R+L=J v.55

[Ygrain]

Stannis Lives' theory about Shireen being sacrificed by Mel and this somehow involving Jon being reborn makes the most sense of the theories I've read of why GRRM would have included her character, given her greyscale and gotten her to the Wall. I mean, otherwise, from a story-telling perspective, what purpose is served by all that? Also, fair point that Jon got the other people with King's blood (except himself) away from Mel, but probably never thought Stannis would allow his own daughter to be burned. Too bad Daddy's away and crazy zealot Mom is there. And I can see Mel thinking, if Stannis was dead or hurt or in trouble, that the sacrifice of AAR's own child would be even more powerful.

So that we could have an outbreak of greyscale from two centres, north and south.

Personally, I'd love to see Shireen cleansed of greyscale by dragonfire and becoming the third rider - she's not a Targ, she's Baratheon, yet is of the lineage :P

[J. Stargaryen]

"Raise dragons from stone" could also mean, quite literally, reviving the Targaryen dynasty and continuing the Targaryen line. If so, both Dany and Jon could still be candidates - although I usually preferthe more subtle candidate here ;)

That too.

Thanks for the warm welcome everybody! :)

And thanks FrozenFire3 for pointing out J. Stargaryen's post. I meant to credit but spaced apparently :bang: It's been corrected now.

<snip>

No worries. Welcome to the forums. :)

[finger]

When the red star bleeds - Ser Patrek's bloody body with stars in the sky

and darkness gathers, - winter is coming per the white raven

Azor Ahai shall be born amidst smoke and salt - Bowen's tears and Jon's wound

to wake dragons out of stone. -Shireen has the stone man's disease and has king's blood. Jon will be on the verge of death and Mel will sacrifice Shireen to save Jon, fulfilling the prophecy and Jon will be reborn as AA.

I wonder if things can sometimes be straightforward

When the red star bleeds = the comet

and darkness gathers, - winter is coming and the Others strike

Azor Ahai shall be born amidst smoke and salt - in Dragonstone; some depictions:

"a smoking stone in the great salt see"

"surrounded by storm and salt, with the smoking shadow of the mountain at its back"

to wake dragons out of stone. = hatch dragons from three stone eggs

Everything points to Danaerys, but a vision in the House of the Undying: "He (for Aegon) is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He and his, not she and her.

It's a conundrum, but the "the dragon has three heads". AAR might not one only person, but the remnants of the Targaryen; Aegon, Danaerys and Jon.

Or the vision is a lie. But if it's true, the content is very clear.

Otoh, when Jon is stabbed, its the wildings who hold the trumping hand. I guess Jon depends on them to be saved. (Maybe Dun Dun keep the NW brothers from killing Jonand he's just badly hurt, but recovers.) It'll rather be Val who kills Shireen (or has her killed), to protect "monster" from greyscale.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Becasue its doesn't make sense in the first place.

Why would Rhaegar, busy with urgent the war effort, be tellig a 7 year old ratbag kid about Lyanna? And as you say, why is nothing else known?

Its blatantly obvious that Dany's story is merely Robert's story, drifted across to Essos, and 'adapted' to make it more palatable for young Targaryen ears.

You might be right. But if you are, this raises more questions than it answers. We know that Rhaegar was in King's Landing with (among others) Willem Darry and Rhaella for several weeks before he left for the Battle of the Trident. Both Darry and Rhaella were with Viserys for months on Dragonstone, and Darry stayed with Viserys and Daenerys for years after that. But you are suggesting that neither of them ever heard Rhaegar's side of the story. I think that would be very wierd.

Think about it like this. We know what Robert's propanda was for the war because Bran explains it with reference to Lyanna:

Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back."

Against this, Aerys was motivating his troops with threats. He kept Tywin Lannister at bay by holding Jaime hostage. He got Llewyn Martell to lead the Dornish troops and to fight with Rhaegar at the Trident by reminding him that Elia was a hostage.

You would think that, when Rhaegar arrived in King's Landing to take charge of the Targaryen troops, the first thing he would do (after freeing his wife and children from Aerys) would be to explain his side of the story.

If his side of the story was "I'm the blood of the dragon, everyone has to obey me" then that is one thing. If it was that he rescued Lyanna from Robert, they got married and had a royal heir on the way, he would have spread that story far and wide. Jaime, Barristan, Rhaella, Willem Darry -- and Daenerys -- would all have heard it.

That is why I think it is wierd that Daenerys thinks Rhaegar rescued Lyanna from Robert but seems to have no idea about the love story/ marriage/ pregnancy.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Didn't Rhaella leave for Dragonstone about 7 or 8 months before Dany's birth does that make it before or after Rhaegar's death?

IRRC, Rhaella was evacuated to Dragonstone after the news of the defeat at the Trident reached KL, nine months before Dany was born.

Yep, from AGoT chapter 3:

She had been born nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart

Indicating that the flight from KL occurred very shortly after her conception. This is substantiated by Jaime's memories of Aerys raping Rhaella on the night he burned Chelsted and raised Rossart to Hand in AFfC chapter 16, and Tyrion's statement in ACoK chapter 3 that Rossart was Hand for a fortnight. In ASoS Jaime states that Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone when he received the news about the defeat at the Trident (see below) In Feast, he merely recalls that the day Rhaella left for Dragonstone she went to the ship cloaked and hooded to cover injuries. Oddly (or not?), Jaime recalls a morning departure while Viserys (in Game) speaks of a dramatic "midnight flight."

What puzzles me (yes, I have mentioned this before) is that Jaime recalls in ASoS chapter 37 that all of his sworn brothers were away when Chelsted was burned

"...Aerys burnt him alive for that, and hung his chain about the neck of Rossart, his favorite pyromancer. The man who had cooked Lord Rickard Stark in his own armor. And all the time, I stood by the foot of the Iron Throne in my white plate, still as a corpse, guarding my liege and all his sweet secrets.

"My Sworn Brothers were all away you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." [...] "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the Queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys..."

yet in AFfC chapter 16 he states

The day [Aerys] burned his mace and dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry stood at guard outside [Rhaella's] bedchamber whilst the King took his pleasure...

While I'm sure the implication is merely that Jaime is an unreliable POV, I can't help but wonder if there is some other hint hiding there.

Not necessarily. Rhaegar was at KL for some time prior he left for the Trident, and Rhaella, who probably would have been one to whom Rhaegar might have confided at least some of what had happened, was a possible source for passing the version "Rhaegar died for the woman he loved" to Viserys (definitely adapted, yes).

This. See the full text of Dany's "memories" via Viserys in AGoT chapter 3. Clearly he heard the stories from someone and conveyed them to Dany. My guess is that his mother had a number of months (nine, to be exact ;)) to pass on the story of the fall of their House to her surviving son as she awaited her confinement on Dragonstone.

That is why I think it is wierd that Daenerys thinks Rhaegar rescued Lyanna from Robert but seems to have no idea about the love story/ marriage/ pregnancy.

Unless Rhaegar rescued Lyanna from Aerys ;)

[Jon Icefyre]

You might be right. But if you are, this raises more questions than it answers. We know that Rhaegar was in King's Landing with (among others) Willem Darry and Rhaella for several weeks before he left for the Battle of the Trident. Both Darry and Rhaella were with Viserys for months on Dragonstone, and Darry stayed with Viserys and Daenerys for years after that. But you are suggesting that neither of them ever heard Rhaegar's side of the story. I think that would be very wierd.

We don't know that he was in KL for 'several' weeks prior to the Trident, it seems more to me that he was only there for a few days before he headed off to the Trident, keeping in mind that he would've had the thought of a pregnant Lyanna stuck at the TOJ on his mind....

Think about it like this. We know what Robert's propanda was for the war because Bran explains it with reference to Lyanna:

Against this, Aerys was motivating his troops with threats. He kept Tywin Lannister at bay by holding Jaime hostage. He got Llewyn Martell to lead the Dornish troops and to fight with Rhaegar at the Trident by reminding him that Elia was a hostage.

You would think that, when Rhaegar arrived in King's Landing to take charge of the Targaryen troops, the first thing he would do (after freeing his wife and children from Aerys) would be to explain his side of the story.

If his side of the story was "I'm the blood of the dragon, everyone has to obey me" then that is one thing. If it was that he rescued Lyanna from Robert, they got married and had a royal heir on the way, he would have spread that story far and wide. Jaime, Barristan, Rhaella, Willem Darry -- and Daenerys -- would all have heard it.

That is why I think it is wierd that Daenerys thinks Rhaegar rescued Lyanna from Robert but seems to have no idea about the love story/ marriage/ pregnancy.

No he wouldn't have spread the story far and wide until he was absolutely sure the royalist would win the rebellion, which means he would've waited until after the battle of the Trident before he made anything public about him and Lyanna. The Dornish were already pissed at him for his treatment of Elia, so why the hell would Rhaegar go around spreading the story about him and Lyanna getting married and having a child on the way knowing full well if the Dornish found out he could lose all of their support which he would've most definitely needed for the battle of the Trident. According to SSM even though Aerys was able to use Elia as leverage against the Dornish, they still didn't support Rhaegar strongly at the Trident in part because of his treatment of Elia, so how do you think they would've reacted to the news of a second marriage and child on the way? No, the smart thing for Rhaegar to do would've been to remain silent about it until the rebels were defeated and he was able to unseat his father. The fact that the Royalist needed the Dornish so badly for the battle of the Trident means it would've been foolish for Rhaegar to do anything to upset them anymore than he already had, but once the battle would've been over and the rebels defeated, well then the Dornish wouldn't have been seen quite as much of threat seeing as though they would've already served their purpose at the Trident and therefore would've had nothing they could use against Rhaegar.

It makes a lot more sense for Rhaegar to wait until he unseated his father and became king to make his relationship status with Lyanna and their child known to anyone let alone the general public, because he would've been far less likely to receive backlash or resistance from the Dornish or whoever as the king and ruling monarch, than he would as a prince......So no, I don't think Rhaegar would've told anyone other than the KG that already knew before the battle of the Trident....

[Ghost's Shadow]

New around here though R+L=J has been my favorite theory for a while.

Welcome to the forum! Love the name and avvie!

As for your post, there's a lovely gem in the books of Jon being legitimate, if you believe that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

In ASoS, right after Meera tells Bran the story of the KotLT, there's:

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. “Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?”

Close enough. The Prince won and married the KotLT.

[The Loyal Rogue]

Stannis Lives' theory about Shireen being sacrificed by Mel and this somehow involving Jon being reborn makes the most sense of the theories I've read of why GRRM would have included her character, given her greyscale and gotten her to the Wall. I mean, otherwise, from a story-telling perspective, what purpose is served by all that? Also, fair point that Jon got the other people with King's blood (except himself) away from Mel, but probably never thought Stannis would allow his own daughter to be burned. Too bad Daddy's away and crazy zealot Mom is there. And I can see Mel thinking, if Stannis was dead or hurt or in trouble, that the sacrifice of AAR's own child would be even more powerful.

Yeah, so I'm totally sold on this.

If that does happen, or something similar, I wonder if Jon is reborn with the knowledge of who his parents really are, perhaps from some Ghost/Bran conversations/visions? I mean, does he come back fully aware of who he is and all that? Or does he not yet get the implications? I've been assuming Howland Reed must show up at some point, but perhaps that isn't necessary for Jon to know so much as the Realm/North.

here is my problem with this theory: it relies on Mel being the one to interpret the prophecy correctly. from the beginning, i feel she is shown as never being quite right and trying to force her interpretation of everything. she is powerful and very skilled in magic, but that does not mean she is clever, just good at learning what she is taught.

of course, that means she will probably get to try it out. i think the theory is strong enough, and favorable enough to Mel's character, that it could reasonably be presented in the story as her theory as well. thus she would still sacrifice Shireen, but imagine the results would not closely resemble her original stated hypothesis. though that could be by design to her as well. she is obviously playing with the darker side of things, which draws her entire stated set of goals into question. she sacrifices too much of others and tends to play more with smoke than fire. add to that the fact that what she preaches is not the same as the message presented by Thoros, and i just can't by her being fully on the side of light.

[sabrecmc]

That's a fair point, Loyal Rogue. I'm not thrilled with the idea of burning a child leading to anything good, even Jon being reborn or whatever. But, I can see it having very unforeseen consequences beyond that as well. I don't know, but it wraps up a seemingly random character nicely. And dear George has been hinting at something like that with Dany's child hostages and Edric Storm. Maybe by allowing that, the NW finally isn't true and this precipitates the Wall falling. I don't know.

[Alia of the knife]

It is still "dragons" plural. Now if you want to claim that Jon has more than one inner dragon :) If you want two inner dragons, it will have to be Dany as well as Jon, or perhaps Young Griff as well or in place of one or the other. That you omitted Daenerys in your list speaks volumes, however, have you forgotten that she is a dragon in the metaphorical sense? If so, are you not just begging the question at issue?

Anyway, sorry about "cheating", I should have found a more polite word.

That's okay, I'm not easily offended.

But on Dany, I didn't think I needed to include her when she herself spoke of "waking the dragon" in reference to her becoming angry, so again, I think of it as much of a metaphor for emotion, or truth as a literal act.

[Alia of the knife]

here is my problem with this theory: it relies on Mel being the one to interpret the prophecy correctly. from the beginning, i feel she is shown as never being quite right and trying to force her interpretation of everything. she is powerful and very skilled in magic, but that does not mean she is clever, just good at learning what she is taught.

of course, that means she will probably get to try it out. i think the theory is strong enough, and favorable enough to Mel's character, that it could reasonably be presented in the story as her theory as well. thus she would still sacrifice Shireen, but imagine the results would not closely resemble her original stated hypothesis. though that could be by design to her as well. she is obviously playing with the darker side of things, which draws her entire stated set of goals into question. she sacrifices too much of others and tends to play more with smoke than fire. add to that the fact that what she preaches is not the same as the message presented by Thoros, and i just can't by her being fully on the side of light.

It's been awhile since I read those chapters, but while she thinks Jon is significant, I don't think she senses anything as it relates to a hidden identity about him, or a specialness to him.

Just as she got the grey mare vision with his "sister" being on it's back wrong, what she does with Shireen as it relates to Jon will also not be what she suspected.

In that way, it's not what she thinks that matters, but what her actions ultimately result in.

Typically, fulfillment of prophesy is an accident of fate anyway. History is full of zealots who think they can bring about fulfillment of prophesy.

You see the same themes in "Dune" where the main character fulfills his destiny and "prophesy," but in that case, by a lack of premeditation.

Since Martin has been said to not be fond of organized religion,(though I think he is spiritual), and what it historically has brought with it in terms of religious fanaticism, that is a point he may be trying to make with all of these visions, prophesies from different cultures looking for one person, and the mistakes made in trying to interpret them.

[Stannis Lives]

here is my problem with this theory: it relies on Mel being the one to interpret the prophecy correctly. from the beginning, i feel she is shown as never being quite right and trying to force her interpretation of everything. she is powerful and very skilled in magic, but that does not mean she is clever, just good at learning what she is taught.

of course, that means she will probably get to try it out. i think the theory is strong enough, and favorable enough to Mel's character, that it could reasonably be presented in the story as her theory as well. thus she would still sacrifice Shireen, but imagine the results would not closely resemble her original stated hypothesis. though that could be by design to her as well. she is obviously playing with the darker side of things, which draws her entire stated set of goals into question. she sacrifices too much of others and tends to play more with smoke than fire. add to that the fact that what she preaches is not the same as the message presented by Thoros, and i just can't by her being fully on the side of light.

I agree. I think this is a good point and leaves the end result of the same action open for interpretation. I wouldn't be surprised either way.

It's been awhile since I read those chapters, but while she thinks Jon is significant, I don't think she senses anything as it relates to a hidden identity about him, or a specialness to him.

Just as she got the grey mare vision with his "sister" being on it's back wrong, what she does with Shireen as it relates to Jon will also not be what she suspected.

In that way, it's not what she thinks that matters, but what her actions ultimately result in.

Typically, fulfillment of prophesy is an accident of fate anyway. History is full of zealots who think they can bring about fulfillment of prophesy.

You see the same themes in "Dune" where the main character fulfill his destiny and "prophesy," but in that case, by a lack of premeditation.

Since Martin has been said to not be fond of organized religion,(though I think he is spiritual), and what it historically has brought with it in terms of religious fanaticism, so that is a point he may be trying to make with all of these visions, prophesies from different cultures looking for one person, and the mistakes made in trying to interpret them.

:agree: That's exactly why I think the signs are subtle. Everyone was trying to force the prophecy when it was really just a metaphorical spontaneous occurrence and congregation of multiple subtle signs. I do think it's possible however that Mel's forced attempts at recreating the prophecy actually ends up with her unintentionally fulfilling a part of the prophecy for Lightbringer. As previously mentioned, Jon may be so horrified at Shireen's sacrifice to save him, that he stabs Mel in the heart with Longclaw. It may not miraculously create lightbringer but it may metaphorically complete the prophecy.

[Alia of the knife]

I agree. I think this is a good point and leaves the end result of the same action open for interpretation. I wouldn't be surprised either way.

:agree: That's exactly why I think the signs are subtle. Everyone was trying to force the prophecy when it was really just a metaphorical spontaneous occurrence and congregation of multiple subtle signs. I do think it's possible however that Mel's forced attempts at recreating the prophecy actually ends up with her unintentionally fulfilling a part of the prophecy for Lightbringer. As previously mentioned, Jon may be so horrified at Shireen's sacrifice to save him, that he stabs Mel in the heart with Longclaw. It may not miraculously create lightbringer but it may metaphorically complete the prophecy.

True, but how possible that it's Mel herself that is Lightbringer?

In the metaphysical and metaphorical sense, she is trying to "bring light into the world," and given how many she has sacrificed to forge the right "sword,", it seems plausible that that too is an unexpected result of her own deliberate behaviors.

[Stannis Lives]

True, but how possible that it's Mel herself that is Lightbringer?

In the metaphysical and metaphorical sense, she is trying to "bring light into the world," and given how many she has sacrificed to forge the right "sword,", it seems plausible that that too is an unexpected result of her own deliberate behaviors.

That's interesting. I think she has to die though. Especially after killing Shireen. Where else is she going to go? And Jon will certainly lose it. Or maybe patchface goes postal. I'm a little worried about Patchface. You brought this up initially and it's been gnawing at me. His story is really strange and he will be very very unhappy.

[Dragonfish]

We don't know that he was in KL for 'several' weeks prior to the Trident, it seems more to me that he was only there for a few days before he headed off to the Trident, keeping in mind that he would've had the thought of a pregnant Lyanna stuck at the TOJ on his mind....

The timeline suggests Rhaegar was in King's Landing for up to several months. This is based on the fact that he returned soon after the Battle of the Bells, which itself had to have taken place before Ned's marriage to Cat, and thus a few months into the war.

[Jon Icefyre]

The timeline suggests Rhaegar was in King's Landing for up to several months. This is based on the fact that he returned soon after the Battle of the Bells, which itself had to have taken place before Ned's marriage to Cat, and thus a few months into the war.

Several months? That's your own assumption, what in the text tells us that Rhaegar went to KL literally right after the battle of the bells was over and then was there for several months until the battle of the trident? Just because the royalist army was being assembled for the Trident right after the battle of the bells doesn't mean Rhaegar was physically there in KL from the beginning, I think it's just as likely that Rhaegar came after the army was assembled, and therefore arrived in KL to lead the already assembled royalist army to the Trident.

[Snow_Shrike]

That's interesting. I think she has to die though. Especially after killing Shireen. Where else is she going to go? And Jon will certainly lose it. Or maybe patchface goes postal. I'm a little worried about Patchface. You brought this up initially and it's been gnawing at me. His story is really strange and he will be very very unhappy.

Patchface going postal seems a bit unlikely to me... his pronouncements are what is important.....I suspect they will be important later.

[Dragonfish]

Several months? That's your own assumption, what in the text tells us that Rhaegar went to KL literally right after the battle of the bells was over and then was there for several months until the battle of the trident? Just because the royalist army was being assembled for the Trident right after the battle of the bells doesn't mean Rhaegar was physically there in KL from the beginning, I think it's just as likely that Rhaegar came after the army was assembled, and therefore arrived in KL to lead the already assembled royalist army to the Trident.

I don't have Storm on hand so I can't find a direct quote, but I do recall that Rhaegar was definitely a part of the marshaling of the army. He didn't just show up after the army had already been assembled.

[Stannis Lives]

Patchface going postal seems a bit unlikely to me... his pronouncements are what is important.....I suspect they will be important later.

I agree but there is the bit about Mel saying she sees him surrounded by skulls and bleeding from the mouth.

[Alia of the knife]

That's interesting. I think she has to die though. Especially after killing Shireen. Where else is she going to go? And Jon will certainly lose it. Or maybe patchface goes postal. I'm a little worried about Patchface. You brought this up initially and it's been gnawing at me. His story is really strange and he will be very very unhappy.

I do think that Mel will die and probably at the hands of Jon, and it's interesting that you've taken the saying "kill the boy and let the man be born" because that seems to be essentially what happens at the hands of his assassins which plays into Martins making Jon's character much more grey.

Patchface:

Lol, I think it's just my general dislike of mimes, clowns, muppets and dolls that makes me think that he will NOT take anything happening to Shireen, well.

There have been some theories that Patchface is a lost "dragon" himself, perhaps a Blackfyre's Trojan Horse being clandestinely shipped into Westeros given what happened to Roberts father and mother.

And of course Mel doesn't like him, but since I'm not sure about Mel I don't know if her not liking someone actually might be an indication of good.

As a side note since we're talking about greyscale, they just shut down a campground in Southern California due to actual, honest-to-God plague, as in BLACK-Plague infested squirrels.