R+L=J v.55

[Alia of the knife]

Not sure about the content of the interview, but I wonder if the book wasn't The Distant Mirror by Barbara Tuchman? It's the go to popular history book about the 14th century.

I agree that GRRM uses a tremendous amount of historical realism to augment his "fantasy" storytelling. IMO, that's what makes him so great :)

You know, that might be it.

I think it had "mirror" in the title because it reminded me of the title of the book "Through a Glass Darkly," but that book wasn't about the fourteenth century.

Thanks Lady Gwynhyfvar!, :bowdown: and hope all was well on your trip. :cheers:

[FrozenFire3]

You know, that might be it.

I think it had "mirror" in the title because it reminded me of the title of the book "Through a Glass Darkly," but that book wasn't about the fourteenth century.

Thanks Lady Gwynhyfvar!, :bowdown: and hope all was well on your trip. :cheers:

It should be the one. GRRM lists it amongst his research sources for ASoIaF: http://www.georgerrmartin.com/for-fans/faq/

A few tidbits from the last issues of GoT comics.

Two very different covers for issue #13... or are they? Little background details (towers, snow/petals falls) make me wonder:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/bfc5ca267640935

http://www.imagebam.com/image/fc352b267640977

A very interesting passage from issue#14, with Ned's thoughts slightly changed from the book version ('He will kill them all, Ned realized.').

Emphasis here is on... well, emphasis: 'He would kill them all, even the children. Especially the children.'

http://www.imagebam.com/image/a5eb72267640894

Last but not least, Ned dreaming of Rhaegar's children. I will not post the link 'cause the scene is quite disturbing (in case pm me). Rhaenys' look is indeed more Dornish than Targaryen. Her hair is a much darker shade than Aegon's. Interesting enough, Aegon's hair seems to be a bit darker then Rhaegar's...

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

I am currently re-reading AGOT, and it seems like there are a lot of hints dropped about Jon and I think it established he is definitely a Stark, but not necessarily Ned's.

He gets a direwolf and there is no denying his connection to his wolf is as strong (if not stronger) than the "true-born" Starks'

We could as well take Ghost as a sort of sign...The fact that Jon got a direwolf proves he is half a Stark and the fact that Ghost is white and has red eyes could hint us that Jon is indeed half a Targ (White for the white/blond hair of the Targaryens and red for the colour of their sigil and their words which have the word "blood" inside which could mean the joining of Ice and Fire, white and red)

[Alia of the knife]

It should be the one. GRRM lists it amongst his research sources for ASoIaF: http://www.georgerrm...m/for-fans/faq/

A few tidbits from the last issues of GoT comics.

Two very different covers for issue #13... or are they? Little background details (towers, snow/petals falls) make me wonder:

http://www.imagebam....bfc5ca267640935

http://www.imagebam....fc352b267640977

A very interesting passage from issue#14, with Ned's thoughts slightly changed from the book version ('He will kill them all, Ned realized.').

Emphasis here is on... well, emphasis: 'He would kill them all, even the children. Especially the children.'

http://www.imagebam....a5eb72267640894

Last but not least, Ned dreaming of Rhaegar's children. I will not post the link 'cause the scene is quite disturbing (in case pm me). Rhaenys' look is indeed more Dornish than Targaryen. Her hair is a much darker shade than Aegon's. Interesting enough, Aegon's hair seems to be a bit darker then Rhaegar's...

As always thanks so much for being awesome, and thanks for the links. :bowdown:

I will put them some place safe and where I can find it.

This will definitely satisfy my need to read.

[Ghost's Shadow]

If Jon were to leave the Wall, I wonder where that Raven is going to go. Or perhaps another one will show up to sit on his shoulder. :lol:

He seems to be depicted a lot with it, so yes, it's a very important Raven. :D

[the_one_who_was_promised]

By the way Jon takes after Ned more than anyone. He acts a lot like him, probably because he was raised by him. I don't think Jon takes after Rhaegar to much. Not that we really know him that well, but Jon clearly has the whole Stark way of doing things. Martin named them the Starks for a reason.

I actually think that is a red herring tbh.

When describing Jon's outward appearance, we are almost fooled into believing that Jon looks like Ned - yet through Arya, he is indirectly compared to Lyanna, hinting that he looks like her.

I think the same might be happening in relation to his personality.

Given Ned's legendary reputation and Jon's integrity and courage, we could be forgiven for thinking that he is Ned's boy through and through, but his personality could actually be inherited from another apparently well respected and honourable fellow, Rhaegar.

We haven't had any hints yet in the same way as we have had hints of Jon resembling Lyanna, but I wouldn't be surprised that we may get clues further down the line of Jon's honour indirectly being compared to Rhaegar.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I once 'dared' so say that The Ned and Rhaegar had some similar character traits (meaning as possibly seen in Jon).

It wasn't pretty, what followed.

[JonNonRegis]

When describing Jon's outward appearance, we are almost fooled into believing that Jon looks like Ned

Fooled? Jon does look greatly like Ned. There's no doubt about it.

Here's what Ned himself has to say on the subject: "Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own."

his personality could actually be inherited from another apparently well respected and honourable fellow, Rhaegar.

I'm doubtful of the idea of inherited personalities in general, but Jon repeatedly shows Ned's strong influence in his choices and behavior.

Here's a clear instance: "Edd, fetch me a block."

This notion -- that Jon should personally behead someone on whom he has passed sentence -- Jon surely did not inherit from Rhaegar Targaryen. Gotta side with Creighton on this one.

[Nami]

Well, Arya have the "wolf-blood" which means a hot temper that runs in the Stark family, so yes, I think GRRM plays with personality traits inheritance

The fetch me a block thing came from Jon being raised by Ned and seeing how he did things, it's not a personality trait

Jon is:

brooding

deep thinker

deliberate

kind of melancholy

All these things that was also part of Rhaegar's personality. Coincidence?

I'm stubborn, like my father. Could it be that he passed that on to me?

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Fooled? Jon does look greatly like Ned. There's no doubt about it.

Here's what Ned himself has to say on the subject: "Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own."

"Fooled" was rather the incorrect choice of words to use IMO. What I meant and should have said is that, perhaps, there might have been too much emphasis on his resemblance to Ned, to possibly disguise the fact that he could have got the "Stark" look from Lyanna.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

The fetch me a block thing came from Jon being raised by Ned and seeing how he did things, it's not a personality trait

Jon is:

brooding

deep thinker

deliberate

kind of melancholy

All these things that was also part of Rhaegar's personality. Coincidence?

I'm stubborn, like my father. Could it be that he passed that on to me?

Yes, this is exactly what I meant, and should have alluded to in my previous post.

[Ghost's Shadow]

It's okay, I think you did just fine. :D

Ned got very, very lucky there. And so did Jon, I suppose.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Rereading Bran's weirwood visions in ADwD to comment in another thread and I noticed something. Bran sees Ned praying to the tree

"...let them grow up close as brothers with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive."

(italics mine)

Perhaps it's been commented on before, or maybe I'm over analyzing (lol- imagine?) but... if Robb and Jon were actually half-brothers would he phrase his prayer in quite that way? Just wondering if anyone else thinks this is another one of those little winks from GRRM?

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Rereading Bran's weirwood visions in ADwD to comment in another thread and I noticed something. Bran sees Ned praying to the tree

(italics mine)

Perhaps it's been commented on before, or maybe I'm over analyzing (lol- imagine?) but... if Robb and Jon were actually half-brothers would he phrase his prayer in quite that way? Just wondering if anyone else thinks this is another one of those little winks from GRRM?

I've heard someone else mention it before too.. It is certainly an odd comment to make in respect of two young boys who were actually half-brothers - indeed, it's probably not the sort of thing you would say about two half-brothers at all.

It is similar to the comment he makes in relation to Jon being his "blood" - whilst not acknowledging that Jon is his son in that particular segment, he nevertheless affirms that he is a member of his family. I think it's the same here.

Anyone who doesn't over - analyse this section could read this to mean that Ned hopes that Robb will overcome any prejudices he may or may not have and accept Jon as if he were his full brother, all the while hoping that Catelyn will forgive him for his betrayal with another woman.

However, given all the other torrent of clues, for me, it just serves as another in a long list of clues that R+L=J.

Ned, hoping for Catelyn's forgiveness to me, indicates that he hopes that she can forgive him for the "lie that has cost him so dearly".

[Jon Icefyre]

"Fooled" was rather the incorrect choice of words to use IMO. What I meant and should have said is that, perhaps, there might have been too much emphasis on his resemblance to Ned, to possibly disguise the fact that he could have got the "Stark" look from Lyanna.

Oh I agree with you, there definitely is on some level. Ppl like JonNonRegis love to bring up the fact that Jon seemed to closely resemble Ned, but at the same time they hate to also bring up the fact that all of Ned's other son's looked like Tullys. So if Jon has general Stark features of course it's gonna seem like he looks a lot more like Ned when compared to Ned's other sons who all had general Tully features. These same ppl seem to forget that the text also says that Jon resembled Arya the most out of any of his other siblings and Ned himself has said that Arya strongly resembles Lyanna. So if Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya, one could easily argue that Jon resembles Lyanna.

[Joe Pine]

Going back to previous R+L=J threads, there was speculation on Rhaegar and Lyanna going to the Isle of Faces to go to a Weirwood Tree in some way to make then 'married' for Jon to be legitimate.

How about Arya passing their rowing boat before she ends up in Harrenhal?

Arya IV in ACOK

'To her right, a long pier jutted out into the lake, and there were other docks further east, wooden fingers reaching out from town. But the only boat in view was an upside-down rowboat abandoned on the rocks beneath the inn, it's bottom thoroughly rotted out. "They're gone," Arya said, dejected, What would they do now.

Possible?

[WhiteOwl18]

Going back to previous R+L=J threads, there was speculation on Rhaegar and Lyanna going to the Isle of Faces to go to a Weirwood Tree in some way to make then 'married' for Jon to be legitimate.

How about Arya passing their rowing boat before she ends up in Harrenhal?

Arya IV in ACOK

'To her right, a long pier jutted out into the lake, and there were other docks further east, wooden fingers reaching out from town. But the only boat in view was an upside-down rowboat abandoned on the rocks beneath the inn, it's bottom thoroughly rotted out. "They're gone," Arya said, dejected, What would they do now.

Possible?

Oh, I love that! Nice catch!

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Going back to previous R+L=J threads, there was speculation on Rhaegar and Lyanna going to the Isle of Faces to go to a Weirwood Tree in some way to make then 'married' for Jon to be legitimate.

How about Arya passing their rowing boat before she ends up in Harrenhal?

Arya IV in ACOK

'To her right, a long pier jutted out into the lake, and there were other docks further east, wooden fingers reaching out from town. But the only boat in view was an upside-down rowboat abandoned on the rocks beneath the inn, it's bottom thoroughly rotted out. "They're gone," Arya said, dejected, What would they do now.

Possible?

@Red Queen - ditto.

You could be on to something there.. Imagine if there was further proof of the marriage lying somewhere there as well?

[Joe Pine]

@Red Queen - ditto.

You could be on to something there.. Imagine if there was further proof of the marriage lying somewhere there as well?

It perhaps means a POV character going onto the island. I'm not sure which one would.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Going back to previous R+L=J threads, there was speculation on Rhaegar and Lyanna going to the Isle of Faces to go to a Weirwood Tree in some way to make then 'married' for Jon to be legitimate.

How about Arya passing their rowing boat before she ends up in Harrenhal?

Arya IV in ACOK

'To her right, a long pier jutted out into the lake, and there were other docks further east, wooden fingers reaching out from town. But the only boat in view was an upside-down rowboat abandoned on the rocks beneath the inn, it's bottom thoroughly rotted out. "They're gone," Arya said, dejected, What would they do now.

Possible?

Nice catch! Very likely the rowboat is significant. It may have something to do with RLJ, although based on the location of the town where it was found I think it's equally possible it is related to Dunk & Egg, as their last known location was Whitewalls, which was actually quite close to the holdfast Yoren, Arya & co encounter.

I favor Lyanna's disappearance occurring from the Crossroads Inn, which is well north of God's Eye. Nothing to prevent them traveling south around the lake though, so your theory remains quite possible.