Strength of the Northern Houses

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well that's one take.

The other is that there's a reason why Howland Reed was at the ToJ. He wasn't Ned's squire. He was likely leading some troops from the Neck.

And the cutoff line at offensive troops is a bit unusual. Do you discount the garrisons left behind by other lords?

Maester Luwin told Bran that Robb's host would be joined on the march South by crannogmen from the Neck. So at least some of them marched South with Robb. As an offensive force.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Maester Luwin told Bran that Robb's host would be joined on the march South by crannogmen from the Neck. So at least some of them marched South with Robb. As an offensive force.

I don't think he said that.

Crannogmen are never mentioned to be in either of Robb's armies, he sends word to Greywater to inform Howland to guard the causeway, but never asks for troops.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Well that's one take.

The other is that there's a reason why Howland Reed was at the ToJ. He wasn't Ned's squire. He was likely leading some troops from the Neck.

And the cutoff line at offensive troops is a bit unusual. Do you discount the garrisons left behind by other lords?

In this case I believe it is justified, the Crannogmen simply aren't soldiers in the way that other westerosi are, and if they are I see no evidence of this. The garrison are simply the troops holding castles and policing land, they are no different from other soldiers, except that they would generally be of a slightly lower quality. The Crannogmen have spears, nets and (presumably) low poundage bows, they rely on poisons and stealth and simply would not be any good outside of the neck. Think of them like the mountain clans of the Vale, except they owe fealty to the Starks.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Looks like the map you are looking at is smaller than the one I'm looking at. Maybe they shrunk the North in the Lands of Ice and Fire, because in the maps from the books, Winterfell is around 500 miles South of the Wall, and around 700 miles North of Greywater Watch. Giving the North a "height" of around 1200 miles. Similarly, it is about 1000 miles from the Stony Shore to the coast north of Widow's Watch. Obviously it is not a square, with many gaps, bays and indentations.

I believe the pixel analysis gave the North 38% of the surface area of the entire Westeros. So with Westeros averaging 3000 miles high and 900 miles wide, that is an area of 1026 000 square miles for the North.

But that includes the Gift, which is 45000 square miles, bringing the North proper to about 980 000 square miles. But I'm not sure if that includes Skagos and Bear Island.

In any case, if the North takes back the New Gift - which they apparently gave away with great reluctance after being forced to do so by Jahaerys 100 years ago, and you therefore count the North as it existed for 7900 years of its 8000 year existence, half of the Gift should be added back to the North, giving it 1 003 500 square miles, even if Skagos and Bear Island are already included in the 38% figure.

I checked the map in the actual books and your figures seem to work, with the gift-the bite measuring 1,000 miles. Strange that the wall is comparatively larger in Lands of Ice and Fire map, where the same distance is over 200 miles less.

38% is correct I think, Elio has several times referenced that it is "just over 1/3rd" of westeros.

The New "Gift" was 200 years ago. Though I wonder if any of what we heard from Yandel on the topic is biased to stop any Targaryen king seeming too perfect.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I don't think he said that.

Crannogmen are never mentioned to be in either of Robb's armies, he sends word to Greywater to inform Howland to guard the causeway, but never asks for troops.

Luwin does say that. Bran asks how many men Robb will have and Luwin tells him that there is 12k at Winterfell but not to worry as others such as Barrow knights and Crannogmen will join him on the way South.

However, I don't think any actually joined up as Robb tells Cat

I've sent word to Howland Reed, Father's old friend at Greywater Watch. If the Lannisters come up the Neck, the crannogmen will bleed them every step of the way

I think Luwin made the statement before the battle of the Golden Tooth (or before news reached Winterfell) and before they knew there were major battles happening in the Riverlands.

Once things had escalated Robb probably decided to leave the Crannogmen in the Neck.

[Shpati]

Reading of this thread..... So what's the estimate left on House Stark's men? Surely they all didn't die, so are they just scattered all over the place?