Strength of the Northern Houses

[The Fallen]

Since Theon attacked with 30 himself and Winterfell is a castle... hell yes.

Whoa! Down boy.

I don't know if little dragon is defending Rodrik or just throwing Robb under the bus one more time.

There were enough men in the North that Rodrik didn't have to take all of the men at Winterfell.

I try not to call it an idiot ball moment by saying that Rodrik could nit have anticipated a ironborn attack on Winterfell. But it had nothing to do with Robb.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Since Theon attacked with 30 himself and Winterfell is a castle... hell yes.

Cassel did leave guards, they were killed as Theon and the Ironborn swam the moat and climbed the gate. It was a sneak attack. Once inside the people of Winterfell surrendered, its not a matter of killing 60 guards but getting to either of the Stark children.

Not all 600 were directly from Winterfell but from the surrounding Holdfasts. It is likely as well that many of these men would not be professional soldiers, just like the majority of the men left at Winterfell were not.

[Dimples]

Cassel did leave guards, they were killed as Theon and the Ironborn swam the moat and climbed the gate. It was a sneak attack. Once inside the people of Winterfell surrendered, its not a matter of killing 60 guards but getting to either of the Stark children.

Cassel didn't leave enough guards. If he had left enough to properly man a large castle like Winterfell, they would've detected the Ironborn and been able to prevent Theon from sneaking through an entire castle undetected, which is how he got to the Stark kids in the first place.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Let's try and make a real world comparison.

So a bunch of Vikings land in France, while the Western Europeans are away making war on Russia on the Eastern Front. And then about 15 of them ride overland all the way across France and take the capital of Germany, which happens to be guarded by only 20 men or so.

Yeah. Real realistic. But I suppose it's time for someone to remind us that this story also has a 700 foot Wall, dragons and giants in it. So Winterfell was conquered by 17 Ironborn because magic.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Cassel didn't leave enough guards. If he had left enough to properly man a large castle like Winterfell, they would've detected the Ironborn and been able to prevent Theon from sneaking through an entire castle undetected, which is how he got to the Stark kids in the first place.

Spot on.

Theon had to spent hours crossing the two walls. All the while nobody noticed the climbers. Because nobody was there anymore. Otherwise Theon and all his men would be dead or prisoners.

[Arakan]

Whoa! Down boy.

I don't know if little dragon is defending Rodrik or just throwing Robb under the bus one more time.

There were enough men in the North that Rodrik didn't have to take all of the men at Winterfell.

I try not to call it an idiot ball moment by saying that Rodrik could nit have anticipated a ironborn attack on Winterfell. But it had nothing to do with Robb.

Let's put it this way...at least it was quite unreasonable and one might expect that such a seasoned and experienced soldier like Ser Rodrik wouldnt take such unnecessary risks ;).

[Dimples]

Let's put it this way...at least it was quite unreasonable and one might expect that such a seasoned and experienced soldier like Ser Rodrik wouldnt take such unnecessary risks ;).

:agree:

[Arakan]

Let's try and make a real world comparison.

So a bunch of Vikings land in France, while the Western Europeans are away making war on Russia on the Eastern Front. And then about 15 of them ride overland all the way across France and take the capital of Germany, which happens to be guarded by only 20 men or so.

Yeah. Real realistic. But I suppose it's time for someone to remind us that this story also has a 700 foot Wall, dragons and giants in it. So Winterfell was conquered by 17 Ironborn because magic.

Hahaha dont destroy the MAGIC of suspension of disbelief ;)

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I don't know if little dragon is defending Rodrik or just throwing Robb under the bus one more time.

There were enough men in the North that Rodrik didn't have to take all of the men at Winterfell.

I'm just pointing out the double standards. Why is Rodrik called an idiot for doing the exact same thing Robb did, just on a smaller scale.

How many properly trained men were actually left at Winterell after both Ned and Robb had taken men South with them?

Not enough to defend itself from a large-scale unexpected betrayal?

How is the Ironborn attacking a betrayal? They are historically enemies with nothing in the recent past to show that they are friendly. Theon had been a hostage for the last decade. The Ironborn people owe the North nothing.

The point I was making with the 2,000 is that Rodrik, once again, took too many troops to deal with tiny numbers of enemies. He took so many that Torrhen's Square, a castle and therefore strong defensive point, couldn't defend itself against Dagmer's defeated reavers, who likely numbered well under 100. Had Rodrik left even 1/20th of his 2,000 at Torrhen's Square, they would've beaten back Dagmer easily. With 1,900 against 30 Rodrik would still have a ridiculously overwhelming advantage.

Rodrik was heading to Torrhens Square to help them.

He didnt have 2,000. He had 600 from Winterfell and the surrounding Holdfasts. Torrhens Square had 300, but were not enough to deal with the Ironborn. The 2,000 figure you are thinking of is from the Battle of Winterfell when the 900 combined men were joined by men from Manderly, Karstark, Tallheart, Hornwood and Flint. Most likely due to ditance were not an option at Tprrhens Square.

Robb took 20k, which may not have been enough, considering Tywin and Jaime had 35k in the Riverlands already. Also, as evidenced by Rodrik's 2k (which was raised in a very short amount of time), as well as the thousands of other Northern troops we see later, Robb left the North with plenty of manpower. Cassel, on the other hand, took too many men, leaving his home exposed, even though it was totally unnecessary. Cassel could've easily spared 60 men (for example) to defend Winterfell, where they would've beat Theon handily and prove themselves useful. Instead he chooses to take those 60 with him to smash Dagmer, where they would make no difference, as Cassel already had a ludicrous numerical advantage.

When do we see thousands of other Northern troops?

Cassel left troops at Winterfell. Albelly and several other guards were killed in the sneak attack.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Let's try and make a real world comparison.

So a bunch of Vikings land in France, while the Western Europeans are away making war on Russia on the Eastern Front. And then about 15 of them ride overland all the way across France and take the capital of Germany, which happens to be guarded by only 20 men or so.

Yeah. Real realistic. But I suppose it's time for someone to remind us that this story also has a 700 foot Wall, dragons and giants in it. So Winterfell was conquered by 17 Ironborn because magic.

Does this not work both ways? How is this different to when Robbs magical animal finds a path unknown to the local population and finds 10k soldiers all fast asleep after one to many hot chocolates.

If poor writing benefits the Starks then it's further proof of how great they are if it benefits their enemies, then Stark fans throw their toys out the pram and whine about how unfair the plot is.

[Dimples]

I'm just pointing out the double standards. Why is Rodrik called an idiot for doing the exact same thing Robb did, just on a smaller scale.

How many properly trained men were actually left at Winterell after both Ned and Robb had taken men South with them?

How is the Ironborn attacking a betrayal? They are historically enemies with nothing in the recent past to show that they are friendly. Theon had been a hostage for the last decade. The Ironborn people owe the North nothing. I assumed you were talking about Ramsay's betrayal, because the North did have enough men and leaders to deal with the Ironborn.

Rodrik was heading to Torrhens Square to help them.

He didnt have 2,000. He had 600 from Winterfell and the surrounding Holdfasts. Torrhens Square had 300, but were not enough to deal with the Ironborn. The 2,000 figure you are thinking of is from the Battle of Winterfell when the 900 combined men were joined by men from Manderly, Karstark, Tallheart, Hornwood and Flint. Most likely due to ditance were not an option at Tprrhens Square. Torrhen's Square had 300? Where did you get that number? How did Dagmer's <100 Ironborn sack it later? And even if Rodrik only had his 900 after dealing with Dagmer, he still could've left a very small fraction at Torrhen's Square, instead of leaving it with a skeleton garrison (which is why Dagmer was able to take it later). My point still stands.

When do we see thousands of other Northern troops? Have you read ADWD?

Cassel left troops at Winterfell. Albelly and several other guards were killed in the sneak attack. Yes he did leave a few troops. I'm not arguing about that. It's that hee didn't leave enough to properly garrison Winterfell, which is why the sneak attack succeeded without a hitch.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

He didnt have 2,000. He had 600 from Winterfell and the surrounding Holdfasts. Torrhens Square had 300, but were not enough to deal with the Ironborn. The 2,000 figure you are thinking of is from the Battle of Winterfell when the 900 combined men were joined by men from Manderly, Karstark, Tallheart, Hornwood and Flint. Most likely due to ditance were not an option at Tprrhens Square.

So, the 300 men at Torrhens Square (new information for me) were so troubled by the ~70 Ironborn attacking them they needed another 2,000 (or even just 900) men to help them?

Doesn't make the situation better in any way.

[The Fallen]

I'm just pointing out the double standards. Why is Rodrik called an idiot for doing the exact same thing Robb did, just on a smaller scale.

How many properly trained men were actually left at Winterell after both Ned and Robb had taken men South with them?

We don't know about Ned, but he took less men than Robb and left Benjen as the Stark in Winterfell.

But more importantly, Rodrik (or Luwin) stated that if Robb needed more men they could easily find them. So the question you have to ask is why didn't Rodrik take those men to Torrhen's Square? Instead, as Bran tells us, he takes most of the men at Winterfell, leaving just a few.

But the premise that "Robb did it" isn't a strong argument.

Arakan,

You're right. The only thing I can think of is that Winterfell was such an unlikely place for the ironborn to attack. No one but Theon could have pulled that off.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Does this not work both ways? How is this different to when Robbs magical animal finds a path unknown to the local population and finds 10k soldiers all fast asleep after one to many hot chocolates.

If poor writing benefits the Starks then it's further proof of how great they are if it benefits their enemies, then Stark fans throw their toys out the pram and whine about how unfair the plot is.

Because in Robb's case you really can blame magic. Because his wolf is, you know, magical and all.

In Theon's case, there sadly was no magic that transported him from the Stony Shore to the inside of Winterfell, and at the same time temporarily transported Ser Rodrik's brain to somewhere else, along with all the friggin guards of the capital of the Kingdom of the North.

So much so that 17 sailors were able to conquer the capital of a million square mile kingdom, located 500 miles from the nearest shore.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

. I assumed you were talking about Ramsay's betrayal, because the North did have enough men and leaders to deal with the Ironborn.

How did it? Victarion chooses to leave for a Kingsmoot, notthing to dow with what the remaining Northern soldiers do.

Stannis takes Deepwood Motte back for the North. Torrhens Square still remains under the Ironborns control.

Torrhen's Square had 300? Where did you get that number? How did Dagmer's <100 Ironborn sack it later? And even if Rodrik only had his 900 after dealing with Dagmer, he still could've left a very small fraction at Torrhen's Square, instead of leaving it with a skeleton garrison (which is why Dagmer was able to take it later). My point still stands.

My mistake it was 300 Cerywn men Cassel assembled on top of his 600. We are not told how many Tallheart men there are.From the second battle of Winterfell we are told that 600 are from Winterfell and its surrounding Holdfasts, 300 from Cerwyn and the other 1100 of are made up of a force from Tallheart and additional support from the Karstarks, Manderlys, Flints and Hornwoods

Have you read ADWD?

I have. There does not seem to be much evidence of the North being left with thousands of men, on top of the 2k Cassel assmbled from Winterfell

. Yes he did leave a few troops. I'm not arguing about that. It's that hee didn't leave enough to properly garrison Winterfell, which is why the sneak attack succeeded without a hitch.

The same can be said for Robb. Yes he left troops in the North, just not enough to properly defend itself from a sneak attack from the Ironborn.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So, the 300 men at Torrhens Square (new information for me) were so troubled by the ~70 Ironborn attacking them they needed another 2,000 (or even just 900) men to help them?

Doesn't make the situation better in any way.

Sorry that was my mistake. We dont have an exact figure on the Tallhearts. For some reason I always think of the Tallhearts as the Noble House and the Cerywns as the Masterly House and get them mixed up.

[GallowsKnight]

I count the Glover, Tallharts AND Cerwyns as directly Stark forces in my mind.

The Cerywns are Lords not masters, but given their extreme proximity to Winterfell, I imagine they're firmly the Stark's pocket.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I count the Glover, Tallharts AND Cerwyns as directly Stark forces in my mind.

The Cerywns are Lords not masters, but given their extreme proximity to Winterfell, I imagine they're firmly the Stark's pocket.

In AGoT, these houses are described as the principal stark bannermen (in the appendix):

The principal houses sworn to Winterfell are Karstark, Umber, Flint, Mormont, Hornwood, Cerwyn, Reed, Manderly, Glover, Tallhart, and Bolton.

These are the principal lords bannermen:

• SER HELMAN TALLHART,
• RICKARD KARSTARK, Lord of Karhold,
• ROOSE BOLTON, Lord of the Dreadfort,
• JON UMBER, called THE GREATJON,
• GALBART and ROBETT GLOVER,
• WYMAN MANDERLY, Lord of White Harbor,
• MAEGE MORMONT, the Lady of Bear Island.

I find it interesting that Howland Reed and Medger (?) Cerwyn aren't mentioned in that list, even though both are explicitly included in Ned's POV or Robb marching south.

[GallowsKnight]

In AGoT, these houses are described as the principal stark bannermen (in the appendix):

I find it interesting that Howland Reed and Medger (?) Cerwyn aren't mentioned in that list, even though both are explicitly included in Ned's POV or Robb marching south.

Oh most cetainly, not disputing that. Just being a half a days ride from Winterfell, I imagine when the Lord of Winterfell says "jump", Cerwyn's immediate response would be "how high?". Otherwise it'd be called Castle Some-Other-Northern-House.

Where as Houses like Umbar, Bolton, Karstark, Manderly etc, they need more cajoling to get the best results.

[Dimples]

I have. There does not seem to be much evidence of the North being left with thousands of men, on top of the 2k Cassel assmbled from Winterfell

The same can be said for Robb. Yes he left troops in the North, just not enough to properly defend itself from a sneak attack from the Ironborn.

1. In ADWD we see the mountain clans conjure up 3k, the Dustins and Ryswells at least 2k (at the Fever River) but more likely around 4k, the Karstarks around 500, the Umbers almost 1k, Ramsay 2k Boltons and Hornwoods, the Mormonts and Glovers at least a few hundred, and Manderly several thousand (the amount is up for debate, but 6-8k seems probable). This doesn't include the crannogmen or other houses such as the Lockes and both branches of the Flints.

2. Robb left plenty of troops up north. He took 20k south, out of a total of 45k. 25k men is plenty to defend the North against the Ironborn. The problem was that Rodrik Cassel's bad decisions led to his own death as well as the "deaths" of Bran and Rickon, depriving the North of leaders to rally around.