Is the queen of thorns sexist?

[E-Ro]

Not ignorant,I Just have the realization that there are degrees to everything and half the things said on here are just minor indiscretions rather than full blown offensive sexism.

You said getting pissed at every small thing is the new way of thinking in response to a post about sexism. The sexism shown in this thread, by the qot may be minor, but its worth discussing. I dont think anyone is "getting pissed" over this discussion, is been pretty civil so far.

[Morienthar]

You said getting pissed at every small thing is the new way of thinking in response to a post about sexism. The sexism shown in this thread, by the qot may be minor, but its worth discussing. I dont think anyone is "getting pissed" over this discussion, is been pretty civil so far.

I was replying to most of the people on the thread in general rather than you in particular,Your post about the 60's mindset seemed like a good place to do it.

[Lala]

I agree with E-Ro that this was certainly worth discussing - I definitely enjoyed discussing and amending my views with the other posters. It's also still relevant to the world we live in - after all, aren't men as constrained by gender archetypes as women? Possibly, even more so in today's society.

Young girls are told and encouraged to believe that they can be firemen or President or a soldier if that's what they aspire to, but how often are young boys encouraged to explore careers like fashion design? When a girl says that she wants to be President or a general in the army, she's applauded and told that she is being ambitious - if we objectively think about our responses as a society, would a young boy saying he wants to be the next Alexander McQueen receive the same response from his friends and adult influences?

[Mad Monkey]

I agree with E-Ro that this was certainly worth discussing - I definitely enjoyed discussing and amending my views with the other posters. It's also still relevant to the world we live in - after all, aren't men as constrained by gender archetypes as women? Possibly, even more so in today's society.

Young girls are told and encouraged to believe that they can be firemen or President or a soldier if that's what they aspire to, but how often are young boys encouraged to explore careers like fashion design? When a girl says that she wants to be President or a general in the army, she's applauded and told that she is being ambitious - if we objectively think about our responses as a society, would a young boy saying he wants to be the next Alexander McQueen receive the same response from his friends and adult influences?

I guess that's because masculine roles are viewed as superior to feminine ones to a large extent. If a girl wants to do something that's traditionally masculine, more power to her; it just means that she's tough. If a man tries to do something that's traditionally or stereotypically feminine, that makes him weak at best or potentially perverted at worst (especially if the traditional role that he is looking at involves child-rearing).

In other words, being a tomboy is kind of cool; being a sissy is almost a sin.

[Lala]

I guess that's because masculine roles are viewed as superior to feminine ones to a large extent. If a girl wants to do something that's traditionally masculine, more power to her; it just means that she's tough. If a man tries to do something that's traditionally or stereotypically feminine, that makes him weak at best or potentially perverted at worst (especially if the traditional role that he is looking at involves child-rearing).

In other words, being a tomboy is kind of cool; being a sissy is almost a sin.

Mm yes that's true - there are a lot of stereotypes and issues at play here (and ironically most of my favorite as well as a good number of our most iconic designers are all men). Anyways that was my deep thought for the day~ back to frivolousness and fairy tales and lemon cakes

[The Mother of The Others]

So...fight fire with fire ? The solution to rampant sexism is....more sexism ?

I'm afraid I don't agree with that kind of logic.

She's not waiting for your agreement to come, either, which is the point. It's an adaptive thing so she can be effective in a tilted world by tilting just as far in the other direction mentally, like you would in a game of tug of war in order to not be pulled into the center and rendered ineffective.

Also, the place where they really need these sexism seminars is at the airport. Oh my god. The baggage people behind the scenes are terrorizing the female employees, the stereotype about pilots being dicks and those who work with heavy machinery, it's endemic to the whole industry. Something about how planes are penis shaped, probably.

But are the real trouble areas like that addressed? No. Instead we all get HR leering at us mostly because they're under great pressure to justify their own existence. Taking people down over this stuff allows them to feel like heroes too, like they've joined in with an important social movement. It's very tempting, because their heads are filled with things like, "If I was really taking my job seriously, I'd be pursuing this." And even though this may take a couple generations to get it right, my hope is that people will eventually realize we overcorrected our behavior during this decade. It's the new witchhunt. We're currently indulging anyone who gets offended. People should always have the right to be offended, but they should not always expect redress every time just because something offended them. Only when it makes sense should that happen. Now that we're soldering on an enforced apology in every case, it's being abused and people are throwing around their "I'm offended" act like bouncers in a bar might be seen throwing their muscle around, just because they can, not always because they should be. Eh, we'll strike an equitable balance in the end. Our generation might not be here to see it, but the pendulum tends to swing this way and that, overcorrecting a bit less with each swing, until it winds up in the center, well balanced. At least one can hope. Because it could also swing to the far extreme and hang there for 200 years as women make dudes crawl around on the carpet so they can ride on our backs like My Little Pony rides at the office. It could become one of those things where no one's left to correct it, like when Congress votes itself another raise and then exempts themselves from the new health care program that the rest of us are stuck with. Whatever. Happy Monday!!!

[tormund's beard]

child-rearing is illegal dude :S they aren't horses.

[Maidenpool?]

lol, this is a seriously outdated way of thinking. Its not the 60's anymore.

ETA:also, sexism is about more then being "called names" its about being discriminated against and denied opportunities due to gender.

This isn't an outdated way of thinking. Ignoring other's slander and thus keeping your dignity will always be held in higher regard than letting it get under your skin and choosing to complain.

Sexism in the workplace is still a problem, I acknowledge. However, the realities of business punish sexist actions more effectively than anything else. Let me explain.

Company A - Interviews perfectly qualified woman and under qualified man. Hires the man because the company is sexist.

Company B - Interviews perfectly qualified woman and under qualified man. Hires the woman because she is better qualified.

Extrapolate Company A's decision making process over a few years, and they will find themselves stocked with generally less capable employees than Company B. More importanly, Company A will find themselves out of business, because they chose to never hire the best person for the job. It's perfect justice for sexist behaviour.

That is how sexism dies... it kills itself. So I'm not saying others shouldn't discuss sexism, but for them to keep in mind that there is justice for sexist behaviour, complaint or not.

[Lord Reaver]

Your example only works if the IS a company B, though. If every company follows the line of company A, the woman is out of luck.

Edit: Poor choice word in this thread, I suspect.

[Maidenpool?]

Your example only works if the IS a company B, though. If every company follows the line of company A, the woman is screwed.

There is a Company B, in fact there are countless Company B's.

If you are the head of a company, you report to a board, private and public shareholders, etc. Every single one of them wants the same thing... to grow the value of the company! Stocking your company with the best employees available is a good place to start. And if you can't figure that out, they will be happy to replace you with someone who can!

[Light a wight tonight]

Most of this is too profound for me.

My take is that Olenna sees how wasteful/inefficient the machismo-dominated society is and wants things changed. F'rinstance Loras, who is widely admired for his martial prowess, she dismisses as being good at knocking men off horses with a stick.

The problem is that if she had her way the books might as well have been written by Louisa May Alcott instead of GRRM and would appeal to a vastly different audience.

[Lord Reaver]

There is a Company B, in fact there are countless Company B's.

And has this always been the case ?

[Maidenpool?]

And has this always been the case ?

There are definitely more Company B's now then there were say, 50 or 60 years ago.

[Lord Reaver]

There are definitely more Company B's now then there were say, 50 or 60 years ago.

We're getting somewhere. Now, the real question is: Do you think there would be any company B's at all without movements such as the Suffragettes and other equal right to work efforts in the past ?

[E-Ro]

We're getting somewhere. Now, the real question is: Do you think there would be any company B's at all without movements such as the Suffragettes and other equal right to work efforts in the past ?

I think there would be some, but not nearly as many as there are.

[Maidenpool?]

We're getting somewhere. Now, the real question is: Do you think there would be any company B's at all without movements such as the Suffragettes and other equal right to work efforts in the past ?

I think there would be many Company B's... but as many as we have without the work of women's rights? Probably not.

Keep in mind I did say in my first post that I agnowledge that sexism is still a problem in the workplace, ergo I do recognize it used to be much worse.

[Four-Eyed Crow]

Back to the topic at hand or so help me, I will lock this thread.

Not that I'm a mod. But I'll find a way.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Back to the topic at hand or so help me, I will lock this thread.

Not that I'm a mod. But I'll find a way.

This

[Lala]

This

Okay~

Let's explore why Lady Olenna developed these views and why she is able to freely express them in what is generally a male-dominated society - go~

[Maidenpool?]

Lock the thread, please. I apologize for making it worse.