Strength of the Northern Houses

[sertravisredbeard]

I know both Robb and Rodrik both screwed up royally but I think Winterfell falling had less to do with the amount of men there than how it was taken. Neither of them anticipated an enemy commander that

1. Had intimate knowledge of not only how the castle was being defended but WHO was defending it (the young, the old, the infirm, etc.)

2. An enemy both smart enough to attack in a way it could be taken easily but too dumb to realize there'd be no way he could hold it for long.

Theon was the perfect dumb poker player to sack Winterfell but not be able to use it for anything useful.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Why do you keep on coming back to the size of the North. It has no impact on the population. You can fit almost 4 United Kingdoms into Canada yet 27 million more people live in the UK.

I'd much rather rule London than I would Siberia no matter how much more territory I get out of it.

Yes, Yes it does. The entirety of the North is inhabitable. Siberia and Northern Canada are not. Excluding the gift and the new gift, we know all the land is inhabited. If the North were half the size it is, they'd have half the population.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I know both Robb and Rodrik both screwed up royally but I think Winterfell falling had less to do with the amount of men there than how it was taken. Neither of them anticipated an enemy commander that

1. Had intimate knowledge of not only how the castle was being defended but WHO was defending it (the young, the old, the infirm, etc.)

2. An enemy both smart enough to attack in a way it could be taken easily but too dumb to realize there'd be no way he could hold it for long.

Theon was the perfect dumb poker player to sack Winterfell but not be able to use it for anything useful.

Number of men and how it was taken go hand in hand.

Theon's 30 men used grappling hooks to climb and rappel 80 and 100 foot walls. You're telling me that no one notices it if the walls are properly manned?

[Dimples]

Number of men and how it was taken go hand in hand.

Theon's 30 men used grappling hooks to climb and rappel 80 and 100 foot walls. You're telling me that no one notices it if the walls are properly manned?

Exactly.

[Lee-Sensei]

Since Theon attacked with 30 himself and Winterfell is a castle... hell yes.

Not necessarily. The IB attacked in the night and a good many of the people left behind would have probably been sleeping.

[Dimples]

Not necessarily. The IB attacked in the night and a good many of the people left behind would have probably been sleeping.

Yes, much of the garrison would've been sleeping, but the point is that if Rodrik had left a few more men there still would've been enough of them manning the walls to spot the Ironborn.

[Lee-Sensei]

Yes, much of the garrison would've been sleeping, but the point is that if Rodrik had left a few more men there still would've been enough of them manning the walls to spot the Ironborn.

Again. Not necessarily. Theon knew the layout, attacked at night stealthily with grappling hooks and a small crew. How many people did Rodrik have with him anyways? How many would he have needed to push at he Iron Born.

[Dimples]

Again. Not necessarily. Theon knew the layout, attacked at night stealthily with grappling hooks and a small crew. How many people did Rodrik have with him anyways? How many would he have needed to push at he Iron Born.

Rodrik took 900 men with him to deal with Dagmer's 100 (at most) men. It took Theon's men a long time to swim the moat and climb the double walls. If Rodrik had left 60 or so more men (maybe even just 30) at Winterfell, Theon wouldn't have made it through such a large and defensible castle undetected.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Rodrik took 900 men with him to deal with Dagmer's 100 (at most) men. It took Theon's men a long time to swim the moat and climb the double walls. If Rodrik had left 60 or so more men (maybe even just 30) at Winterfell, Theon wouldn't have made it through such a large and defensible castle undetected.

300 of which were from House Cerwyn.

Not all of the 600 were from Winterfell as its stated some were from the surrounding Holdfasts.

He left a Household guard, Alebelly and others who were killed by the Ironborn who took them by surprise.

The trouble is not so much the men as having the time to train new men who were as good and knew Winterfell as well as the 300(iirc) Winterfell Guards and retainers Ned brought to Kings Landing and the men Robb brought South with him.

Remember when Robb left for the South he was a 15 year old boy with no Captain of the Guard(Jory) his successor Hallis Mollen, Master of Arms(Rodrick), or Steward(Poole) to ask for advice on who was needed at Winterfell. All the regular or best had been taken South.

These new guards likely did not know the weaknesses Winterfell had.

[Universal Sword Donor]

300 of which were from House Cerwyn.

Not all of the 600 were from Winterfell as its stated some were from the surrounding Holdfasts.

He left a Household guard, Alebelly and others who were killed by the Ironborn who took them by surprise.

The trouble is not so much the men as having the time to train new men who were as good and knew Winterfell as well as the 300(iirc) Winterfell Guards and retainers Ned brought to Kings Landing and the men Robb brought South with him.

Remember when Robb left for the South he was a 15 year old boy with no Captain of the Guard(Jory) his successor Hallis Mollen, Master of Arms(Rodrick), or Steward(Poole) to ask for advice on who was needed at Winterfell. All the regular or best had been taken South.

These new guards likely did not know the weaknesses Winterfell had.

He had Maester Luwin. Besides no one should give a shit what Robb thought when he went south. Rodrik was the one who left WF inappropriately defended, not Robb.

The trouble was the Rodrik fucked up, not Robb or Ned.

Once again, climbing an 80 ft wall, crossing a moat, and then scaling a 100 ft wall takes a *lot* of time. Any reasonable garrison at least sounds an alarm, if not outright slaughters them like rats in a toilet.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

He had Maester Luwin. Besides no one should give a shit what Robb thought when he went south. Rodrik was the one who left WF inappropriately defended, not Robb.

The trouble was the Rodrik fucked up, not Robb or Ned.

Once again, climbing an 80 ft wall, crossing a moat, and then scaling a 100 ft wall takes a *lot* of time. Any reasonable garrison at least sounds an alarm, if not outright slaughters them like rats in a toilet.

You are right, but there was a garrison so the issue was probably quality not quantity. Better trained guards could have spotted the Ironborn before they were a threat.

Maester Luwin is probably not much help when it comes to military.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well the discrepancy between the Dreadfort's 600 strong professional garrison and Winterfell's 20-odd village idiots is rather obvious.

Idiot ball moment indeed.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Well the discrepancy between the Dreadfort's 600 strong professional garrison and Winterfell's 20-odd village idiots is rather obvious.

Idiot ball moment indeed.

That would be Roose leaving behind better soldiers than some of his Northern peers.

The fact that the remaining 600 Bolton men made easy work of the 2,000 Stark, Cerwyn, Tallheart, Manderly, Hornwood and Flint men suggests the Dreadfort reserves were better trained than their counterparts.

I dont think that can be blamed on Rodrick, he was still in the South when Robb and Theon were deciding which Winterfell men to take and which to leave. Ned had already taken the best Winterfell had to offer,.

[Universal Sword Donor]

You are right, but there was a garrison so the issue was probably quality not quantity. Better trained guards could have spotted the Ironborn before they were a threat.

Maester Luwin is probably not much help when it comes to military.

Rodrik was training replacements, and both Theon and Luwin note he trained Theon in warfare.

The guards just weren't there. Quality would have been an issue. Quantity was clearly the more important one. Alebelly had been a guardsman before Ned left. Whether or not the others is a moot point, they fucking sucked at guarding the capital.

[Universal Sword Donor]

That would be Roose leaving behind better soldiers than some of his Northern peers.

The fact that the remaining 600 Bolton men made easy work of the 2,000 Stark, Cerwyn, Tallheart, Manderly, Hornwood and Flint men suggests the Dreadfort reserves were better trained than their counterparts.

I dont think that can be blamed on Rodrick, he was still in the South when Robb and Theon were deciding which Winterfell men to take and which to leave. Ned had already taken the best Winterfell had to offer,.

Yes, yes it can. The dreadfort men were mounted. The Stark+ men were not.

If Rodrik had left a substantive garrison, the IB would be rotting in the inner moat *at best*.

[Barty]

That would be Roose leaving behind better soldiers than some of his Northern peers.

The fact that the remaining 600 Bolton men made easy work of the 2,000 Stark, Cerwyn, Tallheart, Manderly, Hornwood and Flint men suggests the Dreadfort reserves were better trained than their counterparts.

I dont think that can be blamed on Rodrick, he was still in the South when Robb and Theon were deciding which Winterfell men to take and which to leave. Ned had already taken the best Winterfell had to offer,.

That's probably because those 600 took the 2000 by surprise and the 2000 lost their leadership before the battle even began. It says nothing about the quality of soldiers - Stannis is now using some of these same men.

[Dimples]

You are right, but there was a garrison so the issue was probably quality not quantity. Better trained guards could have spotted the Ironborn before they were a threat.

The quality of the guards certainly was a factor, but if Rodrik had left more guards they would've covered more of the castle and therefore had a much better chance of spotting the Ironborn.

[Free Northman Reborn]

That would be Roose leaving behind better soldiers than some of his Northern peers.

The fact that the remaining 600 Bolton men made easy work of the 2,000 Stark, Cerwyn, Tallheart, Manderly, Hornwood and Flint men suggests the Dreadfort reserves were better trained than their counterparts.

I dont think that can be blamed on Rodrick, he was still in the South when Robb and Theon were deciding which Winterfell men to take and which to leave. Ned had already taken the best Winterfell had to offer,.

Well that makes Winterfell idiots for not having properly trained soldiers.

Roose sent at least as many men South as Winterfell did. And he is even farther removed from the Ironborn threat than Winterfell is. Plus his stronghold is not the capital of an entire kingdom that is at war.

All reasons why you are carrying the idiot ball if you don't leave Winterfell with at least as strong a garrison as Roose left at the Dreadfort.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Yes, yes it can. The dreadfort men were mounted. The Stark+ men were not.

If Rodrik had left a substantive garrison, the IB would be rotting in the inner moat *at best*.

Yoy

That's probably because those 600 took the 2000 by surprise and the 2000 lost their leadership before the battle even began. It says nothing about the quality of soldiers - Stannis is now using some of these same men.

He can't be using the same men, Ramsay and the Boltons killed them all.

Rodrik was training replacements, and both Theon and Luwin note he trained Theon in warfare.

The guards just weren't there. Quality would have been an issue. Quantity was clearly the more important one. Alebelly had been a guardsman before Ned left. Whether or not the others is a moot point, they fucking sucked at guarding the capital.

He was training yet more new guards, that takes time. Owing to him having to travel back from the South and then to Hornwood he did not have sufficient time to properly train them to the level of the Guards taken by Ned.

Yes, yes it can. The dreadfort men were mounted. The Stark+ men were not.

If Rodrik had left a substantive garrison, the IB would be rotting in the inner moat *at best*.

Or if he had the option of leaving better Guards the Ironborn would have been picked off before they got into Winterfell

[Barty]

You are right, but there was a garrison so the issue was probably quality not quantity. Better trained guards could have spotted the Ironborn before they were a threat.

Maester Luwin is probably not much help when it comes to military.

The problem was clearly quantity - or do you truly think that if WF had 100 guards(even if they were new recruits) it would still have fallen??

Theon did not use some hidden,secret passage into WF - he was not noticed because WF barely had 15-20 men and probably 6-10 of them were on guard - clearly not enough to man the entire wall.