R+L=J v.55

[Greymoon]

Why would Aerys be involved in the Lyanna plot? Sorry if this has already been cleared but I always believed the contrary. Might it not be that Hightower chose to go on his own and by his own discretion and not the King's? He was the lord commander of the KG-

Aerys might not know where Rhaegar was, but Hightower would have known where his own sworn brothers were. He was responsible for them, after all, and he wouldn’t have made a very good lord commander if he’d lost two of his KG.

Does it not make sense, this way? Suppose Aerys was clueless, but Hightower wasn't. Hightower might have been included in Rhaegar's secrets from the beginning, so knowing how delicate the situation was, Hightower would (by his own discretion, not the King's) have decided to leave on his own. This way, he would betray neither the secret nor Rhaegar’s location, to any party not previously involved.

Once there, he would have told to Rhaegar that the Prince was needed in Kingslanding. Rhaegar would then have left the TOJ.

Finger:

It’s already been pointed out, three men, is not actually too little to protect and care for one pregnant woman and possibly a maester and a wet nurse. If these men were also appointed tasks like fetching drinkable water etc. . then three, would really be the minimum. With Rhaegar gone, the prince could have told Hightower to stay.

Another point:

If it's so illogical for Hightower to travel without a big retinue, then it's even more illogical for Rhaegar to return to Kings Landing on his own, unless, both he and Hightower were going incognito for the sake of keeping the TOJ secret... no?

[J. Stargaryen]

a) Jon Snow is perfectly well guarded by two KG. That is going around the question. I'll ask it again: why did Hightower go to TOJ?

B) It was war. I guess leading anyone to anywhere was a minor issue. Otherwise, they'd be helpless when facing the enemy. For instance: "someone will be waiting for you in Vulture's Roost."

c) Varys' story is somewhat real, indeed. He just lacks the real Aegon, but the rest is true.

d) Most people think YG is a fake, at least in this forum.

e) It's not up to me me to judge GRRM, but he has presented JC in the fifth book, why shouldn't Aegon show up in te sixth? I think he's fond of big surprises.

And, if it doesn't bother you much, why did Hightower delive the message to Rhaegar and stay in the ToJ? You're all too angry with my story, but no one answers my questions.

Both Ygrain and I have answered this for you. Yet you have failed to answer how it is that Hightower "knew" to bring Aegon to the ToJ based on Rhaegar's wishes. Btw, it's awfully convenient that Ser Gerold was able to do this under the "excuse" of being ordered by the king to summon Rhaegar back to KL. :)

Oh, and I, too, think GRRM is fond of big surprises. It's just that I don't think he's fond of poorly foreshadowed contrivances.

[Jon Icefyre]

Oh, and I, too, think GRRM is fond of big surprises. It's just that I don't think he's fond of poorly foreshadowed contrivances.

Indeed

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This might have been mentioned before, but during a reread of AGOT, Ned thinks to himself (about Lyanna), whilst in the crypts with Robert, "Ned had loved her with all his heart." And the when Cat is thinking about who Jon's mother is, when Ned, her and Luwin are talking about what happens to Jon when Ned goes south; "whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

It has indeed, but I think every time someone new catches it it deserves a little more fanfare! It's one of those perfect little winks that GRRM is so fond of :)

[Alia of the knife]

In either case, you introduced the point. So, unless I missed something, you did bring it up.

Okay. From now on I'll make sure I'm super duper sure that you're deserving of a compliment before I give you one.

I would appreciate it if you could explain to me the difference between "fan theory" and "theory." It seems to me that all theories are fan theories. In my experience, the only time someone uses "fan theory" is in a derogatory manner.

Huh? Wasn't the idea of divorce just brought up last night? The "emotional investment" of "Rhaegar fans" in the polygamy theory, if it exists, is directly tied to Jon's legitimacy. Beyond that -- if I can speak for all Rhaegar fans* here -- it's kind of a moot point. Honestly, I'm not even aware that such a position exists. I guess the only real objection is that there is precedent for polygamy, while I'm unaware of any precedent for divorcing a princess or queen.

*I'm not sure if I'm even a proper Rhaegar fan, so much as I'm just interested in finding out more about his character, and the events surrounding him.

I'm talking about the textual evidence. The same thing you attempted to use to make the claim I'm disputing in the first place. What's good for the goose...

You know, taking another look at the original comment, it seems to me like you're making the assumption that Rhaegar would continue his sexual relations with Elia. Yes/No? If so, I feel it is necessary to point out that is not an automatic condition of polygamous marriage. Due to Elia's delicate condition, I think a lot of us assume that Rhaegar would cease any relations that could possibly lead to her getting pregnant.

Lyanna's words to Ned about Robert ("Love is sweet," etc.) combined with her later (likely) running off with Rhaegar tell us that she didn't view the situations as being the same. That, or she's a hypocrite.

As I said to you, I was responding to another poster who asked me a specific question on polygamy in which I gave that person my opinion.

And I have never made it a secret that I choose to wait upon Martins word regarding Lyannas choices and the journey of her fate, as well as the fact that I hold a different opinion of the interpretation of Lyannas character. Certainly Martin is free to take her character in whatever direction he wishes since she is his creation and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

At this point, you and I are speaking at cross-purposes and will have to agree to disagree as I am certainly as entitled to my opinions and interpretations as you are to yours.

(And it was actually Ser Leftwich who caught the Cersei passage some time back, so the credit goes to him).

Good Day.

[Jon Icefyre]

As I said to you, I was responding to another poster who asked me a specific question on polygamy in which I gave that person my opinion.

And I have never made it a secret that I choose to wait upon Martins word regarding Lyannas choices and the journey of her fate, as well as the fact that I hold a different opinion of the interpretation of Lyannas character. Certainly Martin is free to take her character in whatever direction he wishes since she is his creation and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

At this point, you and I are speaking at cross-purposes and will have to agree to disagree as I am certainly as entitled to my opinions and interpretations as you are to yours.

(And it was actually Ser Leftwich who caught the Cersei passage some time back, so the credit goes to him).

Good Day.

@J. Stargaryen all I'm gonna say on the matter is that I certainly understand and agree with a lot of your points but as far as my knowledge goes, I remember having a very long discussion discussion with Alia about this in one of the earlier threads and she's always been a pretty firm believer of the Rhaegar setting Elia aside theory, so it it isn't something that has just suddenly out of the blue been brought up recently, it's been around for a while on the earlier threads. In fact I'm pretty sure me, her, and Ygrain were researching precedence on the matter at one point such as, Naerys Targaryen asking Aegon the unlikely to dissolve their marriage after she gave him an heir. Now don't me wrong, I'm much more inclined to believe the poly marriage theory, but at the same time I think the idea that Rhaegar was planning on unseating Aerys and then dissolving his marriage with Elia once he became king in favor of his marriage with Lyanna is certainly possible as well. The only slight issue I have with the theory is, would a dissolved marriage still keep Elia's children in the line of succession? But Naerys didn't seem too worried about that so I'll assume for now that it would. Either way I still think he married Lyanna before he died and that in his eyes the marriage was legitimate.

[J. Stargaryen]

As I said to you, I was responding to another poster who asked me a specific question on polygamy in which I gave that person my opinion.

And I have never made it a secret that I choose to wait upon Martins word regarding Lyannas choices and the journey of her fate, as well as the fact that I hold a different opinion of the interpretation of Lyannas character. Certainly Martin is free to take her character in whatever direction he wishes since she is his creation and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

At this point, you and I are speaking at cross-purposes and will have to agree to disagree as I am certainly as entitled to my opinions and interpretations as you are to yours.

(And it was actually Ser Leftwich who caught the Cersei passage some time back, so the credit goes to him).

Good Day.

So that's a "No" to explaining the difference between "theory" and "fan theory"?

@J. Stargaryen all I'm gonna say on the matter is that I certainly understand your points but as far as my knowledge goes, I remember having a very long discussion discussion with Alia about this in one of the earlier threads and she's always been a pretty firm believer of the Rhaegar setting Elia aside theory, so it it isn't something that has just suddenly out of the blue been brought up recently, it's been around for a while on the earlier threads, in fact I'm pretty sure me, her, and Ygrain were researching precedence on the matter at one point such as, Naerys Targaryen asking Aegon the unlikely to dissolve their marriage after she gave him an heir. Now don't me wrong, I much more inclined to believe the poly marriage theory, but at the same time I think the idea that Rhaegar was planning on unseating Aerys and then dissolving his marriage with Elia once he became king in favor of his marriage with Lyanna is certainly possible as well. Either way I still think he married Lyanna before he died and that in his eyes the marriage was legitimate.

Right. I don't have an objection to that idea in principle. Just some of the arguments that were raised, and language that was used.

[Jon Icefyre]

So that's a "No" to explaining the difference between "theory" and "fan theory"?

Right. I don't have an objection to that idea in principle. Just some of the arguments that were raised, and language that was used.

Ya I totally get where you're coming from and I'm not disagreeing with you whatsoever, it's just that I've had a very similar conversation with Alia in the past about this so I know where she's coming from as well lol. I think or at least IMHO what she means by fan theory vs theory is that the Rhaegar poly marriage theory is more popular and is argued far more by R+L=LJ supporters than the Rhaegar dissolving his marriage with Elia theory. Therefore the Rhaegar poly marriage would be considered more of a, "fan theory", while the Rhaegar dissolving his marriage with Elia would be considered more of a "individual theory". Now technically since we're all fans any theory we come up with is a "fan theory" but I think Alia was just using that term to distinguish the difference in popularity between the two theories. Which is completely understandable IMO.

[Alia of the knife]

@J. Stargaryen all I'm gonna say on the matter is that I certainly understand and agree with a lot of your points but as far as my knowledge goes, I remember having a very long discussion discussion with Alia about this in one of the earlier threads and she's always been a pretty firm believer of the Rhaegar setting Elia aside theory, so it it isn't something that has just suddenly out of the blue been brought up recently, it's been around for a while on the earlier threads. In fact I'm pretty sure me, her, and Ygrain were researching precedence on the matter at one point such as, Naerys Targaryen asking Aegon the unlikely to dissolve their marriage after she gave him an heir. Now don't me wrong, I'm much more inclined to believe the poly marriage theory, but at the same time I think the idea that Rhaegar was planning on unseating Aerys and then dissolving his marriage with Elia once he became king in favor of his marriage with Lyanna is certainly possible as well. The only slight issue I have with the theory is, would a dissolved marriage still keep Elia's children in the line of succession? But Naerys didn't seem too worried about that so I'll assume for now that it would. Either way I still think he married Lyanna before he died and that in his eyes the marriage was legitimate.

Thanks Jon:

About a year ago, I was on another thread, specifically about Rhaegar, and I committed the cardinal sin of agreeing with another poster about her very fair analysis of Rhaegar. Because he was not portrayed in her analysis as "picture-perfect," another poster attacked both she and myself so viciously that it bordered on the irrational, and it really made me rethink being on these forums as it's just a hobby.

And then later on one of the very early R+L threads, I was berated for not accepting the polygamy theme, and I mean in terms of a hypothetical discussion of if Rhaegar returned and what his intentions might be.

From those experiences of the "Rhaegar fans," (and perhaps I should have clarified my experiences), my observation was that many of them opted for the polygamy theme not because it solved the problem of Jons legitimacy, but because they seemed to feel that somehow it made the experiences, or fates of Elia and Lyanna better and absolved Rhaegar of any responsibility, hence my opinion on the seemingly emotional investment in the polygamy theory.

My opinion is that Rhaegar is not a bad person to begin with, but he is imperfect like most of the characters, and felt that divorce was just as probable as polygamy. The option of divorce didn't make Rhaegar a bad person.

Lyanna isn't blameless either. However, I do feel as a Lyanna fan that she should be given the same benefit of the doubt as Rhaegar, because however she ended up with Rhaegar, I believe she loved him, married him, and Jon was legitimate.

In the end, I have no idea of how Martin reconciles this, so I prefer to wait upon Martin, because it is complicated.

[Old-Growth]

Old Growth.

While I am interested in finding out what Martin thinks that Lyanna thought of Robert, my point was that since Martin himself doesn't seem to share some of the same opinions on Robert as some of his fan base, that I would proceed with caution since that may not be the end of story on that narrative. We have at least two more books to go.

I fact, when it comes to Martin, I would not be so sure of any guesswork since his recent App. apparently sent some into near panic and howls of outrage.

And while the dragons are effective on the ground, they may not be quite so effective in harsh weather, especially cold weather. The last time I checked, and since there are no real dragons to compare, reptiles do not fare so well in extreme cold and are sensitive to respiratory infections brought on by the cold which I think would interfere with their fire-breathing abilities.

I don't think the dragons are meant to be omnipotent and will likely kill as many innocents as the Others.

As an element, fire is powerful, but so too is cold and can burn as badly as the rays of the sun. If as the Heretics say, the Others are ice made flesh and bring winter with them, then the dragons may not be able to stop them, hence the balance of the two elements- Jon.

On the question of Dragons and cold, we are told that dragons are "fire made flesh". What if they are warm blooded, not cold blooded? Paleontologists have of late been considering the possibility that dinosaurs were warm blooded, and are a separate evolutionary lineage from reptiles: perhaps it is the same with dragons. What we have seen so far is that Dany's three have voracious appetites, which would be more in keeping with a need to maintain body temperature. The aversion to rain might have some other explanation not having to do with whether they are cold blooded or warm blooded.

On the question of Robert and Lyanna and Rhaegar, I too would like to have more from Martin rather than having to engage in speculation based on hints in the text.

Still "Robert will not keep to one bed" and "Love is sweet but it cannot change a man's nature" seem to me the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the way Lyanna felt about Robert and about Robert vis-a-vis Rhaegar, especially once she realized that Rhaegar was attracted to her. After all, knowing that Robert was her brother's friend what more could she say to Eddard, especially on the night her betrothal to Robert was announced.

[Stannis Lives]

Thanks Jon:

About a year ago, I was on another thread, specifically about Rhaegar, and I committed the cardinal sin of agreeing with another poster about her very fair analysis of Rhaegar. Because he was not portrayed in her analysis as "picture-perfect," another poster attacked both she and myself so viciously that it bordered on the irrational, and it really made me rethink being on these forums as it's just a hobby.

And then later on one of the very early R+L threads, I was berated for not accepting the polygamy theme, and I mean in terms of a hypothetical discussion of if Rhaegar returned and what his intentions might be.

From those experiences of the "Rhaegar fans," (and perhaps I should have clarified my experiences), my observation was that many of them opted for the polygamy theme not because it solved the problem of Jons legitimacy, but because they seemed to feel that somehow it made the experiences, or fates of Elia and Lyanna better and absolved Rhaegar of any responsibility, hence my opinion on the seemingly emotional investment in the polygamy theory.

My opinion is that Rhaegar is not a bad person to begin with, but he is imperfect like most of the characters, and felt that divorce was just as probable as polygamy. The option of divorce didn't make Rhaegar a bad person.

Lyanna isn't blameless either. However, I do feel as a Lyanna fan that she should be given the same benefit of the doubt as Rhaegar, because however she ended up with Rhaegar, I believe she loved him, married him, and Jon was legitimate.

In the end, I have no idea of how Martin reconciles this, so I prefer to wait upon Martin, because it is complicated.

It's funny because as a firm believer in R+L, I never thought to get into this level of detail and never thought about the polygamy vs set aside argument. It's interesting that so many sub theories have developed and been argued about for years. In my brief time on these forums, I have enjoyed comments from both J Starg and Alia and find both of your commentary enlightening. I'm surprised to see such a divergent opinion on this issue.

For what its worth, as someone who has been reading along, while simultaneously doing a series reread, I had come to the conclusion that Elia was set aside. As I posted earlier, tywin and Tyrion have an interesting discussion on the topic and cersei was fearful that she was going to be set aside, while Renly was plotting to actually set her aside. We also know Tysha was set aside and that Sansa seemingly will put Tyrion aside.

My point is that it seems to happen a lot in westeros. As there are no apparent civil marriages, all marriages seem to just be bound by whatever gods you happen to believe in and therefore these marriages can easily be annulled for political gain or simply out of desire by some sort of theological authority. Regardless, I do think that we try to put too much democracy into fiction sometimes. It is a monarchy with a very strict social hierarchy based on bloodline. Bottom line is that the crowned prince can do whatever he wants. He can certainly go to some religious authority and get his annulment. Who is going to tell him no? I would imagine its the same for lords and powerful houses with big armies or lots of gold. That's why earlier I was asking about the high septon of that time and what the relationship was with rhaegar and arys. I think its extremely important.

I don't think we can possibly know at this point whether its polygamy or a set aside or simply Jon is a bastard and lyanna was dishonored. Personally I'm partial to the set aside theory as it just seems so much easier for someone in rhaegars position to sell to the rest of westeros. Clearly he thought he would win the war and Jon would live in KL with him and lyanna. He had to keep up perceptions and I don't see a Brady bunch type situation playing out.

[J. Stargaryen]

It's funny because as a firm believer in R+L, I never thought to get into this level of detail and never thought about the polygamy vs set aside argument. It's interesting that so many sub theories have developed and been argued about for years. In my brief time on these forums, I have enjoyed comments from both J Starg and Alia and find both of your commentary enlightening. I'm surprised to see such a divergent opinion on this issue.

<snip>

It's not that I disagree with her wrt to polygamy vs. divorce, it's that I think that some of her arguments against polygamy are problematic, and others are just wrong.

For the record, I do lean towards polygamy, because there is precedent for it, and it is the simplest solution.

The more I think about it, the less likely I think divorce would have been a good option from Elia and Dorne's point of view. Admittedly, I haven't considered every angle here, but one I have considered goes like this:

1. Rhaegar divorces Elia, but names Aegon his heir, and Rhaenys keeps her usual place in the Targaryen line of succession.
   
2. Aerys dies, or is displaced; Rhaegar becomes king with Lyanna as his queen.
   
3. Rhaegar dies before Aegon comes of age.
   
4. Lyanna is now the Queen Regent.
   
5. Against Rhaegar's wishes, Lyanna removes Aegon and Rhaenys from the succession.
   
6. As Queen Regent her word is law. Just like when Cersei ripped up Ned's piece of paper (Robert's will), Lyanna can dismiss Rhaegar's wishes.
   

Now, imagine the first three points happen as above, but Elia and Lyanna are both queens. Aegon's position as heir is much more secure.

Of course there are all kinds of variables, and it's not a definitive argument. Still, the best way for Elia to ensure her children's birthrights are protected is to maintain the political marriage with Rhaegar.

[Stannis Lives]

It's not that I disagree with her wrt to polygamy vs. divorce, it's that I think that some of her arguments against polygamy are problematic, and others are just wrong.

For the record, I do lean towards polygamy, because there is precedent for it, and it is the simplest solution.

The more I think about it, the less likely I think divorce would have been a good option from Elia and Dorne's point of view. Admittedly, I haven't considered every angle here, but one I have considered goes like this:

1. Rhaegar divorces Elia, but names Aegon his heir, and Rhaenys keeps her usual place in the Targaryen line of succession.
   
2. Aerys dies, or is displaced; Rhaegar becomes king with Lyanna as his queen.
   
3. Rhaegar dies before Aegon comes of age.
   
4. Lyanna is now the Queen Regent.
   
5. Against Rhaegar's wishes, Lyanna removes Aegon and Rhaenys from the succession.
   
6. As Queen Regent her word is law. Just like when Cersei ripped up Ned's piece of paper (Robert's will), Lyanna can dismiss Rhaegar's wishes.
   

Now, imagine the first three points happen as above, but Elia and Lyanna are both queens. Aegon's position as heir is much more secure.

Of course there are all kinds of variables, and it's not a definitive argument. Still, the best way for Elia to ensure her children's birthrights are protected is to maintain the political marriage with Rhaegar.

These are all good points and well thought out. If rhaegar divorced Elia, Dorne would probably go to war over her honor. I guess it really didn't matter since the rest of the kingdom was fighting a war for lyannas honor. The interesting question is would Dorne side with the Starks and baratheons if they thought Elia was disrespected, even with lyanna stark being the one to disrespect her? Regardless of polygamy or divorce, I think its a difficult spot for Dorne. Elias son is still the heir regardless and half dornish but rhaegar spit on Elia any way you slice it. Seems kind of bizarre all things considered that rhaegar would run away with lyanna to Dorne, no?

[J. Stargaryen]

These are all good points and well thought out. If rhaegar divorced Elia, Dorne would probably go to war over her honor. I guess it really didn't matter since the rest of the kingdom was fighting a war for lyannas honor. The interesting question is would Dorne side with the Starks and baratheons if they thought Elia was disrespected, even with lyanna stark being the one to disrespect her? Regardless of polygamy or divorce, I think its a difficult spot for Dorne. Elias son is still the heir regardless and half dornish but rhaegar spit on Elia any way you slice it. Seems kind of bizarre all things considered that rhaegar would run away with lyanna to Dorne, no?

Not only bizarre, but problematic. It certainly wasn't the ideal solution.

I'm not sure if Dorne would have declared war over Rhaegar divorcing Elia, but I could definitely see them seceding from the Seven Kingdoms. Which might eventually lead to war anyway. A semantic point, but still.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Regarding divorce, in addition to the hints noted by Alia and Stannis Lives above, I find the most compelling possibility, which answers the objections regarding the relative positions of Elia and her Dornish family, to be that Elia has done something to cause the separation- beyond being henceforward infertile.

In several discussions about the Arthurian parallels in asoiaf I have noted that Elia has distinct similarities with some of the Gwenhyfar storyline. (Oddly and OT here, so too does Lyanna.) Briefly regarding Elia, it should be noted that we know very little about her marriage, or her life prior to that marriage. Opinions about the relationship between R+E seem to range from negative (JC's "she was never worthy") to lukewarm (Barristan's "Rhaegar was fond of her"- I'm fond of a pair of socks I've had for several years, I'd be fairly insulted if that's how my husband's feelings for me were described ;)) On the other hand, as someone commented to me in another thread- Elia has her champions in her family and in fellow Dornishman Arthur Dayne (in his apparent defense of her honor with the Kingswood Brotherhood) None of her surviving family that we hear from ever mention her marriage to Rhaegar, speaking only of seeking "justice" for Elia and her children. All told, I don't think we can make a fair assessment yet of what her actions may have been before, during and after the events of R+L. The most certain thing we can say about her is that she seems to have been a virtual prisoner in KL following Aegon's birth.

My point is, there doesn't appear to be anything in the text which rules out divorce in general, and at-fault divorce specifically, as a possibility while there are a number of hints that actually support it as a possibility.

[Stannis Lives]

Not only bizarre, but problematic. It certainly wasn't the ideal solution.

I'm not sure if Dorne would have declared war over Rhaegar divorcing Elia, but I could definitely see them seceding from the Seven Kingdoms. Which might eventually lead to war anyway. A semantic point, but still.

the more I think about this, the more it bothers me. Rhaegar escaping to Dorne with the woman who replaced the dornish princess? I agree with Lady Gwynhyfvar as well. We constantly hear about Elia and her children in the Dorne POVs, but they never address their feelings for Rhaegar. Something isn't right here. What am I missing? Rhaegar was married to the princess of Dorne. An entire war broke out over him "stealing" Lyanna. He runs away to Dorne where he leaves Lyanna in the protection of a dornishman. The dornish princess and her children die because of his actions. And the dornish never mention him in a negative light?

[J. Stargaryen]

the more I think about this, the more it bothers me. Rhaegar escaping to Dorne with the woman who replaced the dornish princess? I agree with Lady Gwynhyfvar as well. We constantly hear about Elia and her children in the Dorne POVs, but they never address their feelings for Rhaegar. Something isn't right here. What am I missing? Rhaegar was married to the princess of Dorne. An entire war broke out over him "stealing" Lyanna. He runs away to Dorne where he leaves Lyanna in the protection of a dornishman. The dornish princess and her children die because of his actions. And the dornish never mention him in a negative light?

The war really began when Jon Arryn refused to send Aerys the heads of Ned and Robert, as he was ordered to do by the Mad King. Maybe more semantics, but I'm not convinced that war was inevitable just because Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. No doubt that Rhaegar absconding with Lyanna was the prologue to Robert's Rebellion, though.

Also, I'm sure Hightower was in charge when Rhaegar left.

---

ETA:

Lady Gwyn,

Are you implying that Elia was possibly unfaithful to Rhaegar? If so, she would have been awfully lucky to get off with being set aside/divorced. I believe trial by combat was in order. Otherwise, is there any other possible cause for Rhaegar to divorce her?

[Stannis Lives]

The war really began when Jon Arryn refused to send Aerys the heads of Ned and Robert, as he was ordered to do by the Mad King. Maybe more semantics, but I'm not convinced that war was inevitable just because Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. No doubt that Rhaegar absconding with Lyanna was the prologue to Robert's Rebellion, though.

Also, I'm sure Hightower was in charge when Rhaegar left.

Right, but why don't the dornishman hold the targs, and rhaegar specifically, responsible? Doran is still backing the targs claim and even had a secret pact in place. Wouldn't the dornish despise rhaegar for what he did?

[J. Stargaryen]

Right, but why don't the dornishman hold the targs, and rhaegar specifically, responsible? Doran is still backing the targs claim and even had a secret pact in place. Wouldn't the dornish despise rhaegar for what he did?

It seems as though they should, right? But maybe the Dornish knew that they had "sold" the Targs damaged goods in Elia. Because of that, they might have viewed Rhaegar's second marriage as defensible.

A more practical answer might be that the Dornish, with Elia set to be queen, were leery of the Starks' southron ambitions; a power base of Stark + Baratheon + Tully building up against the Targaryens, to whom the Martells had tied their fates. But with one fell swoop Rhaegar dashed those plans and tied the Starks to the throne, along with the Martells. So, in generations to come, the power base would have been Targaryen + Stark + Martell + Tully.

Funny, but in that above scenario, the most ideal marriage candidate for Robert Baratheon might have been Cersei Lannister. :) Which, btw, might have been another reason for the Martells to approve of bringing Lyanna, and therefore House Stark, into the fold. Otherwise it could have been a matter of time before Tywin married one, or both, of his children off to one of these lords to further consolidate power outside of KL.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

The war really began when Jon Arryn refused to send Aerys the heads of Ned and Robert, as he was ordered to do by the Mad King. Maybe more semantics, but I'm not convinced that war was inevitable just because Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. No doubt that Rhaegar absconding with Lyanna was the prologue to Robert's Rebellion, though.

Also, I'm sure Hightower was in charge when Rhaegar left.

---

ETA:

Lady Gwyn,

Are you implying that Elia was possibly unfaithful to Rhaegar? If so, she would have been awfully lucky to get off with being set aside/divorced. I believe trial by combat was in order. Otherwise, is there any other possible cause for Rhaegar to divorce her?

I'm implying that a number of scenarios exist, ranging from a baby swap (as discussed numerous times here in the past) to a situation vis a vis Lancelot & Gwenhyfvar's unconsummated passion, to yes outright adultery (admittedly the least likely, but not to be ruled out) Don't forget, Rhaegar was fond of Elia and even King Arthur didn't condemn Gwenhyfvar in all versions of the legend. I'm suggesting that Elia's behavior (whatever it was- we have no fair means to judge it yet) may have been Rhaegar's ticket out without angering Dorne.