Strength of the Northern Houses

[Free Northman Reborn]

A Turgon moment of awesomness is coming ;). At the end of WOW we get 10,000 badass Skagosi semi-cannibal warriors...

It won't be 10,000. There is no way Skagos alone will have more warriors than the entire Wildling nation, for example.

I suspect between 3000-5000. But that is still a sizeable force.

Then again, if, as I suspect, the Skagosi reason for mobilizing will be because once Winter arrives, Skagos will be joined to the Lands Beyond the Wall by pack ice, and therefore vulnerable to the Others, then their entire nation may end up migrating South, in which case you are talking about a hundred thousand people or more. Then it may well be a mobilization of every man of fighting age, rather than just the normal 1 or 2% of the population.

In which case 10,000 might well become a possibility.

[Arakan]

It won't be 10,000. There is no way Skagos alone will have more warriors than the entire Wildling nation, for example.

I suspect between 3000-5000. But that is still a sizeable force.

Then again, if, as I suspect, the Skagosi reason for mobilizing will be because once Winter arrives, Skagos will be joined to the Lands Beyond the Wall by pack ice, and therefore vulnerable to the others, then their entire nation may end up migrating South, in which case you are talking about a hundred thousand people or more. Then it may well be a mobilization of every man of fighting age, rather than just the normal 1 or 2% of the population.

In which case 10,000 might well become a possibility.

FNR, that was a hommage and not serious ;).

[Free Northman Reborn]

FNR, that was a hommage and not serious ;).

OK. Sorry. I don't know who or what Turgon is, so my apologies.

EDIT

Ah, I just googled it. So it's some elf from Lord of the Rings. Ok. Cool.

[Ingelheim]

I don't know if we are talking of Turgon from the Silmarillion, when he showed up with 10,000 warriors from Gondolin in the Nirnaeth

Or maybe I'm just too nerd.

[Arakan]

OK. Sorry. I don't know who or what Turgon is, so my apologies.

EDIT

Ah, I just googled it. So it's some elf from Lord of the Rings. Ok. Cool.

Hehehe no problem ;).

Turgon is the Noldor King of Gondolin, a secret city, hiding for decades and just turning up in the right moment out of nowhere with 10,000 badass warriors to kick some ass ;).

[Arakan]

I don't know if we are talking of Turgon from the Silmarillion, when he showed up with 10,000 warriors from Gondolin in the Nirnaeth

Or maybe I'm just too nerd.

Yep :)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It won't be 10,000. There is no way Skagos alone will have more warriors than the entire Wildling nation, for example.

Actually, I estimate Skagos at 10,000. Three Skagosi Houses, on an average of 3,000 for non-petty Lords... :cheers:

Hehehe no problem ;).

Turgon is the Noldor King of Gondolin, a secret city, hiding for decades and just turning up in the right moment out of nowhere with 10,000 badass warriors to kick some ass ;).

...and losing. The actual badasses in the Nirnaeth were Hurin and Huor :bowdown:

[Free Northman Reborn]

Actually, I estimate Skagos at 10,000. Three Skagosi Houses, on an average of 3,000 for non-petty Lords... :cheers:

...and losing. The actual badasses in the Nirnaeth were Hurin and Huor :bowdown:

Well, their territory is kind of similar in size to that of the Karstarks or Umbers, and even further North. That said, they do have the whole "island" advantage, which apparently allows the Ironborn to raise far more warriors per population size than anyone else can.

So while I put them roughly similar to the Karstarks, maybe they can indeed raise more, thanks to fishing or something.

[John Doe]

Actually, I estimate Skagos at 10,000. Three Skagosi Houses, on an average of 3,000 for non-petty Lords... :cheers:

I doubt that they have nearly that many men.

[Arakan]

...and losing. The actual badasses in the Nirnaeth were Hurin and Huor :bowdown:

Can we agree to consider Hurin as the biggest badass the fantasy world has ever seen ;)?

[John Doe]

That said, they do have the whole "island" advantage, which apparently allows the Ironborn to raise far more warriors per population size than anyone else can.

I think the difference is not that the Ironborn live on Islands, but that most of the freeborn are ready to go to war, in contrast to the other kingdoms where the lords rely mostly on feudalism.

[Arakan]

Actually, I estimate Skagos at 10,000. Three Skagosi Houses, on an average of 3,000 for non-petty Lords... :cheers:

Well it all depends on the climate but considering that Skagos makes up roughly 50,000 sqkm (albeit mountainous) and with a conservative 4-5 inhabitants /sqkm, that would make 200-250k inhabitants (conservative scenario).

Taking their pressumably "tribal" culture into account (at least compared to mainland Westeros), I dont see it that outlandish to assume an overall potential of 10,000 warriors.

I see the problem rather in their equipment which should be (in average) rather sub-optimal. We'll shall see.

[Lord Reaver]

...and losing. The actual badasses in the Nirnaeth were Hurin and Huor :bowdown:

Well, considering Huor was captured, I find it hard to see how he did anything but lose, either.

The "battle of countless tears" has that name for a reason, after all.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well it all depends on the climate but considering that Skagos makes up roughly 50,000 sqkm (albeit mountainous) and with a conservative 4-5 inhabitants /sqkm, that would make 200-250k inhabitants (conservative scenario).

Taking their pressumably "tribal" culture into account (at least compared to mainland Westeros), I dont see it that outlandish to assume an overall potential of 10,000 warriors.

I see the problem rather in their equipment which should be (in average) rather sub-optimal. We'll shall see.

Well, they should have a roughly similar tribal structure to the Mountain Clans of the Northwest. Maybe just a bit more bloodthirsty.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I think the difference is not that the Ironborn live on Islands, but that most of the freeborn are ready to go to war, in contrast to the other kingdoms where the lords rely mostly on feudalism.

Nope, it's economy. Fishing and such can take the absence of men in stride. For farmers, that means ruined fields, failed harvests and at least two years of starvation.

[Arakan]

Well, they should have a roughly similar tribal structure to the Mountain Clans of the Northwest. Maybe just a bit more bloodthirsty.

On a side note: I always considered their "cannibalistic" nature more as propaganda tool a la "stay the fuck away from our island", at least in the "now".

Any opinions on that?

[Free Northman Reborn]

On a side note: I always considered their "cannibalistic" nature more as propaganda tool a la "stay the fuck away from our island", at least in the "now".

Any opinions on that?

I am quite open to the idea of them having resorted to cannibalism during particularly brutal winters in the past. Or maybe they even have some kind of ritual cannibalism under rare ocassions - no different to the Children who apparently see human meat as quite edible if the need arises.

But I don't see them as practicing regular cannibalism on a day to day basis.

[WarLord]

GRRMs big mistake was that he made the military strength of Westeros too less.

I mean back in even 250-300BC an Indian Emperor had an army consisting of 600,000 infantry, 130,000 cavalry and 9000 war elephants.

Or the Romans had 400,000 men in 120AD + 200,000-250,000 reserves.

[Ingelheim]

GRRMs big mistake was that he made the military strength of Westeros too less.

I mean back in even 250-300BC an Indian Emperor had an army consisting of 600,000 infantry, 130,000 cavalry and 9000 war elephants.

Or the Romans had 400,000 men in 120AD + 200,000-250,000 reserves.

And, as I said to you in the other post, The Seven Kingdoms could raise 400,000 men if needed.

Also, the 730,000 army you mention is quite wrong.

[Arakan]

GRRMs big mistake was that he made the military strength of Westeros too less.

I mean back in even 250-300BC an Indian Emperor had an army consisting of 600,000 infantry, 130,000 cavalry and 9000 war elephants

Absolutely and Xerxes invaded Greece with 2.5 million soldiers, not to mention ~2 million support personnel :).