How Cersei Loses her Trial by Combat ( Books 1-5 Spoilers)

[kecsek]

Loras is at death's door right now.

Well, there is the theory that he is fine, who knows. But even if he's fine I'm not sure that he can fight against Cersei's champion since he's in the Kingsguard.

[Malcolm of House Tucker]

Loras is at death's door right now.

Show me Loras's body and I'll immediately admit to being wrong. Any information we have on his current state so far has been passed on to Cersei without her (or the reader) being able to see him to confirm that any of it is true. I think the Tyrells are sheltering him to make a power play. Consider: Cersei's champion must be a member of the Kingsguard. Jaime was her obvious choice, but he is clearly not coming back for her in a timely manner. Even if he did, he is not the best man for the job because of his lack of a swordhand. Until Franken-Gregor showed up, the best sword of the Kingsguard was Loras. I think the Tyrells are lying about Loras being injured so that he will not have to be Cersei's champion. They want Cersei out of the way, and it would be a good way to get the Faith on their side by offering one of their own to fight against Cersei's champion.

[kecsek]

Show me Loras's body and I'll immediately admit to being wrong. Any information we have on his current state so far has been passed on to Cersei without her (or the reader) being able to see him to confirm that any of it is true. I think the Tyrells are sheltering him to make a power play. Consider: Cersei's champion must be a member of the Kingsguard. Jaime was her obvious choice, but he is clearly not coming back for her in a timely manner. Even if he did, he is not the best man for the job because of his lack of a swordhand. Until Franken-Gregor showed up, the best sword of the Kingsguard was Loras. I think the Tyrells are lying about Loras being injured so that he will not have to be Cersei's champion. They want Cersei out of the way, and it would be a good way to get the Faith on their side by offering one of their own to fight against Cersei's champion.

While Loras might not be injured, the news about this comes before either Queen is imprisoned. I doubt the Tyrells anticipated that HS will imprison them both and they might be better off with Loras fighting for Marg.

[Weeping Sore]

Show me Loras's body and I'll immediately admit to being wrong. Any information we have on his current state so far has been passed on to Cersei without her (or the reader) being able to see him to confirm that any of it is true. I think the Tyrells are sheltering him to make a power play. Consider: Cersei's champion must be a member of the Kingsguard. Jaime was her obvious choice, but he is clearly not coming back for her in a timely manner. Even if he did, he is not the best man for the job because of his lack of a swordhand. Until Franken-Gregor showed up, the best sword of the Kingsguard was Loras. I think the Tyrells are lying about Loras being injured so that he will not have to be Cersei's champion. They want Cersei out of the way, and it would be a good way to get the Faith on their side by offering one of their own to fight against Cersei's champion.

I'll buy that. Am I wrong, or would Cersei and Margaery get two seperate trials? The Faith as prosecution in both, Ser Robert Strong as Cersei's defense attorney, and the secretly unscathed (or lightly scathed) Loras as Marg's defender?

ETA: Or is Margaery even likely to demand a trial by combat over an ordinary trial?

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I think Loras faked his injuries to get the Redwyne Fleet home to battle Euron.

[MSUMC25]

Were not even sure UnGregor can be killed...so anyone who faces him may die. It'll be lame if the Mountain stays alive for a second time. It's time for Cersei to exiled or die. Jamie betraying her would be awesome and then they both die in Romeo and Juliet fashion and Tyrion comes back to take over Casterly Rock and restores the Lannister name.

[manting]

Jamie and Brienne leave the BwB and end up at the quiet isle. Jamie recognizes the Hound and with some convincing gets him to go to kings landing. He joins the faith militant and fights franken gregor. The hound wins. Before Cersie is executed Jamie shows up and chokes that bitch out.

[Whitering]

That woud be an interesting turn of events- but if Cersei is exonerated, that means Tommen is legitimate and the rightful king- The High Sparrow wouldn't be declaring for anyone else.

There might be time - It's possible the Faith might drag its feet a little to find a suitable champion to face unGregor.

Wait, this is not true. Cersei is getting a trial by combat for killing the previous High Septon. I don't know what the punishment was for sleeping around but I think it was the walk. Nobody, and I mean, nobody has brought forward the issue if incest yet. Tommen as King is not at issue even if Robert Strong loses his fight, somehow.

Margery's trial may not go well but unless she pulls a Tyrion and demands trial by combat before verdict is reached she has chosen a trial by the Faith. As ham handed as Cersei is I don't see her being able to influence that jury. So, you have the Blue Bard being the only confessor they can't get the truth from, but umm, let's just say, his testimony is somewhat suspect, but nevertheless, there will be much evidence given on her behalf. Pycelle dying is probably bad for her, I don't know what the Faiths ruling is on statements by people that can no longer be brought before the court, but in our world, it's a bit of a grey area.

I am pretty sure Margery loses, so I am interested to see how that happens. I just don't think any of this has anything to do with Tommen's legitimacy, other than if the Lannisters do not support the Tyrells and Margery ends up dead, that's a definite split.

[kecsek]

Wait, this is not true. Cersei is getting a trial by combat for killing the previous High Septon. I don't know what the punishment was for sleeping around but I think it was the walk. Nobody, and I mean, nobody has brought forward the issue if incest yet. Tommen as King is not at issue even if Robert Strong loses his fight, somehow.

Margery's trial may not go well but unless she pulls a Tyrion and demands trial by combat before verdict is reached she has chosen a trial by the Faith. As ham handed as Cersei is I don't see her being able to influence that jury. So, you have the Blue Bard being the only confessor they can't get the truth from, but umm, let's just say, his testimony is somewhat suspect, but nevertheless, there will be much evidence given on her behalf. Pycelle dying is probably bad for her, I don't know what the Faiths ruling is on statements by people that can no longer be brought before the court, but in our world, it's a bit of a grey area.

I am pretty sure Margery loses, so I am interested to see how that happens. I just don't think any of this has anything to do with Tommen's legitimacy, other than if the Lannisters do not support the Tyrells and Margery ends up dead, that's a definite split.

Actually Cersei is on trial for not only killing the HS, but killing Robert and the incest as well. IIRC Kevan tells her that and later he tells the Tyrells something along the lines that they better hope that Cersei is proven innocent, otherwise Margery is not queen.

[explosivedog]

Can you stop your own trial by combat by admitting your own crime?

If so, I think Lancel will champion the Faith, and when Cersei realises he's about to die, she'll suddenly have a burst of conscience and realise what's she's done to the legacy her father created, break down and admit everything, ending the trial and saving Lancel (who could be considered a little "brother" in a loose way) but condemning herself. It would be a nice form of character resolution before she dies.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

How Cersei could lose her trial by combat against the Faith.

Recall Bran's prophecy:

One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

The Hound, Jaime, Ser Robert Strong, right? A lot of people have suggested that The Hound would be The Faith's champion against unGregor.

But Sandor doesn't have the Hound helm anymore, Rorge had it untill Brienne killed him, then it was picked up by the BwB. If Brienne and Jaime get out of their current predicament and return to King's Landing, Brienne might take the helm to pose as the Hound (or just to hide her shredded face) and act as the Faith's champion. (from another thread, I forget who proposed this)

The problem is, Ser Robert Strong really is invincible. So with Brienne on the brink of death, Jaime steps in and confesses to the twincest/treason. The Septon calls the combat to a halt and Cersei is judged guilty and sentenced to die. (the hand of the valonquar)

BONUS THEORY: What's a High Septon to do in this situation? King Tommen is revealed by the trial to be a Lannister bastard, and must be removed from the throne. The High Septon would be loathe to declare for Stannis, a "demon-worshipper". If he's a Varys ally, he might declare for Aegon and open the gates of the city to the elephants.

I tend to think the High Sparrow is more of a wild card, though. If Gendry came back to King's Landing with Brienne or Jaime, the HS might legitimize Robert's firstborn, dub him the "Smith Incarnate" and place Gendry Baratheon on the Iron Throne as a puppet of the Faith. For those who say legitimizing a bastard is strictly a royal prerogative, we know the High Septon considers the Seven to be above kings, and now that he has an army he might make it his prerogative, rather than give the realm to a demon-worshipper.

Wouldn't Jaime die too? Isn't he as guilty as Cersei?

[The Manticore Knight]

I don't think Cersei will lose the trial. Her downfall will come later, but because, as Lady Nym said, "If Gregor Clegane is alive, soon or late the truth will out. The man was eight feet tall, there is not another like him in all of Westeros. If any such appears again, Cersei Lannister will be exposed as a liar before all the Seven Kingdoms."

Well, ser Gregor is not really alive, but I thinl it won't matter in this case

[aryagonnakill]

How Cersei could lose her trial by combat against the Faith.

Recall Bran's prophecy:

One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

The Hound, Jaime, Ser Robert Strong, right? A lot of people have suggested that The Hound would be The Faith's champion against unGregor.

But Sandor doesn't have the Hound helm anymore, Rorge had it untill Brienne killed him, then it was picked up by the BwB. If Brienne and Jaime get out of their current predicament and return to King's Landing, Brienne might take the helm to pose as the Hound (or just to hide her shredded face) and act as the Faith's champion. (from another thread, I forget who proposed this)

The problem is, Ser Robert Strong really is invincible. So with Brienne on the brink of death, Jaime steps in and confesses to the twincest/treason. The Septon calls the combat to a halt and Cersei is judged guilty and sentenced to die. (the hand of the valonquar)

BONUS THEORY: What's a High Septon to do in this situation? King Tommen is revealed by the trial to be a Lannister bastard, and must be removed from the throne. The High Septon would be loathe to declare for Stannis, a "demon-worshipper". If he's a Varys ally, he might declare for Aegon and open the gates of the city to the elephants.

I tend to think the High Sparrow is more of a wild card, though. If Gendry came back to King's Landing with Brienne or Jaime, the HS might legitimize Robert's firstborn, dub him the "Smith Incarnate" and place Gendry Baratheon on the Iron Throne as a puppet of the Faith. For those who say legitimizing a bastard is strictly a royal prerogative, we know the High Septon considers the Seven to be above kings, and now that he has an army he might make it his prerogative, rather than give the realm to a demon-worshipper.

I see Brans vision another way, which could lend itself to your theory. I believe it is Gregor, Sandor, and Oberyn in the vision. It makes more sense to me to have the three of them together since both Sandor and Oberyn wanted to kill gregor so badly. It would be interesting if they both did kill him, Oberyns posion and then the Hound later, and more permanently.

[Weeping Sore]

Wouldn't Jaime die too? Isn't he as guilty as Cersei?

Presumably in this scenario he would be sentenced to die as well, though perhaps he might be allowed to take the Black.

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

There won't be any trial against Cersei. With the death of Kevan Lannister she is in power again, she will act first and kill the HS.

[Urien the Ragged]

There won't be any trial against Cersei. With the death of Kevan Lannister she is in power again, she will act first and kill the HS.

doubt it. the High Septon is the most powerful person in King's Landing right now.

[Berelyn]

My main issue with Loras faking his downfall (and I will admit that is incredibly interesting and founded theory) is the specific nature of his injuries. If he was said to be stabbed near to death and then showed up in King's Landing fifteen minutes late with bowl o' brown that would be fine. However, Loras was said to have heated oil poured over him, which is bound to leave horrible scars which would heal for decades, and that's best case scenario. If he suddenly walked in non the worth for wear, everyone but Tyrells would cry foul

On the subject - I agree with those who say that Cersei losing her trial would be incredibly underwhelming and make no sense since unGregor has to properly show his strength before being put down. Personally I think that its Marge who will lose (...somehow), thus providing a catalyst for shit going down in KL as Mace attacks the Faith

[aryagonnakill]

Marge elected for a trial, so what could possibly prove her guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt so that the high septon would declare her guilty knowing the death that would follow? I really can't think of anything. But hey I'm not grrm.

[DDDUnit]

I think the Brienne wearing the helm and fighting unGregor is a cool idea, but I don't see that happening because she is pretty far away. I would like to think its Sandor for revenge's sake, but he seems to be at peace now being the grave digger at the monestary. I hate the thread that people argue Lancel Lannister will be the champion because that fight would last all of one sword swing. Other than the battle of Mereen, this fight is probably one of the most intriguing events in WoW for me. But if Dany doesn't win, GO LF!!!!

[manting]

Once again - Jamie and Brienne after dealing with whatever the Brotherhood without banners and Lady SH have in store are still in the riverlands. They end up at the Quiet Isle (perhaps to heal wounds) and jamie recognizes Sandor. After some cajoling they all head to Kings Landing where Sandor joins the faith militant and ends up defeating frankengregor. Before Cersie is to die Jamie shows up (deja vu) in the dungeons after threatening Qyburn and she confesses all her sins to him...He says he forgives her but then chokes that bitch out with his golden hand UFC style.

I think that covers all the possible prophecies