Restoration Rights?

[Nictarion]

There were undoubtely bad or agressive Stark rulers. The wild, agressive Stark is actually the most probable Stark archetype in my opinion.

I'm sure there was awful ones, cruel ones, etc...

[Pikachu101]

I would just like to point out that Dany doesn't have any restoration rights . Her ancestors took Westeros by force and they lost it through force, she can't just make a comeback and demand for her throne back because it's no longer hers.

But the Starks do have restoration rights and they can expect to take the throne because people want them on the throne. Unlike Dany if they make a comeback and demand for their rights, they'll get it without much of a fight because the North is still theirs.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I am simply saying what that conflict looks like to me. Or do you thing that they were locked in a major war over a worthless pile of stone for a thousand years straight with thousands dying on both sides every year?

The Falklands Island had one year of war costing 904 men their lives. Look at the recent history of Cyprus. To an outsider a worthless pile of stone is just that, to the people fighting over it, it will be much more significant.

[Nictarion]

I would just like to point out that Dany doesn't have any restoration rights . Her ancestors took Westeros by force and they lost it through force, she can't just make a comeback and demand for her throne back because it's no longer hers.

But the Starks do have restoration rights and they can expect to take the throne because people want them on the throne. Unlike Dany if they make a comeback and demand for their rights, they'll get it without much of a fight because the North is still theirs.

I don't think anyone wanted Aegon the conqueror either, but that didn't stop him from taking it.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I love both the Starks and Dany but why is it ok for the Starks to get revenge and rebuild their home and not Dany? They both had their families brutally murdered and I don't think anyone can blame Dany for her father's crimes. The Starks were declared traitors, their home taken and they're pretty much on the run or hiding just like Dany has been for her whole life. So do they both deserve to get their homes back? OR Is one entitled but not the other?

And please no she's insane and deserves to die or go wherever crazy ppl go because there are 6799 threads for that. TY

Nobody has ever said that Daenerys isn't entitled to seek revenge. It has more to do with the fact that she bears a blind hatred of the Starks and refuses to hear the circumstances surrounding Robert's Rebellion, even when Barristan offers to tell her.

[Morienthar]

There was not 300 years of constant bloodshed. Jaehaerys I reign alone was like 50 years of paece.

Yes I know(Jaehaerys is my favorite Targ) but the peace periods were undoubtedly short,50 years is absolutely nothing in the history of Westeros.

[Nictarion]

Yes I know(Jaehaerys is my favorite Targ) but the peace periods were undoubtedly short,50 years is absolutely nothing in the history of Westeros.

Were talking about under the Targs, so 50 out of 280 something years, is a good chunk. And there was peace under other Targ kingd as well.

[Nictarion]

Nobody has ever said that Daenerys isn't entitled to seek revenge. It has more to do with the fact that she bears a blind hatred of the Starks and refuses to hear the circumstances surrounding Robert's Rebellion, even when Barristan offers to tell her.

Why can people forgive Jaime for throwing Starks out of windows, but Dany is the devil for talking bad about them?

[C0bR]

Why can people forgive Jaime for throwing Starks out of windows, but Dany is the devil for talking bad about them?

I never understood the first one...

[Morienthar]

Were talking about under the Targs, so 50 out of 280 something years, is a good chunk. And there was peace under other Targ kingd as well.

When I said 300 years of continuous blood shed I meant relative to the previous periods when Westeros was 7 separate kingdoms.

From the time lines we have at hand it seems there were 100's of years of peace between major wars.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

But the Starks in the North did not rule by power. The lords of the North are actively trying to restore them, and only do so in secret becauee the Boltons are ruling the North by force of arms. Once the lords of the North have enough power they will try and restore the Starks, as they give them legitimacy to rule over them. The Lannisters are also accepted in the Westerlands, and as far as I can tell, there are few who wish to depose them there. The Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion was the closest thing to indicate dissatisfaction with the Lannisters, but the way Tywin was able ot gather the full might of the Westerlands to crush that rebellion suggests that the Lannisters still enjoy the legitimacy as rulers of the West.

How do you know there are no secret Targaryen loyalists? They bend the knee to Robert with a sword at their throat and the lannister tyrell forces were to many to chalenge. If ppl loved Robert and friends to him why not suppose his true heir stannis? They don't want him and Tywin was what was keeping cercei's bastards on the throne, the rest of westeros will not allow a puppet bastard and former stewards to rule them.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Why can people forgive Jaime for throwing Starks out of windows, but Dany is the devil for talking bad about them?

Eh, Jaime got what he deserved, and paid the price for throwing Bran by losing his hand. The guy's done other good things that are OK in my books. The books do say that he had come to regret throwing Bran, but the reasons as to why he felt this way are a bit vague. Let's not turn this into a Jaime thread now.

I never said that Dany is the devil, and I never thought so. It's just frustrating that the truth is right in front of her, and she chooses not to listen to it. She's otherwise a level-headed girl, so it's a bit perplexing as to why she continues to bury her head in the sand. I think you're over-exaggerating a little bit, people do dislike this about Daenerys, but it's not the principal reason why receives so much hate.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

When I said 300 years of continuous blood shed I meant relative to the previous periods when Westeros was 7 separate kingdoms.

From the time lines we have at hand it seems there were 100's of years of peace between major wars.

That is because GRRM has not done an entire fictitious history of 8,000 years for multiple nations. It's impressive that he has given as much backstory as he has done, but there must be huge area's that have, and will never, be covered.

[Nictarion]

When I said 300 years of continuous blood shed I meant relative to the previous periods when Westeros was 7 separate kingdoms.

From the time lines we have at hand it seems there were 100's of years of peace between major wars.

You have to to take into account the amount of time were talking though. Roughly 10, 000 years.

[Pikachu101]

I don't think anyone wanted Aegon the conqueror either, but that didn't stop him from taking it.

And that's my point :)

Dany can't come to Westeros demanding her rights, because she doesn't have any. If she wants the throne she's going to have to fight for it, just like AtC

Unlike the Starks who have actual rights and a claim to the North. They don't need to fight for their rights, people want them

[Nictarion]

Eh, Jaime got what he deserved, and paid the price for throwing Bran by losing his hand. The guy's done other good things that are OK in my books. The books do say that he had come to regret throwing Bran, but the reasons as to why he felt this way are a bit vague. Let's not turn this into a Jaime thread now.

I never said that Dany is the devil, and I never thought so. It's just frustrating that the truth is right in front of her, and she chooses not to listen to it. She's otherwise a level-headed girl, so it's a bit perplexing as to why she continues to bury her head in the sand. I think you're over-exaggerating a little bit, people do dislike this about Daenerys, but it's not the principal reason why receives so much hate.

I actually think it is the principal reason. Of course some people will say it's the crucifixions, or the wine sellers daughter, or Daario (easily the most ridiculous reason to hate on her) but in my experience, the calling Ned the Usurpers dog is probably right at the top.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

Nobody has ever said that Daenerys isn't entitled to seek revenge. It has more to do with the fact that she bears a blind hatred of the Starks and refuses to hear the circumstances surrounding Robert's Rebellion, even when Barristan offers to tell her.

Can you blame her when she spent her whole life thinking her father did nothing wrong and these evil men usurped him from what viserys told her. And she told selmy to tell her the full truth about her father.

"Forgive me, Your Grace. It was only . . . now that you know who I am . . . " The old man hesitated. "A knight of the Kingsguard is in the king's presence day and night. For that reason, our vows require us to protect his secrets as we would his life. But your father's secrets by rights belong to you now, along with his throne, and . . . I thought perhaps you might have questions for me."

Questions? She had a hundred questions, a thousand, ten thousand. Why couldn't she think of one? "Was my father truly mad?" she blurted out. Why do I ask that? "Viserys said this talk of madness was a ploy of the Usurper's . . . "

"Viserys was a child, and the queen sheltered him as much as she could. Your father always had a little madness in him, I now believe. Yet he was charming and generous as well, so his lapses were forgiven. His reign began with such promise . . . but as the years passed, the lapses grew more frequent, until . . . "

Dany stopped him. "Do I want to hear this now?"

Ser Barristan considered a moment. "Perhaps not. Not now."

"Not now," she agreed. "One day. One day you must tell me all. The good and the bad. There is some good to be said of my father, surely?"

"There is, Your Grace. Of him, and those who came before him. Your grandfather Jaehaerys and his brother, their father Aegon, your mother . . . and Rhaegar. Him most of all."

"I wish I could have known him." Her voice was wistful.

"I wish he could have known you," the old knight said. "When you are ready, I will tell you all."

Dany kissed him on the cheek and sent him on his way.

[Nictarion]

Unlike the Starks who have actual rights and a claim to the North. They don't need to fight for their rights, people want them

Good for them.

[C0bR]

How do you know there are no secret Targaryen loyalists? They bend the knee to Robert with a sword at their throat and the lannister tyrell forces were to many to chalenge. If ppl loved Robert and friends to him why not suppose his true heir stannis? They don't want him and Tywin was what was keeping cercei's bastards on the throne, the rest of westeros will not allow a puppet bastard and former stewards to rule them.

Sword at their throat? Tyrells dropped their swords before they even saw Ned's horse on the horizont. Hell, they probably even did not have swords in their hands, because they were out there chilling with wine and meat, not giving a damn about seizing Storm's End, a move that might have ended the war.

Let's resume the so called Targ Loyalists and Rebels:

Rebels:

- Ned and Bob are branded traitors, Jon Arryn supports them, although his honor might have been telling him the to be loyal to the throne, rebels though without hesitation

- Hoster Tully, a man that should've been probably the most loyal one, since his House was installed by Targs and his lands were closest to the capital, joins the Rebellion as fast as he can, not giving his King and Prince a second thought

Firmly loyal to Targs:

- Crownlands - lands around the capital, they can hardly do anything else than rally to Aerys

- Some riverlords, those closest to Crownlands mainly

Mildly "loyal" to Targs:

- Gulltown - Lord Grafton rallies the loyal houses around Gulltown to prevent Bob from sailing to Storm's End. Once he is killed, we don't hear about those loyalists ever again

- some Storm Lords - Robert wins them all over in one day and they are happy to die for him just few days later

- Tyrells - they let Robert (probably purposely) slip through their fingers while marching as slow as possible, I already said what I think about their "Siege of Storm's End"

- Dorne - lending only 10k spears and only because Elia is held in KL, if Elia was in Dorne, they would not lend a single spear and that is with Elia being a future Queen and Aegon, half dornishman, being the heir to the Iron Throne

And I ask – where is the loyalty?

[Morienthar]

That is because GRRM has not done an entire fictitious history of 8,000 years for multiple nations. It's impressive that he has given as much backstory as he has done, but there must be huge area's that have, and will never, be covered.

From the time lines we have at hand I never said we knew it all but I believe GRRM has highlighted the major events of the time period.