Is the queen of thorns sexist?

[Lala]

First of all, I think that Olenna is deliberately exaggerating about men, to make Sansa feel comfortable enough to tell the truth. After all this talk about how foolish men are, and that all the mess of the war is a refult of their foolishness, she goes on to say:

“Are you frightened, child? No need for that, we’re only women here. Tell me the truth, no harm will come to you.”

Her remark on eunuchs may very well be a way to downplay the danger that Varys represents. Later, she uses again the men/women distinction that she has built, that "girls" can outsmart him:

“Even when I was a girl younger than you, it was well known that in the Red Keep the very walls have ears. Well, they will be the better for a song, and meanwhile we girls shall speak freely.”

This does not mean that the things she said do not reflect her real opinion. I believe that the core of her speech is the essence of her life experience, seasoned with bits of bitterness and sarcasm.

- Olenna is an intelligent person, with more understanding of politics and power structures than most men, but her voice is not welcome. There is entirely too much tut-tutting in this realm, if you ask me.

- Olenna has probably had to undo a lot of stupid moves that her oafish men have made, against her advice. After Lord Puff Fish put that crown on Renly’s head, we were into the pudding up to our knees, so here we are to see things through.

- Olenna understands the danger of the Game. The main problem with her men's foolishness (and men are the ones who have the final word in such matters) is that it puts her family in danger. All men are fools, if truth be told, but the ones in motley are more amusing than ones with crowns.

She clearly does not believe that all men are stupid - Willas is not the least bit oafish, by her words. Even for Loras, her opinion is not dismissive:

“Loras is young,” Lady Olenna said crisply, “and very good at knocking men off horses with a stick. That does not make him wise. ..."

I also thought that this comment about Loras was interesting, in regards to the distinction between martial abilities and wisdom. Westeros as a culture puts a lot of weight in martial abilities and valor in battle. People who excel in these sectors get a lot more respect than ones with intellectual interests and accomplishments. They weight more in their society. So, "masculine" pursuits and the sort of pride they get by such accomplishments would make men (in general) look even more oafish in the eyes of an intelligent person like Olenna.

Olenna is also old. She is probably tired of a lifetime finding side ways to have a say. I think it must be tiring to have to manipulate your own family, just to make them listen... I also wonder how many times she has had to stomach comments like "a woman is only useful to produce heirs" and having to respond courteously like a lady must - Randyll Tarly being an important Tyrel bannerman, I'd guess it's a lot of times... I believe her quote about "the useful bits of a man" is just a sarcastic reversal of such comments.

This is an interesting and well-thought out analysis! I agree with much of what you said, though I also don't think this excuses the sexist attitude of her comments.

The point about "wisdom" is interesting - Cat brings up a similar point about LF in AGoT - she says that LF has always been clever, but never wise.

[l3ol3o]

I can't find any decent source for the Obama quote. Could someone point one out?

Yes. Here is MP3 audio from a campaign speech. It's a variation of what he said but the point remains the same.

http://www.hark.com/clips/ffvlbvqlmb-anything-the-boys-can-do

"Women can do anything the boys can do! And do it better! And do it in heels!" Of course he gets a huge cheer at the end.

One of the worst examples of the double standard in society when it comes to sexism is what happened on "The Talk" though.

I don't know if people are familiar with the Catherine Becker case but her husband filed for divorce so what did she do? She drugged him and when he went to bed because he wasn't feeling good she tied him up and castrated him. Then she threw his junk in the garbage disposable and chopped it up. Well this made news and it was talked about on the show "The Talk".

What did Sharron Osbourne think about it? She said it was "quite fabulous" and "hysterical". The disgusting audience cheered, laughed, and agreed. Watch the video.

It's absolutely disgusting how gleeful some of these women are at a man getting sexually mutilated for no reason other then filing for divorce. Sharron at least didn't seem to agree with throwing it in the garbage disposable though and said she would have thrown it in her dog's bowl instead. :ack:

Just imagine if a woman filed for divorced and her husband drugged her, tied her up and sexually mutilated her.

Could you imagine a discussion like this on the man show? Jimmy Kimmel tells the story of what happened and Adam Carolla called the sexual mutilation "fabulous" and "hysterical" while all the men in the audience laugh and cheer with glee? It would be reprehensible and disgusting. The hosts would be fired and the show cancelled.

But sexism against men in society is not only acceptable, it's fashionable and gets met with cheers.

These views are mirrored on this board. Sexism against men is just a joke and excused in the minds of many so called advocates of "gender equality".

No sane feminist calls for the castration of all men-just the ugly ones.

Now this is obviously a joke but just think if that was changed to "No sane man calls for the sexual mutilation of all women-just the ugly ones". What do you think the response would be? Obviously that is a misogynist comment whether it's a joke or not. Joking about the sexual mutilation of either gender isn't funny.

The point remains though that the QoT said men are only useful because of their reproductive value. This is just as sexist as saying women are only useful because of their reproductive value. I can't see how people are saying it isn't. Just because she is facetious and witty doesn't excuse her anymore then it excuses Tyrion who is also facetious and witty.

And yes there is much more sexism towards women in this series but it doesn't excuse the women who are sexist towards men. This would be like saying Joffrey isn't bad because Ramsey is worse.

[Eating My Wings]

Awesome thread!

And about Olenna. She lives in a society infested by Lord Tarly, she has no choice but to embrace aggressive feminism!

[tormund's beard]

not this again for the love of god.

e-ro you can not win dude, not in this forum.

lets talk about how stannis is awesome instead.

[The Great Walrus]

not this again for the love of god.

e-ro you can not win dude, not in this forum.

lets talk about how stannis is awesome instead.

Well the thing is E-Ro has reached enlightement, and as learned one truth from it: The Forum is Dark and Full of Stannis.

[Pero the first of His name]

When QoT exaggerates in a joke to make a point everyone percieves it as such.

When Tyrion does the same he truly means it and if you try to defend him for how his mind and mouth work you immediatelly get tons of thumbs down.

[tormund's beard]

When QoT exaggerates in a joke to make a point everyone percieves it as such.

When Tyrion does the same he truly means it and if you try to defend him for how his mind and mouth work you immediatelly get tons of thumbs down.

welcome to life in planet earth when you have to pay for the mistakes of your grandfathers.

[Lord Reaver]

But for heavens sake, don't say anything about it, because then you're 'whining'....

[Pero the first of His name]

welcome to life in planet earth when you have to pay for the mistakes of your grandfathers.

”We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance in our steads.”

[Lala]

When QoT exaggerates in a joke to make a point everyone percieves it as such.

When Tyrion does the same he truly means it and if you try to defend him for how his mind and mouth work you immediatelly get tons of thumbs down.

Actually, most of us (myself, Winter's Knight, Eleana) have generally made the point that Lady Olenna's comment is sexist (if you care to look upthread) after doing some soul searching and adjusting our frames of reference.

However, there is an enormous difference between when Lady Olenna makes these "jokes" and when Tyrion does - it's the difference between a small five-year old who has never hit another human being in their life saying "I want to punch you!" vs a large, muscled man with a history of violence saying "I want to punch you!" The aggression and threat behind the statement varies significantly between the two speakers because of their ability to act upon that statement and their past behavior.

I do not excuse Lady Olenna's comments. You should not trivialize the very uncomfortable misogyny exemplified by characters like Tyrion and Tywin.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

i dont think Lady O is harmless, i think she is very capable of dealing with foes in a violent and fatal way

[Pero the first of His name]

Actually, most of us (myself, Winter's Knight, Eleana) have generally made the point that Lady Olenna's comment is sexist (if you care to look upthread) after doing some soul searching and adjusting our frames of reference.

However, there is an enormous difference between when Lady Olenna makes these "jokes" and when Tyrion does - it's the difference between a small five-year old who has never hit another human being in their life saying "I want to punch you!" vs a large, muscled man with a history of violence saying "I want to punch you!" The aggression and threat behind the statement varies significantly between the two speakers because of their ability to act upon that statement and their past behavior.

I do not excuse Lady Olenna's comments. You should not trivialize the very uncomfortable misogyny exemplified by characters like Tyrion and Tywin.

So the logic is,

A weak woman and a strong man both express a desire to hurt/kill somebody, therefore the man is more evil?

A woman has her way to kill a man too.

A lot of people, good people, have had violent and evil thoughts even expressing some of them outloud but have not done the deed not because of lack of ``balls`` but because of understanding how wrong it is quickly.

When the mind crosses from thought to thought and examining there are evil ones too which are disregarded and changed.

Also sometimes people exaggerate when speaking to someone to appear more scary or resolute.

Or is it just my mind that has a little evil side?

Both QoT and Tyrion display some sexism in different ways.

QoT with seeing men as less intelligent, capable in some ways and a bit too lusty partly because of the experience of the men around her, mostly her family.

Tyrion`s attitude towards whores is very wrong too, caused by the Tysha rape and him being ugly to woman but rich and powerful at the same time.

Yet he is not really a sexist in thinking women are less capable from what i recollect, its just he abuses his privilleges with whores and sex slaves.

I was not defending them from sexism so much as trying, once again, to make my wievpoint of how and why Tyrion thinks and speaks the way he does.

[Pinkie Baelish]

snip

Ugh, thanks for reminding me of that Sharon Osbourne incident. That clip makes my blood boil every time I see it.

What's even more messed up is the fact that she's not alone in her laughter. The entire studio audience seems to think it's hilarious. Now, if a male-hosted show had called a husband raping his wife or cutting off her breasts for seeking a divorce "fabulous", not only would the episode be banned from airing, but the man that made the comment would be out of a job right now.

We see this same flippant attitude in the GOT and ASOIAF fandom sometimes as well, what with all the "lole Theon has no dick now XD" comments. What Theon and the Unsullied go through is sickening - as sickening as the suffering of Lollys or Jeyne Poole. It reminds me of that Sady Doyle piece, where she berated the series for the excessive amounts of rape(which to be fair, is a valid criticism) but completely ignores the treatment of Theon and the Unsullied, and the countless men that die fighting as well.

As for this QOT sexist debate, there's no denying that she is sexist, and it's nice that someone pointed this out, but I would prefer that her entire character not be judged on these comments. In the same way that I don't think Tyrion's own sexist views define or summarise his character.

inb4 someone points out the irony of a guy with a Roose Bolton avatar being disgusted by torture

[tormund's beard]

yeah the QoT her being sexist is just another layer to the onion.

[The Fallen]

` I'm a male and a realist. Women are still not viewed as equal by lots of men. Some who I know personally. I know educated, pretty intelligent men who claim to view women as equals, but they're actions say otherwise. Now, I'm not saying that they mentally, verbally or physically abuse women (although one of my close friends has put his hands on women in the past). But they don't value a woman's opinion, or feel that a woman shouldn't meddle in the affairs of men. These are outdated views to me and it amazes me that men still feel that way. Especially the ones who I would think would know better than that.

We hear about women being subjected to sexual harassment at work constantly. Not so much about men being subjected to the same experience, especially when the majority of bosses are still men. So there isn't equality. Men still hold more power, both socially and physically, over women. So when I hear a man complaining about something like the women on 'The Talk' I can't take it seriously. When was the last time a man was cowed by a woman? Or had to watch what he said as to avoid sever repercussions, especially physically, from a woman?

Were the women on 'The Talk' wrong for celebrating? Yes. But I can see why they would react that way. Especially when the topic is divorce, something that usually leaves women in very bad positions. (I wonder how many women end up in the street for every woman who gets a big payday?) So we see them vicariously get a point in the win column through this lady. And I'm not condoning the actions of the crazy lady who committed that atrocious act.

That's why I refer to it as whining. Men shouldn't get their panties in a bunch over 'The Talk'. If you want to get mad at the crazy lady, by all means, do it. But I don't think Sharon Osbourne is public enemy number one.

[tormund's beard]

` I'm a male and a realist. Women are still not viewed as equal by lots of men. Some who I know personally. I know educated, pretty intelligent men who claim to view women as equals, but they're actions say otherwise. Now, I'm not saying that they mentally, verbally or physically abuse women (although one of my close friends has put his hands on women in the past). But they don't value a woman's opinion, or feel that a woman shouldn't meddle in the affairs of men. These are outdated views to me and it amazes me that men still feel that way. Especially the ones who I would think would know better than that.

We hear about women being subjected to sexual harassment at work constantly. Not so much about men being subjected to the same experience, especially when the majority of bosses are still men. So there isn't equality. Men still hold more power, both socially and physically, over women. So when I hear a man complaining about something like the women on 'The Talk' I can't take it seriously. When was the last time a man was cowed by a woman? Or had to watch what he said as to avoid sever repercussions, especially physically, from a woman?

Were the women on 'The Talk' wrong for celebrating? Yes. But I can see why they would react that way. Especially when the topic is divorce, something that usually leaves women in very bad positions. (I wonder how many women end up in the street for every woman who gets a big payday?) So we see them vicariously get a point in the win column through this lady. And I'm not condoning the actions of the crazy lady who committed that atrocious act.

That's why I refer to it as whining. Men shouldn't get their panties in a bunch over 'The Talk'. If you want to get mad at the crazy lady, by all means, do it. But I don't think Sharon Osbourne is public enemy number one.

you should think again dude it's praising the crazy lady's actions and sending a clearly "thats and okay thing to do! go get them girl!"

[Kittykatknits]

Great post

Lots of good insight here, I agree with many of your conclusions.

I'd like to see you expand on the subject. My take was that you were not agreeing with E-Ro much if at all. (Oops, is this sounding like chat?)

I wrote that after a few (or five or so) glasses of wine last night, forgot the thread existed until I got back up this morning. I both agree and disagree with E-Ro as I'm not comfortable calling the QoT a sexist nor do I think we should dismiss her comments outright. Rather, they should be put in context of who she is, the purpose behind them, and the culture she is in.

From what I gather of Lady Olenna, she seems to be rather dismissive of everyone until they persuade her differently with this approach being applied to both men and women fairly equally. The QoT works behind the scene, directing power and influencing her family to protect/further Tyrell interests. For example, she couldn't prevent Marg becoming Queen but she could influence who would be the king. ShadowCat Rivers already did a great breakdown of the scene so I'm not going to repeat it. On the whole, I consider her statements rather mild when put in the wider context and in comparison to the repeated and sustained level of sexism directed towards women.

However, I also agree that her statements, by themselves, are sexist statements. Of course, not all men are fools and a man is much more than his "useful bits". The real significance of her lines though are not just the two quoted in the OP but what she also says about Loras here. Westeros has a martial culture, a man needs to be able to fight and wield a sword. But, as Olenna points out, the ability to swing a sword does not make a man wise. The same exact thing can be said about Mace with his big army. In fact, the most intelligent men in the series seem to have little in the way of fighting skill: Tyrion, Sam, and Varys. The mind is just as valuable a weapon but it doesn't seem to garner the same level of respect. Olenna is pointing out some of the hypocrisy of the patriarchal culture, a culture that is reinforced by the men I would add.

Out of all the lines mentioned in this thread so far, her comment about eunuchs and reference to Varys as a creature bother me the most. Eunuchs seem to experience the same levels of prejudice as dwarves from what I can tell and her beliefs reflect that. Castration is a despicable act and its the ultimate act of reducing a man to his parts, makes him an object as the one who performs the castration has the power to permanently main a man for his own ends. Olenna's statement, although tongue in cheek, reflects the idea that a castrated man is less than whole, devoid of his virility and of less worth. However, her question as to what is the point of a eunuch has merit. Sadly, the answer is to sexually assault a man for someone else's ends.

As to castration, the reason why I believe it does not get as much traction or notice on this board as it's not something many of us can personally relate too. I'd hazard a guess few, if any, on this board have personal experience with castration. But, many, many women have very personal experience with rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment, and sexual discrimination. It's also not a stretch that the men on this board know of women who have been subjected to the above actions. Unfortunately, it's a common part of our world so we react to it. It's personal.

I'd also agree with others (WK, Lala, and others I mention) that although I call out the QoT for her sexism I see a big difference between her as an isolated case and the sustained, ongoing, and reinforced sexism and misognry displayed by almost every single male character throughout the series. There's some priveleged distress at play here. Her comments, although wrong, does not result in the same degree of harm that women are subjected too.

Earlier in this thread, I comments on sexism against men and women and references to class issues. I believe it was WK who pointed out that we are seeing kyriarchy in action.

Kyriarchy ("rule by a lord"; from the Greek κύριος/kyrios "lord or master" and αρχή/arche "authority, leadership") is a social system or set of connecting social systems built around domination, oppression, and submission. The word itself is a neologism coined by Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza to describe interconnected, interacting, and self-extending systems of domination and submission, in which a single individual might be oppressed in some relationships and privileged in others.^[1] It is an intersectional extension of the idea of patriarchy^[1] beyond gender. Kyriarchy encompasses sexism, racism, economic injustice, and other forms of dominating hierarchy in which the subordination of one person or group to another is internalized and institutionalized.^[2]

I do believe that Martin has set up a world that superficially resembles our own, complete with sexism, racism, homophopia, ablism, classism, and many other social constraints that put people in to a system where they can both suffer and benefit from privilege. Some of the issues he magnifies to make his point, especially classism and misogyny. Actually, the more that I think about it, the idea of kyriarchy and interdependent systems is a topic to explore all on its own. It'd make for a great OP.

[Lord Reaver]

I'd also agree with others (WK, Lala, and others I mention) that although I call out the QoT for her sexism I see a big difference between her as an isolated case and the sustained, ongoing, and reinforced sexism and misognry displayed by almost every single male character throughout the series. There's some priveleged distress at play here. Her comments, although wrong, does not result in the same degree of harm that women are subjected too.

I don't quite see how you can invoke privileged distress here. Last I checked, neither I nor any other poster was actually part of the privileged patriarchal society of Westeros...

[The Fallen]

you should think again dude it's praising the crazy lady's actions and sending a clearly "thats and okay thing to do! go get them girl!"

I hear you, but it's TV. I'm sure if Sharon was asked for her personal opinion she wouldn't praise the lady. And if she does then that says a lot about her. But I don't think we need to fear an avalanche of women going through divorce deciding to cut off their soon-to-be-ex husbands penises. It was the actions of a crazy woman.

[Kittykatknits]

I don't quite see how you can invoke privileged distress here. Last I checked, neither I nor any other poster was actually part of the privileged patriarchal society of Westeros...

I was attempting to explain why I (and others in this thread) are not reacting in the same way to Olenna's comments that we have towards the misogny and sexual discrimanation directed by men towards women in the series. Yes, she is wrong, however her words do not cause nearly the degree of harm to any male character in the series as what happens to the women. The men are in a position of privilege over the women.