Strength of the Northern Houses

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Well that makes Winterfell idiots for not having properly trained soldiers.

Roose sent at least as many men South as Winterfell did. And he is even farther removed from the Ironborn threat than Winterfell is. Plus his stronghold is not the capital of an entire kingdom that is at war.

All reasons why you are carrying the idiot ball if you don't leave Winterfell with at least as strong a garrison as Roose left at the Dreadforte

I think Winterfell lost more men that the Dreadfort did. Ned took many of the Household Guard South with him.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The problem was clearly quantity - or do you truly think that if WF had 100 guards(even if they were new recruits) it would still have fallen??

Theon did not use some hidden,secret passage into WF - he was not noticed because WF barely had 15-20 men and probably 6-10 of them were on guard - clearly not enough to man the entire wall.

Sure. Rodrick could have ignored the trouble Torrhens Square was having and just let it fall like Deepwood Motte and Moat Cailin had. It is easier to do while the Ironborn are still outside rather then wait till they have taken the settlement.

[Dimples]

All reasons why you are carrying the idiot ball if you don't leave Winterfell with at least as strong a garrison as Roose left at the Dreadforte

In addition, a strong castle like Winterfell or the Dreadfort (presumably) would only need a fraction of the 600 Roose left behind to be properly defended.

He can't be using the same men, Ramsay and the Boltons killed them all.

It's mentioned that Stannis' host is joined by some survivors from that force. Also, it would pretty hard for the Boltons to cut down every single one. In most battles a good amount of the defeated forces manage to escape, and in this case the Wolfswood (a good place to escape pursuit) was nearby.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

In addition, a strong castle like Winterfell or the Dreadfort (presumably) would only need a fraction of the 600 Roose left behind to be properly defended.

That is probably what Rodrick thought as well. That the Guards he left was enough for the short time he was away.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think Winterfell lost more men that the Dreadfort did. Ned took many of the Household Guard South with him.

Hang on, this has suddenly awakened another question for me, addressing. the issue of the strength of Northern houses.

Are you guys saying Roose's 600 strong garrison were all mounted?

If so, what is his total mounted numbers then? Because you would then have to add the cavalry he took south with Robb.

That would mean that his total cavalry must be at least in the 1000 range, if not higher.

And that is still virtually completely intact. And Manderly still has more than that. Despite his losses.

So that means Manderly's full potential must be in the region of 1500 heavy horse at least. Meaning he has kept back the vast majority of his forces to date.

[Dimples]

That is probably what Rodrick thought as well. That the Guards he left was enough for the short time he was away.

And that shows he has bad judgement. The skeleton garrison he left obviously wasn't large enough to take advantage of Winterfell's defenses, as Theon's men went totally unnoticed in the long time they took to get through the castle. Leaving 30 more men at Winterfell to guard the heirs to the North (a pretty important job) would've drastically reduced Theon's chance of success, while taking them to Torrhen's Square would've had virtually no impact, as Rodrik already had an overwhelming numerical advantage against Dagmer.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Hang on, this has suddenly awakened another question for me, addressing. the issue of the strength of Northern houses.

Are you guys saying Roose's 600 strong garrison were all mounted?

If so, what is his total mounted numbers then? Because you would then have to add the cavalry he took south with Robb.

That would mean that his total cavalry must be at least in the 1000 range, if not higher.

And that is still virtually completely intact. And Manderly still has more than that. Despite his losses.

So that means Manderly's full potential must be in the region of 1500 heavy horse at least. Meaning he has kept back the vast majority of his forces to date.

Wow! Is this how you make all your calculations on the Norths strength? It would certainly explain the exaggerated numbers.

Nowhere does it state that the 600 with Ramsay were all mounted, nor are we given how many mounted men Roose had taken South. But you have some how jumped to the conclusion that they must have at least a 1,000.

"There's still time. Raise a peace banner - "

"They're fighting," Kromm said urgently. "More men came up, hundreds of them, and at first they made to join the others. But now they've fallen on them!"

"Is it Asha?" Had she come to save him after all?

But Kromm gave a shake of his head. "No. These are northmen, I tell you. With a bloody man on their banner."

The flayed man of the Dreadfort. Reek had belonged to the Bastard of Bolton before his capture, Theon recalled. It was hard to believe that a vile creature like him could sway the Boltons to change their allegiance, but nothing else made sense. "I'll see this for myself," Theon said.

Maester Luwin trailed after him. By the time they reached the battlements, dead men and dying horses were strewn about the market square outside the gates. He saw no battle lines, only a swirling chaos of banners and blades. Shouts and screams rang through the cold autumn air. Ser Rodrik seemed to have the numbers, but the Dreadfort men were better led, and had taken the others unawares. Theon watched them charge and wheel and charge again, chopping the larger force to bloody pieces every time they tried to form up between the houses. He could hear the crash of iron axeheads on oaken shields over the terrified trumpeting of a maimed horse. The inn was burning, he saw.

There were Bolton men mounted at the battle, just like there were mounted men with Rodrick. It may well be that all 600 were mounted, but we have seen nothing in the text stating that.

[Siddard Stark]

Well Ned only took 50 men from his household guard south to Kingslanding, I don't knw where everyone is getting the 300 men figure from. When Ned was in Winterfell he had a garrison of 200 men of which he took 1/4 with him to Kings Landing.

Secondly the 653 men Ramsey brought with him to Winterfell were not Bolton reserves, they were remnants of Roose's garrison at the Dreadfort or most of them were. Roose was smart enough to leave a strong and well-trained garrison to protect his lands.

Ser Rodrik was not thinking about contingencies when he took most of the Winterfell garrison with him to fight the Ironborn.

There was a weakness in the Northern powerbase as most of the Lords and their heirs were south fighting with the Lannisters. The only major Lord left North was Wyman Manderly and he can't lead men as he cannot go in the field to command them.

People bashing Wyman for not doing enough need to remember, Wyman had his orders from both Ned and Robb to defend and strengthen White Harbors defenses, he accomplished that by strengthening the defenses and building a Northern fleet. He also managed to send 1500 men with Robb and an additional force to Ser Rodrik Cassel. He also managed to take control of Hornwood castle and its lands. So his forces were dispersed in four to five different groupings:

1) Defense of his city-------aka Strong City Watch.

2) Men holding the Hornwood lands.

3) Men trainnig to become sailors.

4) Men sent to Ser Rodirk to fight the Ironborn

5) 1500 men gone south with his sons.

After the Red Wedding he is actively raising and training a host at White Harbor, men who survived the battle of Winterfell, Hornwood men and men from his city and surrounding Stark Loyalist.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Well Ned only took 50 men from his household guard south to Kingslanding, I don't knw where everyone is getting the 300 men figure from.

That was my mistake. I put IIRC next to it as I was not sure myself. I think it must have been slightly more than 50 as 2 are killed by Jaime and his guards, 20 are sent with Beric and after that he commands Tomard to take 20 men and to escort Sansa and Arya to Winterfell via Dragonstone. Surely he planned on keeping more than 7 men with him?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Wow! Is this how you make all your calculations on the Norths strength? It would certainly explain the exaggerated numbers.

Nowhere does it state that the 600 with Ramsay were all mounted, nor are we given how many mounted men Roose had taken South. But you have some how jumped to the conclusion that they must have at least a 1,000.

There were Bolton men mounted at the battle, just like there were mounted men with Rodrick. It may well be that all 600 were mounted, but we have seen nothing in the text stating that.

I wasn't claiming that. I was responding to the claim made in this thread that they were all mounted. That's why I was asking the question.

If all 600 were mounted, that would put Roose's cavalry figures incredibly high, considering that the bulk of his cavalry were no doubt in the South with his main army. Hence my question.

EDIT

I never previously recalled any reference to them being mounted or otherwise, but from the description in that passage you quoted, it would indeed appear that the ones Theon were observing were mounted.

He talks about them charging, wheeling and charging again. That implies horsemen. Which has quite interesting implications, as I'm sure you will be aware.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I wasn't claiming that. I was responding to the claim made in this thread that they were all mounted. That's why I was asking the question.

If all 600 were mounted, that would put Roose's cavalry figures incredibly high, considering that the bulk of his cavalry were no doubt in the South with his main army. Hence my question.

Maybe they were.

I'm reading the wiki which states "A helmeted Ramsay Snow brings men from the Dreadfort and leads them to the Stark army. Believing the Dreadfort men to be reinforcements, Rodrik offers his hand in greeting to their leader. However, Ramsay takes Rodrik's arm off at the elbow and reveals his identity. The Bolton force under Ramsay attacks the Stark army in the night."

I can't seem to find the bolded part in Theons chapter as he's watching the events unfold. Has the wiki made that part up or has GRRM given more information on the battle?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Maybe they were.

I'm reading the wiki which states "A helmeted Ramsay Snow brings men from the Dreadfort and leads them to the Stark army. Believing the Dreadfort men to be reinforcements, Rodrik offers his hand in greeting to their leader. However, Ramsay takes Rodrik's arm off at the elbow and reveals his identity. The Bolton force under Ramsay attacks the Stark army in the night."

I can't seem to find the bolded part in Theons chapter as he's watching the events unfold. Has the wiki made that part up or has GRRM given more information on the battle?

As I added in the EDIT of my previous post, in the passage you quote, Theon describes Ramsay's forces charging, wheeling and charging again. Which can only be referring to cavalry.

Also, given the speed at which Ramsay had to get the men from the Dreadfort to Winterfell, it would imply that horsemen would have outdistanced any infantry during the long overland journey, surely. If Ramsay arrived even one day later, Rodrik would have been inside Winterfell and all would have been for nought.

Again reinforcing the idea that it was a force of cavalry that he arrived with.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Also, given the speed at which Ramsay had to get the men from the Dreadfort to Winterfell, it would imply that horsemen would have outdistanced

There were also men there from White Harbor and Widows Watch. If the time to get there, then so could the Bolton men.

[Free Northman Reborn]

There were also men there from White Harbor and Widows Watch. If the time to get there, then so could the Bolton men.

Ah, but they were called by raven, whereas, if I recall correctly, Ramsay simply left with a bag of Stark silver and had to travel all the way to the Dreadfort first, before gathering his father's garrison and riding all the way back again.

Secondly, the forces from White Harbor can move much faster by travelling up the White Knife via riverboats for much of the distance, avoiding any rough terrain and cutting down the journey time significantly.

Irrespective of all of the above, given that Ramsay had no idea how far Ser Rodrik's forces were from Winterfell at any given time, he could not afford to waste any time. Meaning that if he could get there in half the time by racing ahead with his cavalry, then he would surely do so.

The fact that he only got there in the nick of time proves that he travelled as fast as he possibly could This also ties in with Theon's description of the battle, which is clearly referring to mounted charges from Ramsay's forces.

[Barty]

Sure. Rodrick could have ignored the trouble Torrhens Square was having and just let it fall like Deepwood Motte and Moat Cailin had. It is easier to do while the Ironborn are still outside rather then wait till they have taken the settlement.

Torrhen's square was in no danger - It was too strong to be taken by Dagmer(Until Rodrik left that too with no garrison)

Leaving castles undefended is what Rodrik does best - leave WF undefended so that the IB take it from behind him and then wheel around and take the garrison of Torrhen's square with him so that the IB then take TS from behind him.

The guy didnt even learn from his mistakes.

He could have left a hundred men at WF and gone on to TS with 800 instead of 900 - the result wouldnt have changed, Dagmer barely had 300 men. But those 100, even if half trained, could have defended WF against an army

[Game Of Thrones]

He can't be using the same men, Ramsay and the Boltons killed them all.

There were survivors, who joined Stannis when he took Deepwood Motte. Stannis himself mentions it in his letter to Jon.

[Barty]

He can't be using the same men, Ramsay and the Boltons killed them all.

no he didnt

"more northmen coming in as word spreads of our victory. Fisherfolk, freeriders, hillmen, crofters from the deep of the wolfswood and villagers who fled their homes along the stony shore to escape the ironmen, survivors from the battle outside the gates of Winterfell, men once sworn to the Hornwoods, the Cerwyns, and the Tallharts. We are five thousand strong as I write, our numbers swelling every day."

I believe even GRRM confirmed that most of the men were scattered by Ramsay and not hunted down and killed.

[The Fallen]

From the time that Robb left Winterfell to the time Theon takes it was more than enough time to train guards.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Maybe they were.

I'm reading the wiki which states "A helmeted Ramsay Snow brings men from the Dreadfort and leads them to the Stark army. Believing the Dreadfort men to be reinforcements, Rodrik offers his hand in greeting to their leader. However, Ramsay takes Rodrik's arm off at the elbow and reveals his identity. The Bolton force under Ramsay attacks the Stark army in the night."

I can't seem to find the bolded part in Theons chapter as he's watching the events unfold. Has the wiki made that part up or has GRRM given more information on the battle?

Between Theon watching the battle and this particular description, it would seem like the most, if not all, of the men were mounted.

As the night grew darker and the smoke spread it was harder to make out what was happening below, but the din of steel gradually diminished to nothing, and the shouts and warhorns gave way to moans and piteous wailing. Finally a column of mounted men rode out of the drifting smoke. At their head was a knight in dark armor. His rounded helm gleamed a sullen red, and a pale pink cloak streamed from his shoulders. Outside the main gate he reined up, and one of his men shouted for the castle to open.

“Are you friend or foe?” Black Lorren bellowed down.

“Would a foe bring such fine gifts?” Red Helm waved a hand, and three corpses were dumped in front of the gates. A torch was waved above the bodies, so the defenders upon the walls might see the faces of the dead.

“The old castellan,” said Black Lorren.

“With Leobald Tallhart and Cley Cerwyn.” The boy lord had taken an arrow in the eye, and Ser Rodrik had lost his left arm at the elbow. Maester Luwin gave a wordless cry of dismay, turned away from the battlements, and fell to his knees sick.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Hang on, this has suddenly awakened another question for me, addressing. the issue of the strength of Northern houses.

Are you guys saying Roose's 600 strong garrison were all mounted?

If so, what is his total mounted numbers then? Because you would then have to add the cavalry he took south with Robb.

That would mean that his total cavalry must be at least in the 1000 range, if not higher.

And that is still virtually completely intact. And Manderly still has more than that. Despite his losses.

So that means Manderly's full potential must be in the region of 1500 heavy horse at least. Meaning he has kept back the vast majority of his forces to date.

Manderly is talking specifically about heavy horse though, not cavalry in general. Heavy cavalry probably makes up less than half of your average mounted force.