Tyrion is a good person

[David Selig]

In Westeros it's so-so. Targaryens were doing it all the time, but Cersei and Jaime are hiding it so manically, so it's probably considered a great sin, or grave abnormality in any case. And, where I come from (The Balkans), it's considered a crime. No authority, state or religious, approves marring your cousin.

Brother and sister incest is seen very differently than cousins having sex or getting married in Westeros (and in most our world too), Marriage between first cousins is normal in Westeros and not seen as incest and terrible sin.

[Miodrag]

@David Selig

+

OK, now I get what's the problem. I confused siblings with cousins in some of my previous posts. Sexual relationship with a cousin is no transgression in Westeros. I was confused because of my Balkans/orthodox Christian heritage - in matters of love and marriage, we treat siblings and cousins the same, as in, they're both off-limits.

In light of this correction, I'd certainly have to leave Lancel affair with Cersei out of his sins. Sorry, once again. In general, however, it doesn't change my judgement of Lancel that much. A little, yeah, sure. But not all the way.

ETA: I only extended Jaime's sin to Lancel, in fact. Hopefully, I won't confuse siblings and cousins in other cases.

[Zar Lannister]

A lot of people argue that Tyrion is a neutral\evil character, who has done some bad things and is only in it for his own gain and interest. This may be true for Tyrion now, but I believe that Tyrion's current self-hating, cruel and miserable state is due to all the crap that he's been through.

All I have to say is summarized in this single George Martin quote:

"We all have good in us and we all have evil in us, and we may do a wonderful good act on Tuesday and a horrible, selfish, bad act on Wednesday, and to me, that’s the great human drama of fiction. I believe in gray characters, as I’ve said before. A villain is a hero of the other side, as someone said once, and I think there’s a great deal of truth to that, and that’s the interesting thing."

Tyrion is not a good person. Tyrion is not a bad person. Tyrion is a person who does good acts or does terrible acts.

[Miodrag]

Before someone notices this omission of mine: Brienne. She's - before ADWD at least - yet another moral giant in the series, besides Ned and Jon. I can't think of any Brienne's transgression toward anyone, and she's not only a POV, but a very prominent figure, i.e. she had a lot of opportunities to create some irreparable damage without cause, and he still didn't.

In fact, she may be the best person in the series, come to think of it. Ned and Jon are without transgressions, but not without faults, nor without sins in a wider sense (too big self-pride, for example, may be something both of them suffer from). But Brienne? I can't think of any instance in which that woman done or wished anything wrong to anyone. Until ADWD, of course, because that Jaime business is yet to be revealed.

[Minsc]

But what I'm puzzled with the most, is this notion that Tyrion is a criminal/dick/psychopath whenever he doesn't act just like the perfect person would. Almost any of his actions are grey, with a possible exceptions of few acts that are morally superb and few actions that are morally outrageous. He does more than any character in the series, and his starting place is possibly the worst after Dany's, and yet, lately I see almost nothing but harsh critique of him.

No one has argued that Tyrion is a psychopath or complete monster, and he was hardly was at a terrible place at the start of the series seeing how daddy Tywin was still providing almost everything he needed. For example, I would argue that Sam was at much worse place then Tyrion.

[Miodrag]

No one has argued that Tyrion is a psychopath or complete monster, and he was hardly was at a terrible place at the start of the series seeing how daddy Tywin was still providing almost everything he needed. For example, I would argue that Sam was at much worse place then Tyrion.

I thought of main characters, from which I excluded Sam and Gendry and Hot Pie and other characters that, so far, don't play some important role in dynastic war. Smallfolks are off-limits, their trials and tribulations are unmatched in the lives of nobility. Black brothers also, based on how special their position is. And OK, Sam can be included, he's a POV after all. And if included, he was definitely worse than Tywin (due to Randyl grabbing the dubious honor of being possibly worse parent than Tywin Lannister). But, anyone else started this series in a worse position than Tyrion?

And please, let's put aside this 'he enjoyed Tywin's protection and provisions' argument. I, for one, would never ever trade places with any Lannister under no circumstances, with all their opportunities and silver-spooning, if Tywin's alive. Let alone with Tyrion. Daddy Tywin?! Yeah, right. Some daddy he is. Fucking his son's ex-whore behind his back? Yeah, he definitely had no issues with Tyrion. I mean, fucking Shae probably came out of the blue, without any previous mistreating of Tyrion, right?

[mambru]

You make some valid points. Yet, I think, what you (and others) expect is something which would be somewhat unrealistic, given what we know about the world of ASOIF. Tywin commands Cersei to marry as well, do you really believe she could have refused him, had Tywin Lannister stayed alive? I think not. When your Lord father tells you to marry, you accept, at least that's how things work out in general in those books.

We don't know what Tywin would have done to Cersei if she'd refused to marry Willas Tyrrell. We do know exactly what Tywin would have done to Tyrion if he'd refused to marry Sansa, because Tywin spelled it out for him in ASOS:

"If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who'd gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock..."

IMO, that's not a threat so fearful that it justifies Tyrion becoming Tywin's accomplice in what Tyrion ADMITTED was a cruel act, and agreeing to receive the benefits (Winterfell and a pretty bride). I think that if you choose to be an accomplice in a bad act and agree to receive the rewards of that act, you share in the guilt of the wrongdoing as well as its rewards. IMO, Tyrion was offered a clear-cut choice between a better act (refusing to participate in Tywin's forced-marriage plan) and a worse one (agreeing to help force an unwanted marriage and sex on Sansa). He agreed to the worse act even though he was not threatened with anything worse than a lower-ranking bride if he refused. Hence there was no force involved and he freely chose the worse act - and therefore, IMO, he forfeits his right to be considered an unqualified "good person" by doing so.

Which is not to say that I think Tyrion is an unqualified evil man either. He has good points. But he tends to pity himself for his hard life, and therefore to exonerate himself for everything he does wrong...and this tendency to self-pity WILL lead him to be unredeemable if he keeps it up.

[James Sucellus]

There are no good men, only good deeds.

[Miodrag]

Yes, Tyrion has good moments. We all agree on that. At least I hope so, but I'm not certain any more. And the reason I'm not certain is that some of you keep mentioning his marriage to Sansa as a heinous act, or even as participating in some bigger crime like RW.

First, his marriage to Sansa is the easiest thing to annul. The marriage wasn't consummated. By the laws of Westeros, that's a reason enough for marriage to be annulled. Hence, by refusing to bed Sansa, Tyrion gave her the possibility to disconnect from Lannisters once and for all. And he'll loose any claim to The North if that happens, and he certainly has to expect that outcome. And yet, I can't seem to remember he ever whines over it. He doesn't so much as thinks about Winterfell he lost, as I can recall, let alone to feel sorry because of the 'loss'. And yet, I don't see any of you who blame him for 'participating in the crime' giving him credit for that. If his marriage to Sansa was a participation in crime against her and her family, well, I see no sadness in Tyrion once he realizes his crime failed badly. In fact, he keeps protecting Sansa in legal proceedings after Joff's murder.

Second, and more important, he didn't participate in any crime whatsoever. Had he bedded Sansa, that would be a crime, not participation, but the crime on it's own, for the trauma he'd cause on the poor girl. But, he didn't do it. Had he participated in planing and orchestrating RW, that would be a crime against Starks. But, he did no such thing. He positioned himself - without actually hurting anyone - closer to the reward that the probable outcome of the war could result in. And what's more: in that positioning he refused to seal his position! But, positioning it was and nothing else. Hardly the most noble of acts, but hardly the most outrageous also. RW would've happened without his marriage to Sansa. It happened with no Tyrion involvement whatsoever. He probably sensed something's about to happen, but didn't (want to) know what. Jaime, after dinner with Roose, knew much more than Tyrion. If Jaime isn't guilty for not preventing RW, and I don't see anyone blaming him for it, Tyrion most certainly isn't.

On the ground of morality, the very fact that he didn't bed Sansa speaks volumes. Because of that, not a single gain from that marriage is there for him any more. And he knew it could be like that, but he still didn't want to bed her. And he doesn't feel sorry because of it at all. So, from that marriage, Sansa went out unhurt - from Tyrion at least - and The North isn't a bit worse than it should be without this marriage. So, what is Tyrion's crime in all of this? That he didn't act as honorably as Ned Stark would in a similar situation? That he acted more honorably than anyone other than Ned Stark and his children? Is that his crime?

And please don't bring Edmure, as someone did earlier in the thread, I think. Edmure is among the most noble and generous lords in the series. And yet, he had zero problems marrying and instantly bedding the girl who was crying all night, for god's sake. He didn't know the reason Roslyn cried, but her tears he saw, and I don't remember him stopping the wedding because of that.

[Minsc]

-snip-

Tyrion fully expected that soon or later that he would consummate his marriage with Sansa in how he had no idea that she was planning to escape or that LF would frame him for Joffrey's murder.

Also, he hardly acted more honorable then anyone besides Ned and his children as there are numerous characters more honorable then him.

[Miodrag]

Tyrion fully expected that soon or later that he would consummate his marriage with Sansa in how he had no idea that she was planning to escape or that LF would frame him for Joffrey's murder.

Also, he hardly acted more honorable then anyone besides Ned and his children as there are numerous characters more honorable then him.

Well, sorry, but you keep repeating that, without providing any kind of textual proof. What's more, you keep ignoring textual proof I'm pointing to. "Tyrion fully expected..." Really? Then, how come he never laments over loosing the prize you say he craved for? Yeah, everything happened much different than he planned, and yet he isn't a bit sorry because of the outcome. Some plan that must've been! I point to two universally considered honorable and generous characters - Jon and Edmure - and their reactions when faced with offers similar to the one Tyrion faced. and their reactions aren't that different. Yes, Jon ultimately resists the temptation, but Edmure accepts it enthusiastically. Edmure, the person I hold in high regard and many other readers hold in high regard - at least, when noble intentions are considered - actually acted even somewhat 'worse' than Tyrion. His marriage is also arranged over war reasons, and his wife is crying all night in front of him, and he goes on and beds her. Tyrion doesn't even lets anyone to undress Sansa! And you ignore all that. You just jeep repeating "there are numerous characters more honorable than him".

Yeah man, whatever. I'm just not interested in hate discussions, so don't mind if I pull out now. Especially because I'll go to work in four hours.

[Minsc]

Well, sorry, but you keep repeating that, without providing any kind of textual proof. What's more, you keep ignoring textual proof I'm pointing to. "Tyrion fully expected..." Really? Then, how come he never laments over loosing the prize you say he craved for?

Tyrion is bitter and angry the entire time between his wedding and PW about how the arrangement between him and Sansa and he was already starting to think about how he must only ask and she would dutifully sleep with him. Moreover, after the PW he is equally thinks of her being false and expresses resentment about their marriage. Why he isn't angry about losing Winterfell after that time comes from how in ADWD he focused only on getting Casterly Rock and could no longer care about Winterfell.

Jon and Edmure - and their reactions when faced with offers similar to the one Tyrion faced. and their reactions aren't that different. Yes, Jon ultimately resists the temptation, but Edmure accepts it enthusiastically. Edmure, the person I hold in high regard and many other readers hold in high regard - at least, when noble intentions are considered - actually acted even somewhat 'worse' than Tyrion. His marriage is also arranged over war reasons, and his wife is crying all night in front of him, and he goes on and beds her. Tyrion doesn't even lets anyone to undress Sansa! And you ignore all that. You just jeep repeating "there are numerous characters more honorable than him".

Edmure and Roslin's marriage was nothing like Tyrion and Sansa's, in particularly when looking at without knowing about the upcoming RW thus comparison is not relevant in how they are set up. Moreover, we have no idea about how Edmure acted when alone with Roslin before he consumated his marriage thus we cannot make a full judgement call on his actions.

Yeah man, whatever. I'm just not interested in hate discussions, so don't mind if I pull out now. Especially because I'll go to work in four hours.

Just because you are upset that not everyone worships Tyrion like you evidently do doesn't mean this has turned into a hate discussion, especially seeing how I never mentioned hating Tyrion.

[Summerqueen]

Yes, Tyrion has good moments. We all agree on that. At least I hope so, but I'm not certain any more. And the reason I'm not certain is that some of you keep mentioning his marriage to Sansa as a heinous act, or even as participating in some bigger crime like RW.

First, his marriage to Sansa is the easiest thing to annul. The marriage wasn't consummated. By the laws of Westeros, that's a reason enough for marriage to be annulled. Hence, by refusing to bed Sansa, Tyrion gave her the possibility to disconnect from Lannisters once and for all. And he'll loose any claim to The North if that happens, and he certainly has to expect that outcome. And yet, I can't seem to remember he ever whines over it. He doesn't so much as thinks about Winterfell he lost, as I can recall, let alone to feel sorry because of the 'loss'. And yet, I don't see any of you who blame him for 'participating in the crime' giving him credit for that. If his marriage to Sansa was a participation in crime against her and her family, well, I see no sadness in Tyrion once he realizes his crime failed badly. In fact, he keeps protecting Sansa in legal proceedings after Joff's murder.

Second, and more important, he didn't participate in any crime whatsoever. Had he bedded Sansa, that would be a crime, not participation, but the crime on it's own, for the trauma he'd cause on the poor girl. But, he didn't do it. Had he participated in planing and orchestrating RW, that would be a crime against Starks. But, he did no such thing. He positioned himself - without actually hurting anyone - closer to the reward that the probable outcome of the war could result in. And what's more: in that positioning he refused to seal his position! But, positioning it was and nothing else. Hardly the most noble of acts, but hardly the most outrageous also. RW would've happened without his marriage to Sansa. It happened with no Tyrion involvement whatsoever. He probably sensed something's about to happen, but didn't (want to) know what. Jaime, after dinner with Roose, knew much more than Tyrion. If Jaime isn't guilty for not preventing RW, and I don't see anyone blaming him for it, Tyrion most certainly isn't.

On the ground of morality, the very fact that he didn't bed Sansa speaks volumes. Because of that, not a single gain from that marriage is there for him any more. And he knew it could be like that, but he still didn't want to bed her. And he doesn't feel sorry because of it at all. So, from that marriage, Sansa went out unhurt - from Tyrion at least - and The North isn't a bit worse than it should be without this marriage. So, what is Tyrion's crime in all of this? That he didn't act as honorably as Ned Stark would in a similar situation? That he acted more honorably than anyone other than Ned Stark and his children? Is that his crime?

And please don't bring Edmure, as someone did earlier in the thread, I think. Edmure is among the most noble and generous lords in the series. And yet, he had zero problems marrying and instantly bedding the girl who was crying all night, for god's sake. He didn't know the reason Roslyn cried, but her tears he saw, and I don't remember him stopping the wedding because of that.

I suggest perusing the Tyrion reread thread, where much of what you seek is referenced along with the other stuff. .

[Miodrag]

Just because you are upset that not everyone worships Tyrion like you evidently do doesn't mean this has turned into a hate discussion, especially seeing how I never mentioned hating Tyrion.

No, I don't worship Tyrion. In fact, in this discussion of ours, it looks like I provided more examples of him doing something bad than you did. And I'm not upset, more tired. And I'm tired of one-sided argumentations, just like that one right there: "you are upset not everyone worships Tyrion like you evidently do..." Had you just read my posts more carefully, you'd see how wrong you are.

Yeah, let's crucify Tyrion because he was bitter and angry. Urgh, horrible Tyrion, horrible. Imagine, he's bitter and angry!

And about Edmure: what did he think Roslyn is crying for? Out of joy?! He has a say in his marriage just about as much as Tyrion has in his. Roslyn has none, just like Sansa. And we're not to compare the two weddings? Then what we should compare Tyrion against? Ned Stark? OK, you win, Ned would refuse at once. Jon Snow? You win again, Jon would refuse. Anyone else Ned raised? (Excluding Theon, I guess.) That's two more. Now, anyone else?

[Miodrag]

I suggest perusing the Tyrion reread thread, where much of what you seek is referenced along with the other stuff. .

http://asoiaf.wester...tyrion-vi-adwd/

It may be an interesting read. But a long one. And you read it already? Care to summarize it in a post, or any other manageable form? You know, addressing just the points raised in this discussion....

[Minsc]

And about Edmure: what did he think Roslyn is crying for? Out of joy?! He has a say in his marriage just about as much as Tyrion has in his. Roslyn has none, just like Sansa. And we're not to compare the two weddings? Then what we should compare Tyrion against? Ned Stark? OK, you win, Ned would refuse at once. Jon Snow? You win again, Jon would refuse. Anyone else Ned raised? (Excluding Theon, I guess.) That's two more. Now, anyone else?

He probably thought she was crying in how that is what brides do at their wedding. If you recall Edmure didn't want to get married but was made to as a sacrifice to appease Walder Frey with the only option being the believed doom of Robb's war campaign. Equally, while I doubt that Walder was the most loving of fathers thus he probably pressured Roslin to do it however she probably faced less threat then Sansa did if she refused.

Moreover, Edmure had no reason to believe that his marriage to Roslin was nothing more then a more traditional marriage of where the two House leaders came together in a mutual agreement to form an alliance for both their houses' benefit. Additionally, Edmure actually brought something of worth to his marriage with his status of Lord of Riverrun. These both being things that aren't true for Tyrion and his marriage.

I brought up Tyrion being bitter and angry as you were trying to argue that he didn't mind the arrangements of his marriage with Sansa about how she wouldn't sleep with him which are untrue.

[isiman]

Just so people remember, rape is frowned upon in Westeros. Hence why Randyll Tarly hangs rapists and Jon encounter them on the Wall. So people claiming rape is "normal" are clearly wrong.

The Northmen are also greatly troubled by fake Arya's treatment and Jaime remembers how awful it was not to be able to save Rhaella from Aerys when he raped her.

Wrong.

Sansa and Tyrion are married, that changes everything and makes comparisons to Tarly's justice and the wall moot.In medieval society no one cared if a wife was willing or not, her husband was the authority she had to follow; there is nothing in the books that implies Westeros is any different and it would contrast GRRM's realism approach in those type of story elements.This is especially true regarding the "claiming the maidenhead" aspect of it.Indeed, Catelyn hopes that Edmure will be gentle with Roslin, implying that he could very well not be.

Morally yes it would. Strictly legally, no.

Unless you think that westerosi laws are always correct, what is your point? The Tysha gang rape was also "legal" but does that make it morally right? Tyrion is a clever man. He certainly understands this distinction.

Are you also arguing that just because marital rape is not criminal in Westeros that it does not exist or that it is not wrong?

What makes Tysha's gang rape was legal?There is nothing in the books about that.It's about a lord that oversteps, think he is above everything and everyone, to teach his son a lesson; he does that because he knows he is powerful enough no one will challenge him, especially a poor girl's family, but there is nothing about legality (in either way) in the story.

And again, there is nothing in the text that states a man taking his wife without her consent is morally frowned upon.Obviously and hypocritically, Westerosi people hope that the wife is willing, but Catelyn's thoughts and Medieval' society proves morality doesn't factor at all.I think you are confusing sex without consent between spouses with sex with a girl barely "flowred", which is not looked upon well.In fact ruthless Tywin conceds the idea that Tyrion may wish to restrain himself from having sex with Sansa for a few years, but only after he first takes her virginity, and that really doesn't mean he should stop from taking the girl's maidenhead and that such act would be considered vile in any way.

Maybe I've just misread the chapter several times over, but I was under the impression that Tyrion didn't choose to refrain from sex with Sansa out of the goodness of his heart or to defy his father, but because he wants the fantasy. He had every intention of having sex with her. He ordered her naked, to lie on the bed and then touched her breast. He became bitter when she wasn't falling for his "in the dark, I'm the knight of flowers" speech. He can't buy the fantasy from her with gold like he could Shae and since Tyrion is in the habit of buying these things, the only currency he could offer her was a promise that he'd wait until she wanted it. He remained bitter that this currency didn't work. He most certainly would have gone for it if Sansa expressed her love and adoration, because that's what Tyrion likes and wants.

What about his refusal of the bedding cerimony?That, and his heavy drinking, might hint he was always unsure of his willingness to carry on with his father's command.

Also, the "knight of the flowers" speech might have been a way to calm and reassure Sansa, something he could very well have ignored.He is bitter about her refusal of kneeling during the cloak cerimony, but there is nothing stated in the text about other bitterness.He takes for granted that girls like Sansa won't have him willingly, but still tries occasionaly to relate to her.Which is one of the reasons Sansa has later some conflicting thoughts about him.

[Minsc]

Sansa and Tyrion are married, that changes everything and makes comparisons to Tarly's justice and the wall moot.In medieval society no one cared if a wife was willing or not, her husband was the authority she had to follow; there is nothing in the books that implies Westeros is any different and it would contrast

Robert and Cersei both seem to understand that martial rape is wrong, even if Bob was morally repugnant enough to continue to do it.

[Miodrag]

He probably thought she was crying in how that is what brides do at their wedding. If you recall Edmure didn't want to get married but was made to as a sacrifice to appease Walder Frey with the only option being the believed doom of Robb's war campaign. Equally, while I doubt that Walder was the most loving of fathers thus he probably pressured Roslin to do it however she probably faced less threat then Sansa did if she refused.

Moreover, Edmure had no reason to believe that his marriage to Roslin was nothing more then a more traditional marriage of where the two House leaders came together in a mutual agreement to form an alliance for both their houses' benefit. Additionally, Edmure actually brought something of worth to his marriage with his status of Lord of Riverrun. These both being things that aren't true for Tyrion and his marriage.

I brought up Tyrion being bitter and angry as you were trying to argue that he didn't mind the arrangements of his marriage with Sansa about how she wouldn't sleep with him which are untrue.

Where did I claim anything of a kind? Please, point to me the post in which I was "trying to argue that he didn't mind the arrangements of his marriage with Sansa about how she wouldn't sleep with him". By the time I wake up, I hope you'll realize you misread the posts in which I addressed his situation AFTER Sansa escaped.Not before the PW, like you're saying. Good night.

[Minsc]

Where did I claim anything of a kind? Please, point to me the post in which I was "trying to argue that he didn't mind the arrangements of his marriage with Sansa about how she wouldn't sleep with him". By the time I wake up, I hope you'll realize you misread the posts in which I addressed his situation AFTER Sansa escaped.Not before the PW, like you're saying. Good night.

Tyrion calls her false and is bitter against her in ADWD. Next, he doesn't care about losing Winterfell in how after killing Tywin he is focused solely on taking Casterly Rock and no longer cares about Winterfell.