Rhaeger & Robert were cousins

[Batman]

Wouldn't that be a "Lordship"?

Not important in the way that it matters to anyone but me, but still important.

[Faydra]

This is so similar with this thread:

[Kittykatknits]

No it wasn't. His ancestry was used by Ned and Jon Arryn, presumably because Ned didn't want the IT, Jon was too old, and somebody needed to rule after the Rebellion. Robert didn't care about his Targ ancestry and pretty much nobody in Westeros did either. His claim was through conquest, the same as what happened in Dance of Dragons and those were half-siblings.

His claim was through conquest sure, but you are limiting the value of his Targ ancestry. His ancestry also lent a sense of legitimacy to his claim and could be used with loyalists as well. He was the right choice for the rebellion to declare king, not merely because Ned didn't want it or Jon's age.

And also I think Rhaegar calls Robert cousin when Jaime was remembering his last moments with Rhaegar.

I think you're right. So, there was a recognition of family on both sides.

[WildBlood]

Maybe in nerdville

Where do you think you posted this thread? On espn.com?

[Light a wight tonight]

Maybe in nerdville

And where do you think you are? This is Beautiful Downtown Nerdville, where almost every aspect of the books has been discussed to death and beyond. At least twice.

[Groat]

No it wasn't. His ancestry was used by Ned and Jon Arryn, presumably because Ned didn't want the IT, Jon was too old, and somebody needed to rule after the Rebellion. Robert didn't care about his Targ ancestry and pretty much nobody in Westeros did either. His claim was through conquest, the same as what happened in Dance of Dragons and those were half-siblings.

No, his claim was because of his Targaryen ancestry, he won the throne through conquest. You need to have the right lineage to make a claim, then you need the arms to win the claim. At some point around the battle of the Trident, Robert decided to make a claim for the throne, and it was because of his lineage. I agree Ned, Jon, and Hoster all agreed Robert was the ideal candidate for the throne, but Robert had the blood to make a claim.

[UVA]

No it wasn't. His ancestry was used by Ned and Jon Arryn, presumably because Ned didn't want the IT, Jon was too old, and somebody needed to rule after the Rebellion. Robert didn't care about his Targ ancestry and pretty much nobody in Westeros did either. His claim was through conquest, the same as what happened in Dance of Dragons and those were half-siblings.

No, K3 is correct, and an important distinction needs to be made: the 'right' of conquest gave Robert the power to rule and his Targaryen ancestry legitimized his claim (arguably very weak though). I think the blood claim is ancillary to Robert's act of conquest in that he didn't initiate a rebellion on the basis of his claim, and claims are just generally weak concepts insofar as Martin uses them in the series.

IIRC Robert didn't state his intentions to take the IT until the Battle of the Trident. But consider the fact that his blood claim mattered enough to be used by the rebels as the basis of his kingship.

ETA: Sorry Groat I posted before reading your excellent explanation. But I agree. :-)

[Korgon The Reaver]

This is so similar with this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...e-are-brothers/

lol dude there is no explicit mention in the books AT ALL regarding Robert and Rhaegar's close kinship or who their respective grandparents are. I know how OBVIOUS all this sounds when you live on internet forums, but for people who just do something as basic and stupid as "read the books", it's not common sense, and there isn't enough information to even make a logical deduction.

[Morienthar]

Well yes Bob was a Kinslayer his rule was doomed from the minute it started.

[Korgon The Reaver]

. His ancestry also lent a sense of legitimacy to his claim and could be used with loyalists as well. .

And where in the books is this mentioned?

[Groat]

ETA: Sorry Groat I posted before reading your excellent explanation. But I agree. :-)

:cheers:

I found your explanation to be better worded than mine, and I agree with all you said.

I've grappled with this for a while because it's so ambiguous in the text, but I think I finally have a grasp of what's going on.

[Ser Leftwich]

lol dude there is no explicit mention in the books AT ALL regarding Robert and Rhaegar's close kinship or who their respective grandparents are. I know how OBVIOUS all this sounds when you live on internet forums, but for people who just do something as basic and stupid as "read the books", it's not common sense, and there isn't enough information to even make a logical deduction.

"Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.”" AFfC p 118.

[Kuther2000]

I don't buy this Robert is a kinslayer especially since no one even references that not even behind his back. Karstark was a desperate man who was about to die. If Robert hadn't killed Rhaegar, then Rhaegar would have killed him so by that logic he would be a doomed kinslayer too.

[Kittykatknits]

And where in the books is this mentioned?

It's not explicitly stated in a single line but then again, it doesn't need to be.It's typical Martin style, he's slowly explaining RR in small pieces throughout the series. We know Robert has Targ blood, he didn't declare his intent until after the Trident, the issue of blood as giving someone a claim or right, the IT was established by Targs, there were loyalists still holding out even after the Trident, there was a need to establish legitimacy to the throne beyond just "conquest".

It allows Robert to both take the throne via conquest while also reinforcing the idea of blood establishing rights, lending stability to his reign.

[protar]

Maybe in nerdville

You're in Nerdville :P

[Morienthar]

I don't buy this Robert is a kinslayer especially since no one even references that not even behind his back. Karstark was a desperate man who was about to die. If Robert hadn't killed Rhaegar, then Rhaegar would have killed him so by that logic he would be a doomed kinslayer too.

Yes he would have.

[Dr. Pepper]

lol dude there is no explicit mention in the books AT ALL regarding Robert and Rhaegar's close kinship or who their respective grandparents are. I know how OBVIOUS all this sounds when you live on internet forums, but for people who just do something as basic and stupid as "read the books", it's not common sense, and there isn't enough information to even make a logical deduction.

On top of the quote Ser Leftwich provided, we are also told exactly how Robert was related:

". Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg’s little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father’s mother"

This is Maester Aemon speaking to Sam.

[UVA]

I think it's a real stretch to call Robert a kinslayer because he is relatively far removed from the main Targaryen line.

:cheers:

I found your explanation to be better worded than mine, and I agree with all you said.

I've grappled with this for a while because it's so ambiguous in the text, but I think I finally have a grasp of what's going on.

Lol, thanks! But yes, I think you have the right of it. Legitimate rule issues are really muddled in the series, and they are difficult to parse out chiefly due to the fact that no codified laws or legit lawmaking bodies exist to unpack and settle the controversies. When violent force has not been used, succession/legitimate rule has been typically addressed in-universe through precedent and tradition, and even then this has been overridden (The Great Council with Aegon V) and liable to change.

It allows Robert to both take the throne via conquest while also reinforcing the idea of blood establishing rights, lending stability to his reign.

Yea, I would argue that the rationale for using Robert's ancestry as a means to legitimize his rule by the rebels was to placate loyalists and the general populace, who typically default to the status quo. In this very broad sense Robert represented the current regime.

[Harpo of House Trashcan]

Yah, pretty much, not a lot to say here.

[Duncan the Average Sized]

An unnamed Baratheon lord married Aegon V (Egg's) daughter, is there any reason to think it was the son or grandson of Lyonel Baratheon "The laughing storm" and Aegon agreed due to the service they provided by fighting in the trial of the seven?

Or did solely let them "marry for love" as is mentioned elsewhere?