Is the queen of thorns sexist?

[The Fallen]

Pointing out how socially acceptable mutilating men is(hence all the laughter, and jokes on this thread) is "whining." Pointing out that a fiction book has many instances of rape is valid criticism of a mysogynistic work. Men can't suffer sexism, just stop whining. It's okay for a woman to be sexist, because I can easily reduce all women to victims of sexism, and in our society being a victim gets you special privileges. Men, especially white men, are the cause of the worlds problems, and thus cannot be victims. Even if we are talking about sexually mutilating an infant male who has done nothing to anybody(circumcision), that's okay. I can't even point out how disgusting someone gleefully laughing at a mutilated man is without someone saying "don't get your panties in a bunch".

I say the same thing to women complaining that a comic book cover is sexist, and I am suddenly a sexist. The double standard kills me, and it's made worse by the fact that men shun each other for bringing it up. Men will fight on the behalf of women even against their own interests, hence the takeover of western politics by feminism.

Again, another overreaction.

I've been in threads, like say, about Cersei, where I called out women on their bullshit double-standard. But I don't think women clapping and cheering on a show is something to be up in arms about.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I was exaggerating a bit. To answer the question though, no. If they're only good for reproduction and you castrate them then you remove the only useful bits. Then men become completely useless.

:lol: That was a funny one... see it's possible to have humor about sexism without degrading anyone.... oops... but still we are talking about castration :leaving:

But seriously, I imagine that real sexists have a basic belief that they then go beyond. But there are plenty of sexist who don't go past the women-belong-in-the-kitchen stage, but nevertheless are sexist their entire lives. And not necessarily because they don't possess the power to enact their belief, at the very least in their own domain (be that their home, office, etc...).

I'm operating under the belief that Olenna is not sexist. She makes jokes about men and women. She expresses herself in a blunt and bold way that may make some uncomfortable. But I don't feel an underlying current of hatred towards men coming from her. It's so different from Randyl Tarly.

I think everyone is maybe getting hung up on terms and distinctions and what they imply while not wanting to stigmatize something relatively harmless. I don't feel sexism = ill intent, for me that's misogyny or misandry, sexism can be done with good intentions while still stereotyping women or men as less than. Ned and Catelyn have done this with Sansa and Arya. I don't feel, with what we know at this time, that Olenna, while exhibiting sexism, shows a hatred of men or that she wants to cause men harm, the eunuch comment could be debatable as an instance of misandry for me.

Lastly, I wish there was a ticker that kept track of all the different ways that Olenna's name has been spelled in this thread. (I'm not even sure if I'm spelling it correctly.)

Yes, lol, you are spelling it correctly.

Actually, most of us (myself, Winter's Knight, Eleana) have generally made the point that Lady Olenna's comment is sexist (if you care to look upthread) after doing some soul searching and adjusting our frames of reference.

However, there is an enormous difference between when Lady Olenna makes these "jokes" and when Tyrion does - it's the difference between a small five-year old who has never hit another human being in their life saying "I want to punch you!" vs a large, muscled man with a history of violence saying "I want to punch you!" The aggression and threat behind the statement varies significantly between the two speakers because of their ability to act upon that statement and their past behavior.

I do not excuse Lady Olenna's comments. You should not trivialize the very uncomfortable misogyny exemplified by characters like Tyrion and Tywin.

Agreed! We have already said Olenna's comments are sexist. But a few sexist comments by one should not trivialize or excuse extreme misogyny committed by someone else. I personally feel that Olenna made a sexist comment towards women also but I would not put her in the same category as Randall Tarly. Are they both wrong, yes, but Randall actually commits misogynistic crimes that could be legally punishable in our world where Olenna does not.

Maybe we should just make up a new term or two for the board to make everyone more comfortable with this since the in story sexism and misogyny is so extreme. :dunno:

[Rheagar Prime]

i don't think she is sexist she just knows men's weakness much like genma lannister points out. I mean even aegon showed a little sexist trait but i don't think he is sexist

[Kittykatknits]

Well, this has been an interesting topic, and my opinion has definitely changed some. Looking back, the "highly offended" part of the op was a bit of an exaggeration, and I no longer feel that the qot has a serious issue with men. that being said, the comments quoted are sexist. But, its no longer as big a deal as i considered it. (the bit about loras that someone mentioned was interesting, I think, and helped to explain this)

I also didn't feel before that she was as dismissive of women as she is. But some other quotes provided prove that she is rather harsh with everyone.

I guess im closer to the middle on this issue now.

Thanks for sharing, I thought you might have. It took me a bit to come to an opinion on it, needed to look at several of her comment first.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

[IRON BANK]

The queen of thorns deals with men on a daily basis, and because of her position and social status can deal with them as she pleases with a little more lineancy than most women in westeros society. Reading through her lines of text can be interesting because she can be quite candid on what mistakes her Male counterparts are making with a little feminist twist.

[l3ol3o]

Were the women on 'The Talk' wrong for celebrating? Yes. But I can see why they would react that way. Especially when the topic is divorce, something that usually leaves women in very bad positions. (I wonder how many women end up in the street for every woman who gets a big payday?) So we see them vicariously get a point in the win column through this lady. And I'm not condoning the actions of the crazy lady who committed that atrocious act.

That's why I refer to it as whining. Men shouldn't get their panties in a bunch over 'The Talk'. If you want to get mad at the crazy lady, by all means, do it. But I don't think Sharon Osbourne is public enemy number one.

Wow. Did you even watch that video?

You can see why some women would get giddy at the thought of castrating a man for the terrible crime of filing for divorce? Because women are sometimes left in bad positions after a divorce (as are many men) it's something to be laughed at and called "fabulous"?

"So we see them vicariously get a point in the win column through this lady"

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Is this what it's come to? Are we keeping score now? Is the way to score points to castrate someone? If you were castrated by your wife for wanting a divorce I hardly think you would be calling it a "win" for women.

And people should have every reason to be pissed about this just as they should be if some men called sexually mutilating a woman over a divorce "fabulous" and "hysterical". A crazy lady castrating someone is troubling enough but Osbourne and the rest reactions and thoughts about this are even more troubling.

I completely understand women cheering and being happy when they make progress in regards to gender equality but can hardly be called progress.

[Arcanon]

Probably... She's still freaking awesome though =D... Except in the show, idk why she just sort of irritates me a bit in the show, probably has something to do with how they try to force her into so many scenes and how she got compaired to Tywin Lannister at one point

[Fearsedge]

Again, another overreaction.

I've been in threads, like say, about Cersei, where I called out women on their bullshit double-standard. But I don't think women clapping and cheering on a show is something to be up in arms about.

Well I think it's disgusting and worthy of contempt. It also demonstrates a double standard. If you reverse the genders here, the show would not have seen air. Open misandry is okay, but everyone is on constant misogyny patrol.

It's not some crisis or something in and of itself, but it shows a cultural attitude.

[Winter's Knight]

Again, another overreaction.

I've been in threads, like say, about Cersei, where I called out women on their bullshit double-standard. But I don't think women clapping and cheering on a show is something to be up in arms about.

I think it is. It's foul, disgusting and inexcuseable.

I also remember reading that the woman was severely mentally disturbed with a history as a victim of domestic and sexual violence that included her husband and stretched back to her childhood. (At least I think I did, so take that with a pound of salt)

At any rate, she was sentenced to life, so at least your legal system still works.

[RhaenysBee]

Hai Double Standard, how are you doing?

<_<

I'mmmmmm sorry?!

[E-Ro]

Probably... She's still freaking awesome though =D... Except in the show, idk why she just sort of irritates me a bit in the show, probably has something to do with how they try to force her into so many scenes and how she got compaired to Tywin Lannister at one point

Yeah book olenna is better then show olenna, and they left out allot of her jokes in the show. Anyway, im glad we can all at least agree that her comments were sexist, in the first page or so of the thread it was an uphill struggle to get even that admitted.

And about this castration in real life case, I hadn't even heard about that until this thread, gross.

[The Mother of The Others]

I read it as her having the necessary amount of counter-sexism to balance out all the incoming sexism from her world. That's how she's able to function so well, because she accounts for all that sexism and her reaction to it evens things out. Like any weightlifter using gym equipment she added counterweights to one side until it matched up with the existing weights on the other side so she was able to get a balanced workout and win the race, so to speak.

[Maidenpool?]

Sexism, feminism, reverse-feminism, double standard, single standard, whatever standard, who cares.

People who get offended and thrown off by being called names deserve nothing but contempt.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me."

I believe everyone learnt that when they were 5 - It's time to grow up and remember it again.

[E-Ro]

Sexism, feminism, reverse-femenism, double standard, single standard, whatever standard, who cares.

People who get offended and thrown off by being called names deserve nothing but contempt.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me."

I believe everyone learnt that when they were 5 - It's time to grow up and remember it again.

lol, this is a seriously outdated way of thinking. Its not the 60's anymore.

ETA:also, sexism is about more then being "called names" its about being discriminated against and denied opportunities due to gender.

[Morienthar]

lol, this is a seriously outdated way of thinking. Its not the 60's anymore..

So what being pissed at every small thing is the new way of thinking??

Then I don't want any part of that nonsense.

[Four-Eyed Crow]

Who cares? A.) Sexism against men is cool, and B.) Old ladies get a pass on this sort of thing.

[Lord Reaver]

I read it as her having the necessary amount of counter-sexism to balance out all the incoming sexism from her world. That's how she's able to function so well, because she accounts for all that sexism and her reaction to it evens things out. Like any weightlifter using gym equipment she added counterweights to one side until it matched up with the existing weights on the other side so she was able to get a balanced workout and win the race, so to speak.

So...fight fire with fire ? The solution to rampant sexism is....more sexism ?

I'm afraid I don't agree with that kind of logic.

[E-Ro]

So what being pissed at every small thing is the new way of thinking??

Then I don't want any part of that nonsense.

No, sexism isnt a small thing, by any means. Anyway, im sure someone who knows more on this subject then me will be along to explain this to you, im not as ignorant on the subject as you seem to be, but neither am i an expert.

So...fight fire with fire ? The solution to rampant sexism is....more sexism ?

I'm afraid I don't agree with that kind of logic.

I dont think that post was entirely serious.

[Morienthar]

No, sexism isnt a small thing, by any means. Anyway, im sure someone who knows more on this subject then me will be along to explain this to you, im not as ignorant on the subject as you seem to be, but neither am i an expert.

Not ignorant,I Just have the realization that there are degrees to everything and half the things said on here are just minor indiscretions rather than full blown offensive sexism.

[Renie]

Does the QOT make sexist remarks, yes she does. Is she sexist? I don't think we know enough about her to know for sure.

Overall sexism is alive and thriving. You hear it every day. Men are sexist and women, but of course they are, by a loose definition of sexist. Men tell women jokes, women tell men jokes.

Personally, my favorite characters are not based on their gender. They are based on their story. I like the moral grayness of Jamie, Tyrion, Arya and Dany. I like seeing their characters develop, even if they don't develop in a way that I consider positive.

I dislike self righteousness, and hypocracy, like Stannis and Cersei. Cersei especially as she bemoans that she isn't considered as good as a man, but then she over and over agains uses her sex as a play for power, uses her female parts and her beauty to get what she wants. And I don't understand why a modern day women would like the character of Cersei.