn't have changed a damn thing. All Cersei would have done was say BOTH girls were lying and had the wolf killed anyway. The idea that Sansa could have stopped it is baseless. If you want to think of it as karma, fine. But Sansa telling the truth would not have saved Lady.

As for Ned's death, same thing. He was fucked the moment he told Cersei he knew the truth. Sansa didn't cause anything that wasn't happening anyway.

[Mithras]

The Lord of Runestone stood as tall as the Hound. Though his hair was grey and his face lined, Lord Yohn still looked as though he could break most younger men like twigs in those huge gnarled hands. His seamed and solemn face brought back all of Sansa’s memories of his time at Winterfell. She remembered him at table, speaking quietly with her mother. She heard his voice booming off the walls when he rode back from a hunt with a buck behind his saddle. She could see him in the yard, a practice sword in hand, hammering her father to the ground and turning to defeat Ser Rodrik as well. He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection. He never fought for Robb, why should he fight for me? The war is finished and Winterfell is fallen. “Lord Royce,” she asked timidly, “will you have a cup of wine, to take the chill off?”

Bronze Yohn had slate-grey eyes, half-hidden beneath the bushiest eyebrows she had ever seen. They crinkled when he looked down at her. “Do I know you, girl?”

All those Sansa's memories and reference to remembering, as well as the motto "We remember" and the question Do I know you girl? suggests that Bronze Yohn knows Sansa. I wonder what if Sansa said "Yes my lord, I am Sansa Stark, Littlefinger kidnapped me, murdered Lysa Arryn, please save me from him"

How long would it take Bronze Yohn to judge and execute LF with his bare hands? Would Lyn Corbray still defend LF? Would it matter a bit for Yohn the man?

I hope they give Yohn much asskicking in the show. The bolded part wets my mouth :drool:

[BearIslander]

Evil? What a ridiculously strong word. I prefer to save it for people who actually commit evil, like Gregor, Ramsay, Roose, etc. I don't throw it around lightly and I certainly don't aim it at 11-year-old girls.

Excuse me if I hurt your feelings, but I'm not a native speaker of English and may confuse words from time to time. Call it harm then, if you would.

"One need not intend harm to do it." -- Prince Baelor to Dunk

However, Sansa going to Cersei about her father's plans did play some role in Ned's fall, as Cersei herself told Tyrion later.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Lord of Runestone stood as tall as the Hound. Though his hair was grey and his face lined, Lord Yohn still looked as though he could break most younger men like twigs in those huge gnarled hands. His seamed and solemn face brought back all of Sansas memories of his time at Winterfell. She remembered him at table, speaking quietly with her mother. She heard his voice booming off the walls when he rode back from a hunt with a buck behind his saddle. She could see him in the yard, a practice sword in hand, hammering her father to the ground and turning to defeat Ser Rodrik as well. He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection. He never fought for Robb, why should he fight for me? The war is finished and Winterfell is fallen. Lord Royce, she asked timidly, will you have a cup of wine, to take the chill off?

Bronze Yohn had slate-grey eyes, half-hidden beneath the bushiest eyebrows she had ever seen. They crinkled when he looked down at her. Do I know you, girl?

All those Sansa's memories and reference to remembering, as well as the motto "We remember" and the question Do I know you girl? suggests that Bronze Yohn knows Sansa. I wonder what if Sansa said "Yes my lord, I am Sansa Stark, Littlefinger kidnapped me, murdered Lysa Arryn, please save me from him"

How long would it take Bronze Yohn to judge and execute LF with his bare hands? Would Lyn Corbray still defend LF? Would it matter a bit for Yohn the man?

I hope they give Yohn much asskicking in the show. The bolded part wets my mouth :drool:

This is interesting because much of the power Baelish has over Sansa in the Vale is in her isolation from other people and the belief that he's her only real support structure. We know that probably isn't true (the Vale lords wanted to fight with Robb and most of them surely knew Ned when he was fostered there), but as long as Sansa believes it, she's under Petyr's thumb. As soon as she realizes that she might have influence and support there by being who she really is, that's when the tide turns.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

However, Sansa going to Cersei about her father's plans did play some role in Ned's fall, as Cersei herself told Tyrion later.

Not particularly. Cersei lies, putting the glory/the blame on Sansa instead of admitting to the incest and the chance to run the Ned gave her.

That's going to be the only post on this topic in this thread from me though, not gonna derail it.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

This is interesting because much of the power Baelish has over Sansa in the Vale is in her isolation from other people and the belief that he's her only real support structure. We know that probably isn't true (the Vale lords wanted to fight with Robb and most of them surely knew Ned when he was fostered there), but as long as Sansa believes it, she's under Petyr's thumb. As soon as she realizes that she might have influence and support there by being who she really is, that's when the tide turns.

And so much of Sansa's arc seems to revolve around her initially believing herself powerless only to eventually realize/convince herself otherwise...

[Grail King]

Short answer, YES! they know, Mad Mouse will know so will Cerssi, Varys, Brienee, jamie and maybe Lady Stone Heart AKA Catelyn Stark.

[bloodofwinterfell]

I keep going back and forth about whether they know, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

• Bronze Yohn Royce seemed to recognize her. Like he said at the end of the Lord Declarants meeting, not everyone there was fooled.
  
• Anya Waynwood's line is also suspicious: "The girl is young and gently bred, and has suffered enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser."
  
• This might be nothing, but when Sansa said it was wise of Lysa to keep the Vale out of the war Myranda had an interesting reacton: "Myranda gave her a shrewd little smile. 'Yes, she was the very soul of wisdom, that good lady.'" And then almost immediately after that she brings up Jon.
  
• Sansa - who is supposedly a bastard daughter of a relatively lowborn man - knows Jon Snow's full name? And had an immediate reaction to finding out that he's the Lord Commander? I find it hard to believe she could miss that if she's as clever as Littlefinger claims she is.
  
• I've also read a post that Anya Waynwood agreeing to the betrothal to Harry the Heir is suspicious if she thinks Sansa really is Petyr's bastard.
  

The question is, if they do know, what are they going to do about it? Will they try to use her? How will Sansa and Littlefinger react once they realize this? (Ugh just talking about this makes me even more impatient to read Sansa's chapters! It's so hard to predict what's going to happen.)

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Who cares? She is indirectly responsible for Lady and Ned's death.

How is she not responsible for Lady's and Ned's death? It's stated quite clearly.

:eek:

I completely understand and sympathise her actions in the Lady incident. She wanted to tell the truth, just as she had already told Ned, but she knew that she shouldn't get on Joffrey's bad side. Lady had nothing to do with the fight, her death was Cersei's fault alone.

She was not responsible for Ned's death in any shape or form. This is just you trying to blame your favourite character's failings on someone else. Sansa told Cersei that Ned was going to send Sansa and Arya away. That is all. How did that lead to Ned's death? It didn't. Cersei knew Ned's plan because Ned told her.

The fact that people bash her for being responsible (which she wasn't) confuses me. Are you people forgetting that it was her own wolf and father who were killed? I think Sansa cares about their deaths a hell of a lot more than you do.

[bloodofwinterfell]

She was not responsible for Ned's death in any shape or form. This is just you trying to blame your favourite character's failings on someone else. Sansa told Cersei that Ned was going to send Sansa and Arya away. That is all. How did that lead to Ned's death? It didn't. Cersei knew Ned's plan because Ned told her.

If anything, all Sansa did was guarantee she would remain captive at King's Landing.* Ned was bound to be arrested because he made the stupid/noble decision to confront Cersei himself but he wasn't supposed to die, that wasn't a part of the plan. The ones responsible for his death are Joffrey, Janos Slynt, Ilyn Payne, and most likely Littlefinger.

* I am not trying to absolve Sansa of her role in what happened, but I don't think she should be blamed for Ned's death. She put Ned in a more precarious position of course, but I wouldn't put her in the top 5 of people most responsible for Ned's capture/death. And, no, I don't think Cersei's account of what happened should be taken that seriously.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I am not trying to absolve Sansa of her role in what happened,

What role?

She put Ned in a more precarious position of course,

How?

[bloodofwinterfell]

What role?How?

I don't like to rely on SSMs for analysis but GRRM sums up what I think about the situation:

"The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move."

Sansa played a role in her own captivity. In doing so she made it more difficult for Ned because Cersei was using her life as a way of getting Ned to publicly admit that he committed treason. But I personally think Ned was bound to be arrested and killed anyway, mostly because of his own doing.

I don't condemn Sansa for what she did because she had no idea what was going on. (And Lady's death is a different story - that's all on Cersei, Robert, and Joffrey.)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't like to rely on SSMs for analysis but GRRM sums up what I think about the situation:

"The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move."

Sansa played a role in her own captivity. In doing so she made it more difficult for Ned because Cersei was using her life as a way of getting Ned to publicly admit that he committed treason. But I personally think Ned was bound to be arrested and killed anyway, mostly because of his own doing.

I don't condemn Sansa for what she did because she had no idea what was going on. (And Lady's death is a different story - that's all on Cersei, Robert, and Joffrey.)

And if Ned had had any sense, he wouldn't have told his daughters anything until it was time to load them onto the boat. He had already seen that Sansa tended to side with Joffrey and the queen. Furthermore, pre-teen girls — both Sansa and Arya — are notorious motormouths. Sansa ran and told Cersei because that's what 11-year-old Sansa would obviously have done. But Ned, not Sansa, was the grown-up here and he's the one who should have been more stingy with the information.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I don't like to rely on SSMs for analysis but GRRM sums up what I think about the situation:

"The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move."

Sansa played a role in her own captivity. In doing so she made it more difficult for Ned because Cersei was using her life as a way of getting Ned to publicly admit that he committed treason. But I personally think Ned was bound to be arrested and killed anyway, mostly because of his own doing.

I don't condemn Sansa for what she did because she had no idea what was going on. (And Lady's death is a different story - that's all on Cersei, Robert, and Joffrey.)

Mmm OK then, I'll let you off. :) It's still completely unreasonable to bash her for it though.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

And if Ned had had any sense, he wouldn't have told his daughters anything until it was time to load them onto the boat. He had already seen that Sansa tended to side with Joffrey and the queen. Furthermore, pre-teen girls — both Sansa and Arya — are notorious motormouths. Sansa ran and told Cersei because that's what 11-year-old Sansa would obviously have done. But Ned, not Sansa, was the grown-up here and he's the one who should have been more stingy with the information.

Agreed. Besides, it's not like Ned can't keep a secret from his family when he really wants to...

:)

[James Arryn]

Don't want to derail. Liking the discussion before the sidetrack.

BUT, for those looking for sansa's role in Ned's fate: Sansa gives away the timing of Ned's effort to get the girls out. Even if you believe that has no effect on them getting Ned, it certainly helped them get Sansa, and as far as the Starks know, Arya.

Without whose possession they would be unable to execute Ned because the Starks hold Jaime. And without whose possession Ned does not confess.

But they have Sansa (and, in theory, Arya) which is collateral for Jaime. So they don't need to keep Ned as a bargaining chip.

Edit: kinda ninja'd. I've always found it interesting that people need Sansa to be exonerated so much they come up with odd 'Cersei lied about this part of her recap for no reason' kind of reasoning.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Don't want to derail. Liking the discussion before the sidetrack.

BUT, for those looking for sansa's role in Ned's fate: Sansa gives away the timing of Ned's effort to get the girls out. Even if you believe that has no effect on them getting Ned, it certainly helped them get Sansa, and as far as the Starks know, Arya.

Without whose possession they would be unable to execute Ned because the Starks hold Jaime. And without whose possession Ned does not confess.

But they have Sansa (and, in theory, Arya) which is collateral for Jaime. So they don't need to keep Ned as a bargaining chip.

Except that:

1. Cersei wanted Ned alive even when she thought they had possession of the girls. It wasn't a case of, "Well we have the girls, go ahead and execute Ned."

2. Robb was never going to trade Jaime for the girls together, let alone one, whereas a straight trade of Ned and Jaime was probably plausible.