Is the queen of thorns sexist?

[Fearsedge]

` I'm a male and a realist. Women are still not viewed as equal by lots of men. Some who I know personally. I know educated, pretty intelligent men who claim to view women as equals, but they're actions say otherwise. Now, I'm not saying that they mentally, verbally or physically abuse women (although one of my close friends has put his hands on women in the past). But they don't value a woman's opinion, or feel that a woman shouldn't meddle in the affairs of men. These are outdated views to me and it amazes me that men still feel that way. Especially the ones who I would think would know better than that.

We hear about women being subjected to sexual harassment at work constantly. Not so much about men being subjected to the same experience, especially when the majority of bosses are still men. So there isn't equality. Men still hold more power, both socially and physically, over women. So when I hear a man complaining about something like the women on 'The Talk' I can't take it seriously. When was the last time a man was cowed by a woman? Or had to watch what he said as to avoid sever repercussions, especially physically, from a woman?

Were the women on 'The Talk' wrong for celebrating? Yes. But I can see why they would react that way. Especially when the topic is divorce, something that usually leaves women in very bad positions. (I wonder how many women end up in the street for every woman who gets a big payday?) So we see them vicariously get a point in the win column through this lady. And I'm not condoning the actions of the crazy lady who committed that atrocious act.

That's why I refer to it as whining. Men shouldn't get their panties in a bunch over 'The Talk'. If you want to get mad at the crazy lady, by all means, do it. But I don't think Sharon Osbourne is public enemy number one.

Pointing out how socially acceptable mutilating men is(hence all the laughter, and jokes on this thread) is "whining." Pointing out that a fiction book has many instances of rape is valid criticism of a mysogynistic work. Men can't suffer sexism, just stop whining. It's okay for a woman to be sexist, because I can easily reduce all women to victims of sexism, and in our society being a victim gets you special privileges. Men, especially white men, are the cause of the worlds problems, and thus cannot be victims. Even if we are talking about sexually mutilating an infant male who has done nothing to anybody(circumcision), that's okay. I can't even point out how disgusting someone gleefully laughing at a mutilated man is without someone saying "don't get your panties in a bunch".

I say the same thing to women complaining that a comic book cover is sexist, and I am suddenly a sexist. The double standard kills me, and it's made worse by the fact that men shun each other for bringing it up. Men will fight on the behalf of women even against their own interests, hence the takeover of western politics by feminism.

[Lala]

Lots of good insight here, I agree with many of your conclusions.

I wrote that after a few (or five or so) glasses of wine last night, forgot the thread existed until I got back up this morning. I both agree and disagree with E-Ro as I'm not comfortable calling the QoT a sexist nor do I think we should dismiss her comments outright. Rather, they should be put in context of who she is, the purpose behind them, and the culture she is in.

From what I gather of Lady Olenna, she seems to be rather dismissive of everyone until they persuade her differently with this approach being applied to both men and women fairly equally. The QoT works behind the scene, directing power and influencing her family to protect/further Tyrell interests. For example, she couldn't prevent Marg becoming Queen but she could influence who would be the king. ShadowCat Rivers already did a great breakdown of the scene so I'm not going to repeat it. On the whole, I consider her statements rather mild when put in the wider context and in comparison to the repeated and sustained level of sexism directed towards women.

However, I also agree that her statements, by themselves, are sexist statements. Of course, not all men are fools and a man is much more than his "useful bits". The real significance of her lines though are not just the two quoted in the OP but what she also says about Loras here. Westeros has a martial culture, a man needs to be able to fight and wield a sword. But, as Olenna points out, the ability to swing a sword does not make a man wise. The same exact thing can be said about Mace with his big army. In fact, the most intelligent men in the series seem to have little in the way of fighting skill: Tyrion, Sam, and Varys. The mind is just as valuable a weapon but it doesn't seem to garner the same level of respect. Olenna is pointing out some of the hypocrisy of the patriarchal culture, a culture that is reinforced by the men I would add.

Out of all the lines mentioned in this thread so far, her comment about eunuchs and reference to Varys as a creature bother me the most. Eunuchs seem to experience the same levels of prejudice as dwarves from what I can tell and her beliefs reflect that. Castration is a despicable act and its the ultimate act of reducing a man to his parts, makes him an object as the one who performs the castration has the power to permanently main a man for his own ends. Olenna's statement, although tongue in cheek, reflects the idea that a castrated man is less than whole, devoid of his virility and of less worth. However, her question as to what is the point of a eunuch has merit. Sadly, the answer is to sexually assault a man for someone else's ends.

As to castration, the reason why I believe it does not get as much traction or notice on this board as it's not something many of us can personally relate too. I'd hazard a guess few, if any, on this board have personal experience with castration. But, many, many women have very personal experience with rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment, and sexual discrimination. It's also not a stretch that the men on this board know of women who have been subjected to the above actions. Unfortunately, it's a common part of our world so we react to it. It's personal.

I'd also agree with others (WK, Lala, and others I mention) that although I call out the QoT for her sexism I see a big difference between her as an isolated case and the sustained, ongoing, and reinforced sexism and misognry displayed by almost every single male character throughout the series. There's some priveleged distress at play here. Her comments, although wrong, does not result in the same degree of harm that women are subjected too.

Earlier in this thread, I comments on sexism against men and women and references to class issues. I believe it was WK who pointed out that we are seeing kyriarchy in action.

I do believe that Martin has set up a world that superficially resembles our own, complete with sexism, racism, homophopia, ablism, classism, and many other social constraints that put people in to a system where they can both suffer and benefit from privilege. Some of the issues he magnifies to make his point, especially classism and misogyny. Actually, the more that I think about it, the idea of kyriarchy and interdependent systems is a topic to explore all on its own. It'd make for a great OP.

Awesome post as always kitty! And please do - that would be a fascinating read.

I was attempting to explain why I (and others in this thread) are not reacting in the same way to Olenna's comments that we have towards the misogny and sexual discrimanation directed by men towards women in the series. Yes, she is wrong, however her words do not cause nearly the degree of harm to any male character in the series as what happens to the women. The men are in a position of privilege over the women.

Yes~

Also just to point out - I find the Sharon Osbourne example despicable in every way - the attitude that she exhibited to the mutilation of another human being and the reaction of the audience are both very troubling and very very inappropriate. I'm extremely shocked that she would have considered that appropriate in any way and that the network decided to air it.

[The Dragon King]

Pointing out how socially acceptable mutilating men is(hence all the laughter, and jokes on this thread) is "whining." Pointing out that a fiction book has many instances of rape is valid criticism of a mysogynistic work. Men can't suffer sexism, just stop whining. It's okay for a woman to be sexist, because I can easily reduce all women to victims of sexism, and in our society being a victim gets you special privileges. Men, especially white men, are the cause of the worlds problems, and thus cannot be victims. Even if we are talking about sexually mutilating an infant male who has done nothing to anybody(circumcision), that's okay. I can't even point out how disgusting someone gleefully laughing at a mutilated man is without someone saying "don't get your panties in a bunch".

I say the same thing to women complaining that a comic book cover is sexist, and I am suddenly a sexist. The double standard kills me, and it's made worse by the fact that men shun each other for bringing it up. Men will fight on the behalf of women even against their own interests, hence the takeover of western politics by feminism.

I agree 100%, fantastic post, keep it up.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Well, since women are clearly not emancipated in ASOIAF this should be what makes the Queen of Thorns the Queen of Thorns, no? That she has the wits and the courage to mock men in the world of men. Olenna is fun and wise and cunning, and all she means is make people take masculinity and men a little less seriously, since her character is mainly a comic relief.

As for those quotes being offensive... I have never ever found anything in the books that would offend me as a woman and today I was reminded only about three times that I'm unable to set up the sun beds because my ID number starts with no 2 (which if for female here)... so what? There was nothing to get offended by, because it wasn't meant as an offense, only a jest and a tease and I was unable to set up a stupid bed alone too, because it was too heavy and I'm small. Same way, WHO puts the car keys in the bathroom drawer? Just who? Men. And who finds it? Me. Nothing sexist about that either...

If I really want to call somebody a sexist in the series that should be... duh... really... Theon? Victarion maybe... I don't really know...

Hai Double Standard, how are you doing?

<_<

Look, it is fucking disrespectful to tell men to "stop whining" about sexism against them-one symptom of a misogynistic society is the ridiculous amount of pressure put on men to e manly. This is not an empty claim-sure it's nowhere near Randyll Tarly levels of sexism, nor is it as bad as what Westerosi women face but it is present and remarking upon it doesn't mean E-ro is whining or being petty.

If a topic doesn't interest you or doesn't seem worthy of discussion, walk away-don't come in and tell people who are interested in said topic that they are wasting their time, mmmk?

Oh wow, WK! Im really proud of you in seeing this post. :)

Yes, she is wrong, however her words do not cause nearly the degree of harm to any male character in the series as what happens to the women.

No, they really dont, but we cant dismiss it either if we want to remain consistent. One thing that boils my beans (as many here already know) the most in discussions like this, is the dreaded Double Standard. It is NOT ok to be a raging sexist even if its coming from an unsuspecting source. While i actually think Olenna isnt so much sexist as she is ageist, and really cantankerous, she does make a lot of comments that are cause to raise eyebrows. Her dismissal of men as incompetents is a good example. Olenna does go both ways with this by calling her ladies "silly hens" and stuff like that too. Most of what she says can easily be dismissed as harmless snark because Olenna embodies a different trope than "HeWoman Man Hater".

Shes the "Screw Politeness, Im Old!"

This kind of stuff seems funny coming from an old lady. Like when people would laugh at my grandpa's bigoted jokes...because he was old. Yeah ok, but it doesnt always make it right. While Olenna isnt one thats gonna have men castrated simply because they make a silly mistake, she doesnt set the best example either.

this thread did give me a chuckle though. :P

[tormund's beard]

Pointing out how socially acceptable mutilating men is(hence all the laughter, and jokes on this thread) is "whining." Pointing out that a fiction book has many instances of rape is valid criticism of a mysogynistic work. Men can't suffer sexism, just stop whining. It's okay for a woman to be sexist, because I can easily reduce all women to victims of sexism, and in our society being a victim gets you special privileges. Men, especially white men, are the cause of the worlds problems, and thus cannot be victims. Even if we are talking about sexually mutilating an infant male who has done nothing to anybody(circumcision), that's okay. I can't even point out how disgusting someone gleefully laughing at a mutilated man is without someone saying "don't get your panties in a bunch".

I say the same thing to women complaining that a comic book cover is sexist, and I am suddenly a sexist. The double standard kills me, and it's made worse by the fact that men shun each other for bringing it up. Men will fight on the behalf of women even against their own interests, hence the takeover of western politics by feminism.

i give this post 4 stannises out of 5.

[Fearsedge]

i give this post 4 stannises out of 5.

Wow, that is generous. I mean, one Stannis is awesome enough. I don't think I even need five. Then we'd have an all-Stannis war of the five kings. Westeros couldn't handle it.

[thenedstark]

:bang:

[E-Ro]

Troll thread 2/10. Try harder next time. :)

Pointless post that contributes nothing -5/10 Try harder next time.

[Kittykatknits]

Awesome post as always kitty! And please do - that would be a fascinating read.

Yes~

Also just to point out - I find the Sharon Osbourne example despicable in every way - the attitude that she exhibited to the mutilation of another human being and the reaction of the audience are both very troubling and very very inappropriate. I'm extremely shocked that she would have considered that appropriate in any way and that the network decided to air it.

Thanks.

Also, I have no idea what this Sharon Osbourne example is so I'm not commenting on it.

[The Great Walrus]

Thanks.

Also, I have no idea what this Sharon Osbourne example is so I'm not commenting on it.

It was where Sharon Osbourne and the View applauded a woman for castrating her husband after he told her he wanted a divorce.

[TalalOfDorne]

I really cant make my mind up on this. Can her remarks be viewed as sexist? I guess so. Should they? I lean towards yes, but they were just remarks after all.

I guess thats how she "fights back" in the society she lives in.

It was where Sharon Osbourne and the View applauded a woman for castrating her husband after he told her he wanted a divorce.

I really dont know what to say.

[The Drunkard]

i give this post 4 stannises out of 5.

:drunk: Great ranking system.

It was where Sharon Osbourne and the View applauded a woman for castrating her husband after he told her he wanted a divorce.

:stillsick:

[Lala]

It was where Sharon Osbourne and the View applauded a woman for castrating her husband after he told her he wanted a divorce.

I really cant make my mind up on this. Can her remarks be viewed as sexist? I guess so. Should they? I lean towards yes, but they were just remarks after all.

I guess thats how she "fights back" in the society she lives in.

I really dont know what to say.

Sometimes words just don't even begin to describe it

[I know I know]

This thread is a laugh.

:agree:

sex·ism

Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

The word is stupid. Everyone is a "sexist".

Also, everyone has prejudices that dogs cannot talk. Everyone is a "speciesist".

[Florina Laufeyson]

Yuck. Reminds me of the Loranna Bobbit case which was really fucked up. :ack: (in regard to the Sharon Osbourne remark)

[Kittykatknits]

It was where Sharon Osbourne and the View applauded a woman for castrating her husband after he told her he wanted a divorce.

I needed to look up who Sharon Osbourne was. That's pretty awful. I have a suspicion the case is more complex than this, either way castration is another form of sexual assault and therefore wrong.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I needed to look up who Sharon Osbourne was. That's pretty awful. I have a suspicion the case is more complex than this, either way castration is another form of sexual assault and therefore wrong.

From what I read, she drugged him, then tied him up and castrated him, and then threw it in the garbage disposal. Yeah...

Some news reports said it was partly caused by a disagreement over him allowing some guest to stay at the house.

[Kittykatknits]

<snip>

E-Ro, now that you (I assume) have read the entire thread, I'm curious what your thoughts are now. Don't suppose I could talk you in to sharing?

[E-Ro]

E-Ro, now that you (I assume) have read the entire thread, I'm curious what your thoughts are now. Don't suppose I could talk you in to sharing?

Well, this has been an interesting topic, and my opinion has definitely changed some. Looking back, the "highly offended" part of the op was a bit of an exaggeration, and I no longer feel that the qot has a serious issue with men. that being said, the comments quoted are sexist. But, its no longer as big a deal as i considered it. (the bit about loras that someone mentioned was interesting, I think, and helped to explain this)

I also didn't feel before that she was as dismissive of women as she is. But some other quotes provided prove that she is rather harsh with everyone.

I guess im closer to the middle on this issue now.

[Kittykatknits]

Well, this has been an interesting topic, and my opinion has definitely changed some. Looking back, the "highly offended" part of the op was a bit of an exaggeration, and I no longer feel that the qot has a serious issue with men. that being said, the comments quoted are sexist. But, its no longer as big a deal as i considered it. (the bit about loras that someone mentioned was interesting, I think, and helped to explain this)

I also didn't feel before that she was as dismissive of women as she is. But some other quotes provided prove that she is rather harsh with everyone.

I guess im closer to the middle on this issue now.

I had a suspicion you'd say that re: the bolded sentence. Took me awhile to decide completely where I stood.