R+L=J v.55

[Jon Icefyre]

Not at all. There are a handful of reasons that Hightower was the logical choice without inventing a conspiracy involving Aegon. Which, btw, is kind of odd considering we already have an in-story conspiracy involving Aegon.

A much more plausible explanation is that Aerys entrusted this very important job of retrieving Rhaegar to his most loyal, capable servant. This makes all the more sense when you factor in Aerys's paranoia. Alternatively, it was a task assigned to the KG that Ser Gerold took upon himself. Either explanation is sufficient. Using poorly founded assumptions to tack on unsupported aspects to the theory dulls Occam's razor.

No, we do not "know" that Aegon is missing. In fact, the most popular interpretation of the YG storyline is that he's a Blackfyre, and not Aegon VI.

:agree: Thank you!

[Greymoon]

I wonder what could keep Hightower from taking a wetnurse with him.

I think of Ashara carrying babies in a physical sense, I mean, taking them from here to there. Arthur could have resorted to her to tuck Aegon away.

Political feuds aside, haw can you explain Hightower's goings and stayings?

Eta: I have thought before as Ashara having some Rhaegar's baby. They lived together and it's posible, but there's no need for it to be. I don't see the need for a part to be played by some Ashara's baby, That's not to say it can't happen, just because. I'm not using it anymore.

Oh, I mentioned that possibility once, as Ashara was pregnant some time in between Harrenhall and the end of the war...She could have been a wetnurse, and travelled to the TOJ after giving birth to her still born daughter. But we have no proof, and Aegon being descended from the Blackfyre line is much more interesting plot wise.

[finger]

Not at all. There are a handful of reasons that Hightower was the logical choice without inventing a conspiracy involving Aegon. Which, btw, is kind of odd considering we already have an in-story conspiracy involving Aegon.

A much more plausible explanation is that Aerys entrusted this very important job of retrieving Rhaegar to his most loyal, capable servant. This makes all the more sense when you factor in Aerys's paranoia. Alternatively, it was a task assigned to the KG that Ser Gerold took upon himself. Either explanation is sufficient. Using poorly founded assumptions to tack on unsupported aspects to the theory dulls Occam's razor.

No, we do not "know" that Aegon is missing. In fact, the most popular interpretation of the YG storyline is that he's a Blackfyre, and not Aegon VI.

Rhaegar didn't call anyone to the ToJ; it was the other way around. Fan fiction much?

I'll put it in a different way: Hightower going himself to tell Rhaeger to come back to KL, and then staying at the ToJ is a ludicrous attitude if there's nothing else. For it to make sense, you have to imagine some hidden reason.

The best I've found is Hightower was escorting Aegon and he stayed with him, but I'm willing to read a better one.

The rest is an analysis of why could Hightower be doing so, and my conclusion is that it's not hard to explain it in a context of strained relation between Rhaegar and Aerys. I'm not pretending I've discovered every detail in the story, but just the main lines, that is, Aegon was involved, and he was eventually taken far away, before Ned could arrive.

That established, Ashara's involvement is logical, given her relation with Arthur Dayne, Rhaegar, Aegon proper,...

I think GRRM is keeping this episode obscure willingly, and we only can guess what happened. We're given some stuff to build our guessings.

[finger]

I'll just add something.

The task of summonning Rhaegar would have normally been assigned to a raven.

Provided that we have hints to assume that there was not rookery at ToJ, and Aerys didn't trust Dornish lords, Gold Cloak #271 could be a good choice.

I can't find any of the many reasons to charge the KG with the task, sorry.

(Well, no one but escorting a royal)

[Stannis Lives]

The Targaryens converted to the Faith upon Aegon the Conqueror's crowning.

In reference to the earlier convo about rhaegar setting Elia aside, here is an exchange with tywin and Tyrion.

“Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?”

“By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is.”

Obviously there have been exceptions such as with Tyrion and Tysha. Im sure Rhaegar could have had the marriage annulled fairly easily. As others have mentioned, Robert was going to set aside Cersei for Margaery so it can't very difficult for a royal or noble. Is Aerys High Septon ever discussed? I've never seen a mention.

[Ygrain]

I'll just add something.

The task of summonning Rhaegar would have normally been assigned to a raven.

Provided that we have hints to assume that there was not rookery at ToJ, and Aerys didn't trust Dornish lords, Gold Cloak #271 could be a good choice.

I can't find any of the many reasons to charge the KG with the task, sorry.

(Well, no one but escorting a royal)

That's nonsense. The more important message you send, the more reliable courier you need; at a time of war when the roads are unsafe, you also need the courier to be more capable than an average swordsman. Add to it Aerys' paranoia, and the courier must be someone whom Aerys still trusts completely, which is only his KG, and Hightower would probably be the most trusted of them all. Martell was gathering the forces in Dorne, Selmy was also in the field, IRRC, which leaves Jaime, Darry and Hightower at his disposal. Jaime needs to be kept at KL because Aerys mistrusts Tywin, so it's either Hightower or Darry.

[Greymoon]

I'll just add something.

The task of summonning Rhaegar would have normally been assigned to a raven.

Provided that we have hints to assume that there was not rookery at ToJ, and Aerys didn't trust Dornish lords, Gold Cloak #271 could be a good choice.

I can't find any of the many reasons to charge the KG with the task, sorry.

(Well, no one but escorting a royal)

I don't think that ravens are all that reliable. They've got nothing on the modern postal service, at least. It seems to me, that when there was time to organize it and the message was really important, then someone always got send as an envoy. Mormont sent an envoy to Kingslanding, after he got attacked. Lysa Arryn, sent a secret message to Winterfell, through someone traveling in Robert's party... It's only when a keep is suddenly besieged that the ravens are sent out in urgency to deliver urgent and important messages...otherwise, it's done by envoy. Same with Stannis when he sends Davos to Lord Manderly, although he's already dispatched ravens all around. For me that means: if you want to make sure the message arrives at destination, you've got to send someone or go yourself.

Also, the Gold cloaks are responsible for keeping the peace in the city. They aren’t trusted counselors of the King, and we know that Aerys was paranoid. Who could he have trusted?

I imagine the whole deal went along that line: Aerys is sitting on his throne, and being lectured about the going ons in the country... then the king asks "Where is my son?" Hightower answers "He's away, your Grace." and his Grace says "Fetch him!"...

Uhm, so basically I agree with the post above from Ygrain.

[King of Winters]

This might have been mentioned before, but during a reread of AGOT, Ned thinks to himself (about Lyanna), whilst in the crypts with Robert, "Ned had loved her with all his heart." And the when Cat is thinking about who Jon's mother is, when Ned, her and Luwin are talking about what happens to Jon when Ned goes south; "whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

[J. Stargaryen]

With all due respect, I was not "bringing up" an argument, but responding to a conversation with another poster which pivoted off other conversations regarding polygamy, and I hold the opinion that Rhaegar intended to have one wife, and that was Lyanna. The answer as to why Lyanna would have accepted such an arrangement instead of saying, "me or her," are all based upon assumptions which I named.

In either case, you introduced the point. So, unless I missed something, you did bring it up.

I really don't consider Cersei's statement "a catch" since it's been around from book one, but the polygamy idea as the poster I was responding to was asking about, has been pushed more so by the fans- hence my fan theory statement. Martin set the polygamy precedent, but also the divorce precedent so both should be equally considered.

Okay. From now on I'll make sure I'm super duper sure that you're deserving of a compliment before I give you one.

I would appreciate it if you could explain to me the difference between "fan theory" and "theory." It seems to me that all theories are fan theories. In my experience, the only time someone uses "fan theory" is in a derogatory manner.

Personally, I don't understand why so many Rhaegar fans are emotionally invested in the polygamy theory, at least long term. One male heir is not securing the succession, which again may have been behind what Connington was referring to in Elias "unworthiness," because I can't imagine she'd be "unworthy" in any other way, but nonetheless, it would be a major concern if Elia couldn't continue to provide heirs in the event something happened to Aegon.

Huh? Wasn't the idea of divorce just brought up last night? The "emotional investment" of "Rhaegar fans" in the polygamy theory, if it exists, is directly tied to Jon's legitimacy. Beyond that -- if I can speak for all Rhaegar fans* here -- it's kind of a moot point. Honestly, I'm not even aware that such a position exists. I guess the only real objection is that there is precedent for polygamy, while I'm unaware of any precedent for divorcing a princess or queen.

*I'm not sure if I'm even a proper Rhaegar fan, so much as I'm just interested in finding out more about his character, and the events surrounding him.

When you say these arguments on what Lyannas views might have been on Rhaegar and Robert have been "refuted," are you talking about Martin, or other fans? I will need more from Martin on Lyanna, and not other fans though they are certainly entitled to their opinions, but given that Martin himself has said that Robert was not such a bad guy, and the evidence that Ned still loved him, I'd be wary on where Martin goes with that.

Lyanna was indeed correct on Robert, but it doesn't mean she wasn't disappointed.

I'm talking about the textual evidence. The same thing you attempted to use to make the claim I'm disputing in the first place. What's good for the goose...

You know, taking another look at the original comment, it seems to me like you're making the assumption that Rhaegar would continue his sexual relations with Elia. Yes/No? If so, I feel it is necessary to point out that is not an automatic condition of polygamous marriage. Due to Elia's delicate condition, I think a lot of us assume that Rhaegar would cease any relations that could possibly lead to her getting pregnant.

Lyanna's words to Ned about Robert ("Love is sweet," etc.) combined with her later (likely) running off with Rhaegar tell us that she didn't view the situations as being the same. That, or she's a hypocrite.

<snip>

[finger]

That's nonsense. The more important message you send, the more reliable courier you need; at a time of war when the roads are unsafe, you also need the courier to be more capable than an average swordsman. Add to it Aerys' paranoia, and the courier must be someone whom Aerys still trusts completely, which is only his KG, and Hightower would probably be the most trusted of them all. Martell was gathering the forces in Dorne, Selmy was also in the field, IRRC, which leaves Jaime, Darry and Hightower at his disposal. Jaime needs to be kept at KL because Aerys mistrusts Tywin, so it's either Hightower or Darry.

Well, the raven was a literary licence, I concede.

Actually, I'd sent a couple (maybe 3, being paranoid) GC using different paths, to make sure that the message was delivered.

This is no task for the KG, less so when they were in such a dire situation.

Or, if the causeways were so unsafe, I'd send a strong retinue to escort Rhaegar back, never to stay in ToJ.

There's someting more we've not told about.

[finger]

I don't think that ravens are all that reliable. They've got nothing on the modern postal service, at least. It seems to me, that when there was time to organize it and the message was really important, then someone always got send as an envoy. Mormont sent an envoy to Kingslanding, after he got attacked. Lysa Arryn, sent a secret message to Winterfell, through someone traveling in Robert's party... It's only when a keep is suddenly besieged that the ravens are sent out in urgency to deliver urgent and important messages...otherwise, it's done by envoy. Same with Stannis when he sends Davos to Lord Manderly, although he's already dispatched ravens all around. For me that means: if you want to make sure the message arrives at destination, you've got to send someone or go yourself.

Also, the Gold cloaks are responsible for keeping the peace in the city. They aren’t trusted counselors of the King, and we know that Aerys was paranoid. Who could he have trusted?

I imagine the whole deal went along that line: Aerys is sitting on his throne, and being lectured about the going ons in the country... then the king asks "Where is my son?" Hightower answers "He's away, your Grace." and his Grace says "Fetch him!"...

Uhm, so basically I agree with the post above from Ygrain.

You could be right,.. if only Hightower had fetched Rhaegar, that he hadn't.

[Ygrain]

You could be right,.. if only Hightower had fetched Rhaegar, that he hadn't.

Er... but he did fulfill the top priority task, to get Rhaegar return to KL.

Well, the raven was a literary licence, I concede.

Actually, I'd sent a couple (maybe 3, being paranoid) GC using different paths, to make sure that the message was delivered.

This is no task for the KG, less so when they were in such a dire situation.

Or, if the causeways were so unsafe, I'd send a strong retinue to escort Rhaegar back, never to stay in ToJ.

There's someting more we've not told about.

Did you somehow miss the point about the reliability of the messenger? How are some random Goldcloaks reliable? What if they defect, what if they reveal what Aerys is up to, what if they screw and lead the rebels to Rhaegar's hideout?

Why should Aerys entrust them with something so vital?

[finger]

C'mon, guys, we're talkin' bout delivering a bloody message.

All my respect to postmen, but anyone not being utterly stupid can do it. Some GC born in the region, better than most.

[J. Stargaryen]

In reference to the earlier convo about rhaegar setting Elia aside, here is an exchange with tywin and Tyrion.

Obviously there have been exceptions such as with Tyrion and Tysha. Im sure Rhaegar could have had the marriage annulled fairly easily. As others have mentioned, Robert was going to set aside Cersei for Margaery so it can't very difficult for a royal or noble. Is Aerys High Septon ever discussed? I've never seen a mention.

The bolded part isn't correct. It was Renly and the Tyrells' idea to have Cersei set aside in favor of Margaery. As far as I know, Robert had no idea about this.

Of course the larger point is that you can do whatever it is you want, if you have the power to do so. Renly and Highgarden thought they had the power to usurp the throne. And, actually, they did. Until Renly got shadow baby ex machina'd out of the picture.

[finger]

Er... but he did fulfill the top priority task, to get Rhaegar return to KL.

Did you somehow miss the point about the reliability of the messenger? How are some random Goldcloaks reliable? What if they defect, what if they reveal what Aerys is up to, what if they screw and lead the rebels to Rhaegar's hideout?

Why should Aerys entrust them with something so vital?

It's not that I agree but, even being so, what should he stay? Did he like the landscape? Was the weather good to his health?

I do think you're clever, I wonder why you can't see it.

I know, Rhaegar commaded. Then, why should he? Just to bugger Aerys? or Hightower? or was he pissed off for leaving the ToJ, and he had to stance a spoilt boy puff?

Then, if it was so vital, where was the strong retinue?

The story doesn't stand by its own, it's beggin some crutch.

Eta: He didn't fetch Rhaegar, he just told Rhaegar to go to KL. This one could have been done by a raven as well, even though I rather had a GC doing it,... and escorting Rhaegar back. I told so before.

[J. Stargaryen]

I'll put it in a different way: Hightower going himself to tell Rhaeger to come back to KL, and then staying at the ToJ is a ludicrous attitude if there's nothing else. For it to make sense, you have to imagine some hidden reason.

The best I've found is Hightower was escorting Aegon and he stayed with him, but I'm willing to read a better one.

There is; Jon Snow.

Unless I've missed something, you've failed to explain how Hightower knew to escort Aegon to the ToJ. Psychic link with Rhaegar?

The rest is an analysis of why could Hightower be doing so, and my conclusion is that it's not hard to explain it in a context of strained relation between Rhaegar and Aerys. I'm not pretending I've discovered every detail in the story, but just the main lines, that is, Aegon was involved, and he was eventually taken far away, before Ned could arrive.

This very idea already exists via the Varys baby switch story. What is the author's motivation for keeping this plot hidden the majority of the series, only to reveal a falsified version of it in book five? That makes no sense.

That established, Ashara's involvement is logical, given her relation with Arthur Dayne, Rhaegar, Aegon proper,...

I think GRRM is keeping this episode obscure willingly, and we only can guess what happened. We're given some stuff to build our guessings.

:bang:

No, we've been told the official "Aegon is real" story already. The "we can only guess what happened" part is whether he's actually Rhaegar's son, or some imposter.

[Ygrain]

It's not that I agree but, even being so, what should he stay? Did he like the landscape? Was the weather good to his health?

I do think you're clever, I wonder why you can't see it.

I know, Rhaegar commaded. Then, why should he? Just to bugger Aerys? or Hightower? or was he pissed off for leaving the ToJ, and he had to stance a spoilt boy puff?

Then, if it was so vital, where was the strong retinue?

The story doesn't stand by its own, it's beggin some crutch.

Because three best swords to protect an otherwise unprotected love of Rhaegar's life were better than two? Because he didn't want Hightower anywhere close in KL, should the planned removal of Aerys from power not work as Rhaegar wanted? Personally, I think the first one was the reason, and I fail to see your problem with it.

If you send a retinue, you compromise the reliability, as the men from the retinue are nowhere next to Hightower's level of loyal, and a single man (hopefully, not wearing his white armour) can escape detection more easily than a bunch of them.

[J. Stargaryen]

Er... but he did fulfill the top priority task, to get Rhaegar return to KL.

Did you somehow miss the point about the reliability of the messenger? How are some random Goldcloaks reliable? What if they defect, what if they reveal what Aerys is up to, what if they screw and lead the rebels to Rhaegar's hideout?

Why should Aerys entrust them with something so vital?

Right. Aerys knows he can trust his KG: they've watched him conduct the farce of a trial-by-combact with Rickard Stark; they've watched him burn people; they've stood guard while he brutalized his wife. He can be sure that Hightower will deliver this message.

This idea that Aerys, paranoid as can be, could or would trust just anybody with this task is ludicrous.

Because three best swords to protect an otherwise unprotected love of Rhaegar's life were better than two? Because he didn't want Hightower anywhere close in KL, should the planned removal of Aerys from power not work as Rhaegar wanted? Personally, I think the first one was the reason, and I fail to see your problem with it.

If you send a retinue, you compromise the reliability, as the men from the retinue are nowhere next to Hightower's level of loyal, and a single man (hopefully, not wearing his white armour) can escape detection more easily than a bunch of them.

I think these are both good reasons. In addition, my take was that he didn't want Hightower to compromise the exact location and goings on of the ToJ.

[Stannis Lives]

The bolded part isn't correct. It was Renly and the Tyrells' idea to have Cersei set aside in favor of Margaery. As far as I know, Robert had no idea about this.

Of course the larger point is that you can do whatever it is you have the power to do. Renly and Highgarden thought they had the power to usurp the throne. And, actually, they did until Renly got shadow baby ex machina'd out of the picture.

My mistake. I meant Robert would have set her aside if Renlys plan worked. It seemed like everyone expected t to happen including cersei. The larger point is that simply it would not have been difficult for rhaegar to get out of his marriage if that is what he wanted.

[finger]

There is; Jon Snow.

Unless I've missed something, you've failed to explain how Hightower knew to escort Aegon to the ToJ. Psychic link with Rhaegar?

This very idea already exists via the Varys baby switch story. What is the author's motivation for keeping this plot hidden the majority of the series, only to reveal a falsified version of it in book five? That makes no sense.

:bang:

No, we've been told the official "Aegon is real" story already. The "we can only guess what happened" part is whether he's actually Rhaegar's son, or some imposter.

a) Jon Snow is perfectly well guarded by two KG. That is going around the question. I'll ask it again: why did Hightower go to TOJ?

B) It was war. I guess leading anyone to anywhere was a minor issue. Otherwise, they'd be helpless when facing the enemy. For instance: "someone will be waiting for you in Vulture's Roost."

c) Varys' story is somewhat real, indeed. He just lacks the real Aegon, but the rest is true.

d) Most people think YG is a fake, at least in this forum.

e) It's not up to me me to judge GRRM, but he has presented JC in the fifth book, why shouldn't Aegon show up in te sixth? I think he's fond of big surprises.

And, if it doesn't bother you much, why did Hightower delive the message to Rhaegar and stay in the ToJ? You're all too angry with my story, but no one answers my questions.