Strength of the Northern Houses

[John Doe]

A Lord in the Vale or the Westerlands might be able to raise more then 6.000 men.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Karstark had 2,000 foot originally with Bolton. Maybe 1,500 died at the Green Fork.

I agree with your point though, the Boltons more than likley have around 3-4k men overall

Maybe. But raising 2k men would still make you a very powerful Lord.

Karstark took 2,300 South and had 450 remaining.

I'm not sure why youu think the Karstarks are not powerful. Pure speculation on my part but after the Boltons, Manderlys and maybe the Dustins they'd be the most powerful House in the North.

The fact that Rickard brings more men South with him and controls one of the Three Towers at Moat Cailin(kind of) supports this.

If they are(and its between them and the Boltons) then I agree 4k seems like a sensible number, maybe even 5-6 but I very much doubt they have more than that. I doubt any bannermen outside of the Reach could raise anything over 6k.

Yohn Royce could probably raise 6k. The Freys have raised close to 5k so far.

Manderly rules a port city and fertile lands around the White Knife. That puts him in a different league to the Freys, whose wealth is based on a rather out of the way River crossing.

6k is an utter minimum for Manderlys strength. 8k is more likely.

[Dimples]

Pure speculation on my part but after the Boltons, Manderlys and maybe the Dustins they'd be the most powerful House in the North.

I would add the Ryswells. The Ryswells and Karstarks have roughly equally sized domains, but the Rills are much warmer and more fertile than the vast forests around Karhold.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I would add the Ryswells. The Ryswells and Karstarks have roughly equally sized domains, but the Rills are much warmer and more fertile than the vast forests around Karhold.

They also share the West coast and would be vulnerable to Ironborn raids.

The Stony Shore is supposed to be thinly populated with fishing villages because of this problem so it stands to reason that the Rills would also suffer, although not as much.

[Free Northman Reborn]

They also share the West coast and would be vulnerable to Ironborn raids.

The Stony Shore is supposed to be thinly populated with fishing villages because of this problem so it stands to reason that the Rills would also suffer, although not as much.

The Rills are a very different region to the Stony Shore. Vulnerable to Ironborn raids? Sure, but no more so than the Mallisters who rule a far smaller territory and are prominent Riverland lords.

Also, the Rills are apparently famed for their horseherds, and the Ryswells are an ancient and powerful House, going all the way back to the ancient legends at the Wall about Lord Ryswell and the son that he buried inside the Wall for deserting.

In contrast, we don't even know who the ancient lords of the Stony Shore were. Clearly, two very different histories.

[Dimples]

They also share the West coast and would be vulnerable to Ironborn raids.

The Stony Shore is supposed to be thinly populated with fishing villages because of this problem so it stands to reason that the Rills would also suffer, although not as much.

Since the Conquest Ironborn raids haven't been as much of a problem, and when they were the Rills were much less exposed than the Stony Shore. More importantly, the Rills, along with the lands along the White Knife, are the best agricultural lands in the North.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Yohn Royce could probably raise 6k. The Freys have raised close to 5k so far.

Manderly rules a port city and fertile lands around the White Knife. That puts him in a different league to the Freys, whose wealth is based on a rather out of the way River crossing.

6k is an utter minimum for Manderlys strength. 8k is more likely.

Yohn and the other 5 Lords Declarent can raise 20k between them and that all brought 1k to treat with Littlefinger. I imagine that Royce(6k) and Waynwood(4k) would be the two most powerful Houses in the Vale but with the likes of Hunter(3k), Redfort(2.5k) and Belmore(2.5k) being no pushovers either. The Templtons(2) as a knightly House would be the weakest. This is just guesswork though.

I think 4k would be the Max for the Freys before this war, but that they would have benefited, like the Manderlys did, with the refuge of people escaping the war. The Twins can most likely only support 4k, which is still a very high number.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Since the Conquest Ironborn raids haven't been as much of a problem, and when they were the Rills were much less exposed than the Stony Shore. More importantly, the Rills, along with the lands along the White Knife, are the best agricultural lands in the North.

We dont know that. It is assumed, but we cant be sure. Moat Cailin is pretty far South yet the surrounding lands can not support a Lord to rule it. Robb mentions to his mother that he and his army had to leave Moat Cailin because the surrounding lands could not support his army.

I dont think the North kingdom is as simple as the South being better than the North, there must be other factors in play.

The Rills are a very different region to the Stony Shore. Vulnerable to Ironborn raids? Sure, but no more so than the Mallisters who rule a far smaller territory and are prominent Riverland lords.

Also, the Rills are apparently famed for their horseherds, and the Ryswells are an ancient and powerful House, going all the way back to the ancient legends at the Wall about Lord Ryswell and the son that he buried inside the Wall for deserting.

In contrast, we don't even know who the ancient lords of the Stony Shore were. Clearly, two very different histories.

The Westerlings are an ancient House with them being Kings before the Casterlys/Lannisters. Has not stopped them fading into a small time House.

I think the Ryswells have prominent name recognition and are probably more powerful than the Flints, Cerwyns and Lockes. But I doubt they are a major House. Until we have more information it is only really guess work, hopefully the new book will shed a little more light on this subject matter.

[Dimples]

We dont know that. It is assumed, but we cant be sure. Moat Cailin is pretty far South yet the surrounding lands can not support a Lord to rule it. Robb mentions to his mother that he and his army had to leave Moat Cailin because the surrounding lands could not support his army.

I dont think the North kingdom is as simple as the South being better than the North, there must be other factors in play.

The Rills also have several rivers, great grazing lands for horses (and by extension other livestock like cows), and are never specifically mentioned as infertile, like the Barrowlands and the area around Moat Cailin, which are also in the south of the North. Is that enough?

[Free Northman Reborn]

We dont know that. It is assumed, but we cant be sure. Moat Cailin is pretty far South yet the surrounding lands can not support a Lord to rule it. Robb mentions to his mother that he and his army had to leave Moat Cailin because the surrounding lands could not support his army.

I dont think the North kingdom is as simple as the South being better than the North, there must be other factors in play.

The Westerlings are an ancient House with them being Kings before the Casterlys/Lannisters. Has not stopped them fading into a small time House.

I think the Ryswells have prominent name recognition and are probably more powerful than the Flints, Cerwyns and Lockes. But I doubt they are a major House. Until we have more information it is only really guess work, hopefully the new book will shed a little more light on this subject matter.

The Wesrerlings don't rule major territories. The Ryswells rule as much territory as the Karstarks with no indication that their lands are any less fertile than that of the Karstarks.

In the absence of further evidence, they have to rank at least at the same level as the Karstarks.

Also bear in mind that if both lords can raise 3k men, the Karstarks have to spend far more resources on the logistics of getting those men to Moat Cailin, for example, while the Ryswells could do it more cheaply due to the closer proximity.

So if they both can raise the same amount of men, then the Ryswells can likely contribute more of those men to a Northern army marching South.

Lastly, Robb's comment about the lands around Moat Cailin not being able to support his army are irrelevant.

Apart from the fact that he is at the edge of the swamplands of the Neck, not even the Reach can support a 20k strong stationary army by living off the land alone.

And Robb is hardly going to pillage the lands of local peasants in the way Tywins foragers were doing in the Riverlands.

So it is totally understandable that Robb had to move his army on. There is no region in the entire North that could indefinitely support such a gathering by living off the land alone.

[Dimples]

We dont know that. It is assumed, but we cant be sure.

It is all but outright stated that the Ironborn didn't raid other parts of the Seven Kingdoms nearly as often. Whenever the realm wasn't incredibly unstable, such as during a civil war, the Ironborn wouldn't be able to reave other parts of Westeros without being punished by the Iron Throne. For example, it's mentioned several times that the Ironborn went raiding in the Stepstones. Why would they raid such poor and far off places unless they weren't allowed to raid the richer targets closer to home? In addition, Balon was fanatical about bringing back the Old Way, meaning that the Old Way wasn't practiced often while the Iron Islands were ruled by the Iron Throne.

[Free Northman Reborn]

It is all but outright stated that the Ironborn didn't raid other parts of the Seven Kingdoms nearly as often. Whenever the realm wasn't incredibly unstable, such as during a civil war, the Ironborn wouldn't be able to reave other parts of Westeros without being punished by the Iron Throne. For example, it's mentioned several times that the Ironborn went raiding in the Stepstones. Why would they raid such poor and far off places unless they weren't allowed to raid the richer targets closer to home? In addition, Balon was fanatical about bringing back the Old Way, meaning that the Old Way wasn't practiced often while the Iron Islands were ruled by the Iron Throne.

The Ironborn invaded the North around 80 years ago. So I fully accept Ironborn raids as a reality. But that was a reality for the 7700 years before Aegon's arrival as well. The Mallisters lands are not any less populated just because Seagard is close to the Iron Isles. They just hate the Ironborn more.

The same would apply to the Rills. If the lands are fertile enough, the people will fight to keep it. If it is not, like in the case of the Stony Shore, they will rather move elsewhere.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The Wesrerlings don't rule major territories.

Why do you keep on coming back to the size of the North. It has no impact on the population. You can fit almost 4 United Kingdoms into Canada yet 27 million more people live in the UK.

I'd much rather rule London than I would Siberia no matter how much more territory I get out of it.

[Nihlus]

Again, I refer you to the fact that as far as we know the Battle of the Trident involved the most men in Westeros's entire history. Around 75k men in total.

I'm pretty sure the Battle of the Blackwater was larger. 7,200 men in King's Landing under Tyrion, 21,000 men assaulting the city under Stannis, ~15,000 Lannister reinforcements led by Tywin, and 60,000 Tyrells that proceeded to basically do all of the work because they're super OP. That's over one hundred thousand. That's not counting the tens of thousands of men that'd be needed to operate the two fleets; Stannis brought 200 ships, at least eighty of which were war galleys, while the Lannisters had 50 ships.

So the 1500 Freys tagging along are in addition to the 4000 Northmen Roose returns with.

Weren't there 2,000 Freys tagging along with Roose? Also, as I asked earlier, if there were only 3,500 Boltons at the Red Wedding, who are the other 500 guys with them?

[Dimples]

The Ironborn invaded the North around 80 years ago. So I fully accept Ironborn raids as a reality. But that was a reality for the 7700 years before Aegon's arrival as well. The Mallisters lands are not any less populated just because Seagard is close to the Iron Isles. They just hate the Ironborn more.

The same would apply to the Rills. If the lands are fertile enough, the people will fight to keep it. If it is not, like in the case of the Stony Shore, they will rather move elsewhere.

Ironborn raids still happened, but less often, and only when the realm was too unstable for mere reaving to concern the Iron Throne, instead of all the time. Other than that I agree with your points.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

bringing back the Old Way, meaning that the Old Way wasn't practiced often while the Iron Islands were ruled by the Iron Throne.

They were, why do you think the female warrior culture of Bear Island has persisted in the last 300 years. There has been two major ironborn wars with the North, now with Balon and during the time of Dunk and Egg with Dagon Greyjoy. In between there has been minor raiding.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Weren't there 2,000 Freys tagging along with Roose? Also, as I asked earlier, if there were only 3,500 Boltons at the Red Wedding, who are the other 500 guys with them?

Karstarks. Although there could be more that 500. When Robb executes Rickard he is worried that that the original 2k* foot will turn on him, instead they, along with Roose, turned on Robb at the RW.

[Dimples]

They were, why do you think the female warrior culture of Bear Island has persisted in the last 300 years. There has been two major ironborn wars with the North, now with Balon and during the time of Dunk and Egg with Dagon Greyjoy. In between there has been minor raiding.

Both those wars happened when the realm was unstable and the Iron Throne couldn't be bothered to deal with it. There may have been minor raiding, but not nearly as much as there was before the Conquest. Once again, before Balon's crowning the Ironborn wanted the return of the Old Way, which signifies that the Old Way was for the most part a thing of the past.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Why do you keep on coming back to the size of the North. It has no impact on the population. You can fit almost 4 United Kingdoms into Canada yet 27 million more people live in the UK.

I'd much rather rule London than I would Siberia no matter how much more territory I get out of it.

Ah, but we are comparing regions WITHIN the North to each other. We already know how many men the Karstark area can raise. There is every reason to believe that the Rills can raise at least that many.

[Lord Reaver]

Both those wars happened when the realm was unstable and the Iron Throne couldn't be bothered to deal with it. There may have been minor raiding, but not nearly as much as there was before the Conquest. Once again, before Balon's crowning the Ironborn wanted the return of the Old Way, which signifies that the Old Way was for the most part a thing of the past.

Precisely. Ironborn raiding was by and large a thing of the past. Certainly on Westerosi land.

Balon himself, the Lord Reaper of Pyke (to be at the time, but still), had to go all the way to the Stepstones to do his reaving. That should tell you all you need to know about how prevalent Ironborn raids were in Westeros outside of extraordinary circumstances where the realm itself was unstable.