Strength of the Northern Houses

[The Wolves]

I'll ask again but doesn't the North have about 40 mountain clans and we only read about a few of those like Wull, Bucket, Liddle, etc.....?

[Universal Sword Donor]

I'll ask again but doesn't the North have about 40 mountain clans and we only read about a few of those like Wull, Bucket, Liddle, etc.....?

Because the other ones are so insignificant they don't merit mentioning. Or as Jon puts it, "win Old Flint and Big Bucket, the rest will follow."

[Rainblade]

Yeah, but as BBE just said, it wasn't so much that they were kids as that the Bran-Rodrik-Luwin team were forced by the plot to "carry the idiot ball" and first let Winterfell get taken by the Ironborn (which makes no sense) and then allow Ramsay to massacre all their troops.

I love that phrase BTW - "carry the idiot ball". :)

I think the ironborn invading Winterfell makes a lot of sense in that no one expected it. Bran, Rodrik, and Luwin together are competent enough to rule Winterfell, but they didn't anticipate an attack... Or the ironborn actually attacking Winterfell, and not just the coast. And they trusted in the castle's defenses. Theon disobeyed orders and went against expectations in capturing Winterfell. He knew its defenses and was able to send men over the walls in the night.

Lol and what does that phrase mean ?

[Game Of Thrones]

Because the other ones are so insignificant they don't merit mentioning. Or as Jon puts it, "win Old Flint and Big Bucket, the rest will follow."

Yeah. The most minor mountain clans can probably summon 50 men maximum.

[sertravisredbeard]

Plus GRRM used them to surprise the characters (Stannis, Asha, hopefully Roose and Ramsay in the next book) as well as the readers as to the unknown strength and loyalty of the north. He might specifically mention a few more in Winds. So far Flint, Wull, Norrey and Liddle each seem to be pretty prominent.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I think the ironborn invading Winterfell makes a lot of sense in that no one expected it. Bran, Rodrik, and Luwin together are competent enough to rule Winterfell, but they didn't anticipate an attack... Or the ironborn actually attacking Winterfell, and not just the coast. And they trusted in the castle's defenses. Theon disobeyed orders and went against expectations in capturing Winterfell. He knew its defenses and was able to send men over the walls in the night.

Lol and what does that phrase mean ?

...which goes squarely against everything established of their competency, of Winterfell's strength and basic military strategy.

Warning: TV tropes will ruin your life.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall

[Free Northman Reborn]

...which goes squarely against everything established of their competency, of Winterfell's strength and basic military strategy.

Warning: TV tropes will ruin your life.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall

Well that just about summarizes the entire "Capture of Winterfell" plotline.

[Dimples]

Warning: TV tropes will ruin your life.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall

:agree:

[thelittledragonthatcould]

...which goes squarely against everything established of their competency, of Winterfell's strength and basic military strategy.

Warning: TV tropes will ruin your life.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall

How often has the North, and in particular Winterfel, been stripped of the majority of its trained soldiers?

Ned took around 300(IIRC) of his own Winterfel men to Kings Landing.

Robb was not planning on engaging in a long drawn out war down South. It is more than possible that he never expected to be as gone as long as he did and without Jory or Rodrik Cassel there to advise him he possibly underestimated how many he needed to stay behind at Winterfell. He is still a novice at leadership at this point and the person he'd be asking advice from is the overly confident Theon.

We have no frame of reference to say how well Winterfel could be guarded in a time of war when the military is fighting in another kingdom. Had the Ironborn attacked during Roerts Rebellion they probably would have succeeded then as well, depending of course on how many men Ned took South with him as he may have taken less than the 20k Robb took.

There are so many variables to just simply label this as an idiot ball trope.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How often has the North, and in particular Winterfel, been stripped of the majority of its trained soldiers?

Ned took around 300(IIRC) of his own Winterfel men to Kings Landing.

Robb was not planning on engaging in a long drawn out war down South. It is more than possible that he never expected to be as gone as long as he did and without Jory or Rodrik Cassel there to advise him he possibly underestimated how many he needed to stay behind at Winterfell. He is still a novice at leadership at this point and the person he'd be asking advice from is the overly confident Theon.

We have no frame of reference to say how well Winterfel could be guarded in a time of war when the military is fighting in another kingdom. Had the Ironborn attacked during Roerts Rebellion they probably would have succeeded then as well, depending of course on how many men Ned took South with him as he may have taken less than the 20k Robb took.

There are so many variables to just simply label this as an idiot ball trope.

How many men took Ser Rodrik Cassel to Torrhen's Square? 2,000 to engage about 100. How many did he leave at Winterfell, the single most lethal point in the entire North-Riverlands alliance? Not enough to defend an extremely strong castle against 30.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

How many men took Ser Rodrik Cassel to Torrhen's Square? 2,000 to engage about 100. How many did he leave at Winterfell, the single most lethal point in the entire North-Riverlands alliance? Not enough to defend an extremely strong castle against 30.

He took 600 from Winterfel the other 300 were from Cerwyn. There was not enough men left in the North to defend itself.

During Roberts Rebellion we see the battle of the Trident involved 35k made up from the Vale, North, Riverlands and the Stromlands. While there would have been casualties before this I doubt Ned took with him 20k. He clearly left more men at home than Robb did in the case of attack.

The defense of the North was poorly thought out.

• Ned first leaves with 300? to kings Landing including the captain of the Guard Jory

Cat then takes the Mater of Arms on her trip to Kings Landing

Robb left Winterfel underprepared for attack, needing to raise as many men as he could muster.

Cassel was in an impossible situation, either act now while some settlements could be saved and hope Robb would return or wait while the surrounding areas fell and wait for the inevitable attack.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So, leaving like 20 out of the 600 men he took from Winterfell to guard Winterfell would make a difference at Torrhen's Square, where he had a 20:1 advantage anyway?

They would definitely have made a difference at Winterfell!

[Dimples]

He took 600 from Winterfel the other 300 were from Cerwyn.

Taking 900 to face Dagmer's tiny force (200 at the very most, probably closer to 100) is still excessive and stupid, considering that he left Winterfell with too few men to defend against Theon's 30. Additionally, after Theon takes Winterfell Rodrik takes 2,000 to deal with Theon's 30, draining Torrhen's Square of defenders so much that Dagmer's defeated force is able to capture it. Cassel was not in an impossible situation, he just dealt with it badly.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Taking 900 to face Dagmer's tiny force (200 at the very most, probably closer to 100) is still excessive and stupid, considering that he left Winterfell with too few men to defend against Theon's 30. Additionally, after Theon takes Winterfell Rodrik takes 2,000 to deal with Theon's 30, draining Torrhen's Square of defenders so much that Dagmer's defeated force is able to capture it. Cassel was not in an impossible situation, he just dealt with it badly.

Spot on.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So, leaving like 20 out of the 600 men he took from Winterfell to guard Winterfell would make a difference at Torrhen's Square, where he had a 20:1 advantage anyway?

They would definitely have made a difference at Winterfell!

Does he know how many men are at Torrhens square? Or if they have support coming to help them. He went to wipe out the threat altogether.

You seem to share Robb belief that the Ruler of a realm should shut themselves away in Winterfel/Riverrun and allow the enemy to do whatever they want to the surrounding settlements and people.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Taking 900 to face Dagmer's tiny force (200 at the very most, probably closer to 100) is still excessive and stupid, considering that he left Winterfell with too few men to defend against Theon's 30. Additionally, after Theon takes Winterfell Rodrik takes 2,000 to deal with Theon's 30, draining Torrhen's Square of defenders so much that Dagmer's defeated force is able to capture it. Cassel was not in an impossible situation, he just dealt with it badly.

That 2,000 is made up of men from the Starks, Cerwyn, Tallheart, Manderly, Flint, Hornwood and Karstark and was not enough to defend itself.

Surely the point that the North was left with not enough men and leaders to defend itself is made abundantly clear by the second battle of Winterfell.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Does he know how many men are at Torrhens square? Or if they have support coming to help them. He went to wipe out the threat altogether.

He couldn't spare one single percent of his forces to properly guard the administrative center of the North and the heirs of the King in the North? Come on.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

He couldn't spare one single percent of his forces to properly guard the administrative center of the North and the heirs of the King in the North? Come on.

Had he left 60 instead of 30 would it make much difference.

Cassel did exactly the same thing as Robb did, took to many men with him leaving his home exposed. Yet you proclaim one an idiot and the other a military great.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Had he left 60 instead of 30 would it make much difference.

Since Theon attacked with 30 himself and Winterfell is a castle... hell yes.

[Dimples]

That 2,000 is made up of men from the Starks, Cerwyn, Tallheart, Manderly, Flint, Hornwood and Karstark and was not enough to defend itself.

Surely the point that the North was left with not enough men and leaders to defend itself is made abundantly clear by the second battle of Winterfell.

Not enough to defend itself from a large-scale unexpected betrayal? The same could be said of most other armies.

The point I was making with the 2,000 is that Rodrik, once again, took too many troops to deal with tiny numbers of enemies. He took so many that Torrhen's Square, a castle and therefore strong defensive point, couldn't defend itself against Dagmer's defeated reavers, who likely numbered well under 100. Had Rodrik left even 1/20th of his 2,000 at Torrhen's Square, they would've beaten back Dagmer easily. With 1,900 against 30 Rodrik would still have a ridiculously overwhelming advantage.

Cassel did exactly the same thing as Robb did, took to many men with him leaving his home exposed. Yet you proclaim one an idiot and the other a military great.

Robb took 20k, which may not have been enough, considering Tywin and Jaime had 35k in the Riverlands already. Also, as evidenced by Rodrik's 2k (which was raised in a very short amount of time), as well as the thousands of other Northern troops we see later, Robb left the North with plenty of manpower. Cassel, on the other hand, took too many men, leaving his home exposed, even though it was totally unnecessary. Cassel could've easily spared 60 men (for example) to defend Winterfell, where they would've beat Theon handily and prove themselves useful. Instead he chooses to take those 60 with him to smash Dagmer, where they would make no difference, as Cassel already had a ludicrous numerical advantage.