Strength of the Northern Houses

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Overall 35k seems to be very low, but still plausible. I would say 45k is a more likely estimate.

I figure anything between 35k -40k but don't believe it can be anything more than that. Torrhen raised 30k in the most imprtant battle of the Norths existence.

The final battle of Roberts Rebellion had 35k on Roberts side from 4 Kingdoms. I will be generous and say that 10k from that were Northern, I doubt Ned had 10k casualties in the couple of battles he had before that so I figure he took less men South with him then Robb did.

Even during the Princess and the Queen the North, like most factions, sent a small amount of men(2k IIRC).

[Universal Sword Donor]

I figure anything between 35k -40k but don't believe it can be anything more than that. Torrhen raised 30k in the most imprtant battle of the Norths existence.

The final battle of Roberts Rebellion had 35k on Roberts side from 4 Kingdoms. I will be generous and say that 10k from that were Northern, I doubt Ned had 10k casualties in the couple of battles he had before that so I figure he took less men South with him then Robb did.

Even during the Princess and the Queen the North, like most factions, sent a small amount of men(2k IIRC).

Your ability to opine is appreciated. Do you have anything to support your weak suppositions OR contradict other posts?

[Free Northman Reborn]

I figure anything between 35k -40k but don't believe it can be anything more than that. Torrhen raised 30k in the most imprtant battle of the Norths existence.

The final battle of Roberts Rebellion had 35k on Roberts side from 4 Kingdoms. I will be generous and say that 10k from that were Northern, I doubt Ned had 10k casualties in the couple of battles he had before that so I figure he took less men South with him then Robb did.

Even during the Princess and the Queen the North, like most factions, sent a small amount of men(2k IIRC).

Well, other than the Field of Fire - which was the combination of two separate kingdoms armies joining up, 30k is pretty much the largest single army we have ever seen gathered from solely one kingdom. Moving 30k men over a distance of 1000 miles is one hell of a logistical challenge.

That doesn't mean there aren't more men. Just that it isn't really feasible to gather more in one place, from a practical point of view.

[Dimples]

I figure anything between 35k -40k but don't believe it can be anything more than that. Torrhen raised 30k in the most imprtant battle of the Norths existence.

The final battle of Roberts Rebellion had 35k on Roberts side from 4 Kingdoms. I will be generous and say that 10k from that were Northern, I doubt Ned had 10k casualties in the couple of battles he had before that so I figure he took less men South with him then Robb did.

Even during the Princess and the Queen the North, like most factions, sent a small amount of men(2k IIRC).

At the battle of the Trident each side had 35-40k because that's how many they could support in one place. Ned could've easily had many more men, but due to logistical issues they couldn't all be at the Battle of the Trident.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

At the battle of the Trident each side had 35-40k because that's how many they could support in one place. Ned could've easily had many more men, but due to logistical issues they couldn't all be at the Battle of the Trident.

Of course he could have easily brought 20k men, but then it is possible that he would have left the North vulnerable.

A set back of the Norths size is that it needs more men at home to defend itself as back up is further away.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Of course he could have easily brought 20k men, but then it is possible that he would have left the North vulnerable.

A set back of the Norths size is that it needs more men at home to defend itself as back up is further away.

I acknowledge your second point, which speaks to Martin's comment about the Northern lords being more reluctant to release their men when the banners are called, both due to the climate, the logistical challenges of the distances involved, and probably due to the harsher nature of the North where you need your men to defend your own lands more than you would if you lived in the middle of the Reach for example.

But that merely speaks to why the North takes longer and requires more motivation from the Stark in Winterfell to raise its full strength. And supports the point that Robb gathered only a small portion of the North's strength.

It further explains why, after Eddard was beheaded and Robb lost Winterfell, each Northern lord reverted to first looking at defending his own lands at all costs, rather than sending men at Ser Rodrik's call to go and face Ironborn invading some other lord's lands 500 miles away.

It also explains why Robb was forced to try and get back to the North itself, to raise another army. He first had to win back the confidence of his reluctant lords, after he had lost Winterfell. This is bolstered by Roose Bolton's comment to Theon, in Dance, that Robb Stark lost the war when Theon captured Winterfell. That robbed him of the immediate support of much of his bannermen.

All of the above supports the position that the North can raise a LOT more men than Robb had, and quite logically explains why Ser Rodrik was not able to simply raise another 20k men at the drop of a hat, while Robb was trapped in the South.

Your first point, however, is non-sensical. The Rebel army at the Trident contained troops from the North, Vale, Riverlands and Stormlands. The fact that it only had around 35k men speaks no more about the lack of men in the Riverlands or Vale than it does about the lack of men in the North.

Each of these regions - heck, even the less populated Stormlands - can likely raise 35k men on their own. But the 35k men that arrived at the Trident was the most practical sized army available at the time, given the logistics, overall course of the campaign, and distances involved.

Again, I refer you to the fact that as far as we know the Battle of the Trident involved the most men in Westeros's entire history. Around 75k men in total.

There seems to be a reason why larger armies aren't marched around all over the place. Particularly after a war has dragged on for some time, with multiple battles and huge distances covered leading up to that point.

[Dimples]

I acknowledge your second point, which speaks to Martin's comment about the Northern lords being more reluctant to release their men when the banners are called, both due to the climate, the logistical challenges of the distances involved, and probably due to the harsher nature of the North where you need your men to defend your own lands more than you would if you lived in the middle of the Reach for example.

But that merely speaks to why the North takes longer and requires more motivation from the Stark in Winterfell to raise its full strength. And supports the point that Robb gathered only a small portion of the North's strength.

It further explains why, after Eddard was beheaded and Robb lost Winterfell, each Northern lord reverted to first looking at defending his own lands at all costs, rather than sending men at Ser Rodrik's call to go and face Ironborn invading some other lord's lands 500 miles away.

It also explains why Robb was forced to try and get back to the North itself, to raise another army. He first had to win back the confidence of his reluctant lords, after he had lost Winterfell. This is bolstered by Roose Bolton's comment to Theon, in Dance, that Robb Stark lost the war when Theon captured Winterfell. That robbed him of the immediate support of much of his bannermen.

All of the above supports the position that the North can raise a LOT more men than Robb had, and quite logically explains why Ser Rodrik was not able to simply raise another 20k men at the drop of a hat, while Robb was trapped in the South.

Your first point, however, is non-sensical. The Rebel army at the Trident contained troops from the North, Vale, Riverlands and Stormlands. The fact that it only had around 35k men speaks no more about the lack of men in the Riverlands or Vale than it does about the lack of men in the North.

Each of these regions - heck, even the less population Stormlands - can likely raise 35k men on their own. But the 35k men that arrived at the Trident was the most practical sized army available at the time, given the logistics, overall course of the campaign, and distances involved.

Again, I refer you to the fact that as far as we know the Battle of the Trident involved the most men in Westeros's entire history. Around 75k men in total.

There seems to be a reason why larger armies aren't marched around all over the place. Particularly after a war has dragged on for some time, with multiple battles and huge distances covered leading up to that point.

:agree:

[Game Of Thrones]

We should use this to get a better understanding of how many each House in the North has. Ran states in this video that the North has around 35k.

At the start of the series, we have the

• Starks as the Overlords(including Glovers and Tallhearts in this figure): I figure that this combo will equal whichever House has the highest number of soldiers. For the time being I will have them at 4k, in my opinion a Conservative estimate.

As well as the Noble House of

• Bolton: Roose brought 3,5k home of Bolton and Karstark men. If add the 600 Ramay used to take Winterfell I will put the Boltons at a conservative 2k

Cerwyn: 1k

Dustin: 1k

Flint of Flints finger: 1k

Flint of Widows Watch: 1k

Hornwood: 1k

Karstark: Bring 2,300 South and have 450 remaining. 2,750

Locke: 1k

Manderly: 1,500 South and have at least 400 remaining

Mormont: 1k

Reed( which includes the other Crannogmen): 1k

Ryswell: 1k

Umber: the Greatjon, like Rickard, controls one of the three Towers at Moat Cailin this suggests that he has brought a similar amount of men South. I will be conservative and put the amount at 2k including the 400-700 that remained in the North.

All of whom have at least 1k.

As well as

• Mountain Clans: We know that they contribute around 3k to Stannis and supply some men to Robb down South. I will call that 4k.

Skagos. ???

From that 35k we have 26k with around 10k to add on to some House and Skagos.

'l will edit the likely mistakes I make.

You are WAY underestimating the power of the North.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Each of these regions - heck, even the less populated Stormlands - can likely raise 35k men on their own. But the 35k men that arrived at the Trident was the most practical sized army available at the time, given the logistics, overall course of the campaign, and distances involved.

I doubt the Stormlands can. They'd have a similar amount, maybe slightly more, to Dorne. In his own words "The stormlands have lots of trees and rocks and rain".

Before Aegon they could probably raise more but after losing some lands I imagine that they can only raise 30k

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You are WAY underestimating the power of the North.

I'm not. I have accounted for the 26k we definitely know there is(from the books) and acknowledge that there is still another 10k unaccounted for.

[Game Of Thrones]

I doubt the Stormlands can. They'd have a similar amount, maybe slightly more, to Dorne. In his own words "The stormlands have lots of trees and rocks and rain".

Before Aegon they could probably raise more but after losing some lands I imagine that they can only raise 30k

If two Marcher Lords, and there are four, can summon 5,000 men, the Marcher lords alone can summon 10,000 men. And the Marcher Houses are only four Houses, with dozens of other Houses north of the Marches.

The Storm lords can probably summon 30,000~40,000.

[Game Of Thrones]

I'm not. I have accounted for the 26k we definitely know there is(from the books) and acknowledge that there is still another 10k unaccounted for.

-The 3500 men Roose had were mostly Boltons, so 3000 Boltons. Add Ramsay's 600 and you get 3600 Boltons, and probably more, since Boltons are very powerful.

-Dustins and Ryswells are very powerful Houses, so they should have at least 3000 men each.

-Rickard took 3000 Karstarks south, and the Karstarks aren't even a particularly powerful House. Add the 450 at Karhold and you get 3500.

-So Umbers have ~3500 too.

-Manderlys are the greatest Stark bannermen so at least 4000 men.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

If two Marcher Lords, and there are four, can summon 5,000 men, the Marcher lords alone can summon 10,000 men. And the Marcher Houses are only four Houses, with dozens of other Houses north of the Marches.

The Storm lords can probably summon 30,000~40,000.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. The Freys raising 4k does not mean that the 27 other noble Riverlords can all raise 4k. House Caron and Dondarion raising 4,800 is impressive, but the Marcher Lords, like their Dornish opposites the Badgers and Yronwoods, are likely to control more men that the average Noble in their region.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I doubt the Stormlands can. They'd have a similar amount, maybe slightly more, to Dorne. In his own words "The stormlands have lots of trees and rocks and rain".

Before Aegon they could probably raise more but after losing some lands I imagine that they can only raise 30k

Yes, the Stormlands are the second lowest of the mainland kingdoms. Between 30k-35k I would guess. If Dorne is at 30k, I would put the Stormlands at 35k. If Dorne has only 25k, then the Stormlands might be at around 30k. We need more info to get more specific numbers for those two kingdoms.

But that is beside the main point we are discussing here.

The fact is that we have more info on the North's strength than on pretty much any other region. Right down to decent clues about the strength of many of the bannerlords.

I take your estimate of the Dustins and Ryswells strength for example.

We know that the least of the Northern bannerlords can raise MORE than 1000 men.

The Dustins rule the second largest town in the entire North. Their lands are also in the very south of the North. And their lands are the largest in territory of all the Northern lords. The Barrowlands are absolutely huge. About the size of the entire Germany. Or put differently, about half the size of the entire Riverlands.

Roose Bolton acknowledges lady Dustin's power himself, as being the most significant potential opponent to his rule left in the North.

It is preposterous to put the Karstarks at around 3000 men, while the Dustins are at the very bottom of the Northern ladder with a mere 1000 men - the bare minimum level for a Northern bannerlord, as Lord Mormont confirmed to Jon.

Equally, the Ryswells rule a very large, fertile region of the North. Easily as big as the Karstark lands, but almost 1000 miles further South. We know it is well watered, that's why it is called the Rills.

They are going to have a very large population. Easily as big as that of the Karstarks, and likely much higher. Martin even retro-engineers a handy reason why they have not been more prominent in Northern politics up to now. Because their 4 lords are constantly quarreling with each other, thus not giving them a united ruler in the time of the books.

Just like he retro-engineers a handy reason why the Dustins were not a prominent part of Robb's army. Because Lady Dustin supposedly kept most of her men back deliberately.

So your estimates for these houses are far too low.

[John Doe]

-The 3500 men Roose had were mostly Boltons, so 3000 Boltons. Add Ramsay's 600 and you get 3600 Boltons, and probably more, since Boltons are very powerful.

-Dustins and Ryswells are very powerful Houses, so they should have at least 3000 men each.

-Rickard took 3000 Karstarks south, and the Karstarks aren't even a particularly powerful House. Add the 450 at Karhold and you get 3500.

-So Umbers have ~3500 too.

-Manderlys are the greatest Stark bannermen so at least 4000 men.

Half of the 3.500 men are Freys, there are only 2.000 Bolton men.

Dustins and Ryswells were probably only that powerful because other major houses lost most of their strenghtin the South

[Dimples]

Half of the 3.500 men are Freys, there are only 2.000 Bolton men.

No. Roose had 3,500 from Robb's original host of northmen. The Freys were a seperate contingent.

[John Doe]

Okay.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

-The 3500 men Roose had were mostly Boltons, so 3000 Boltons. Add Ramsay's 600 and you get 3600 Boltons, and probably more, since Boltons are very powerful.

Karstark had 2,000 foot originally with Bolton. Maybe 1,500 died at the Green Fork.

I agree with your point though, the Boltons more than likley have around 3-4k men overall

-Dustins and Ryswells are very powerful Houses, so they should have at least 3000 men each.

Maybe. But raising 2k men would still make you a very powerful Lord.

-Rickard took 3000 Karstarks south, and the Karstarks aren't even a particularly powerful House. Add the 450 at Karhold and you get 3500.

-So Umbers have ~3500 too.

Karstark took 2,300 South and had 450 remaining.

I'm not sure why youu think the Karstarks are not powerful. Pure speculation on my part but after the Boltons, Manderlys and maybe the Dustins they'd be the most powerful House in the North.

The fact that Rickard brings more men South with him and controls one of the Three Towers at Moat Cailin(kind of) supports this.

-Manderlys are the greatest Stark bannermen so at least 4000 men.

If they are(and its between them and the Boltons) then I agree 4k seems like a sensible number, maybe even 5-6 but I very much doubt they have more than that. I doubt any bannermen outside of the Reach could raise anything over 6k.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Half of the 3.500 men are Freys, there are only 2.000 Bolton men.

Dustins and Ryswells were probably only that powerful because other major houses lost most of their strenghtin the South

No. Theon is very clear. He says of the 19500k men that marched South through the Neck, only 2 in 10 were returning. That's 4000 men. The Freys did not march South through the Neck. So the 1500 Freys tagging along are in addition to the 4000 Northmen Roose returns with.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So your estimates for these houses are far too low.

My estimate is not 1k. That is the lowest it can be. I said at the bottom of that post that only 26k of the 35k were accounted for with another 10k to be added to various Houses. Those were not my final numbers, just the accurate number we had been given at that point.

I actually think the Dustins are most likely in the top 5 Houses in the North. We just have not been given any accurate numbers to say how many, all we have is Jons 1k per Lord claim.