Jaime, Rhaegar, and their connection

[Nephenee]

I've made a couple Jaime threads over the past couple of weeks but they've all been closed for whatever reasons, so I'm going to go ahead and post a theory instead and hope this thread won't be closed. I've done a lot of thinking on this theory so I hope that you might like it.

Jaime has received a lot of crap from people here for sleeping with his sister, Cersei. But is Jaime really Cersei's brother? There are many things that don't add up here. Lannister traits are:

1. Greedy

2. Materialistic

3. Conniving

4. Cunning

5. Morally ambiguous or evil

Jaime doesn't really seem to have any of these traits.

1. Jaime isn't evil or morally ambiguous, but good (saved King's Landing, Brienne, Riverlands)

2. Jaime isn't greedy. Have you ever seen him ask for gold?

3. Isn't really a manipulator like Cersei or Tywin or Tyrion. Jaime is kind of out of place.

4. Jaime cares more about love than about money.

Jaime doesn't really seem to be a Lannister in terms of personality. Doesn't he seem out of place in a group of people like Cersei, Tywin and Tyrion who all have many traits in common? I'm going to take this up a notch. I'm going to claim that Jaime isn't a Lannister, and is in fact, Rhaegar. I propose that Rhaegar as described in the books is a lot more similar to what a Lannister would truly be. He had armor with rubies, which is quite greedy and materialistic. He kidnapped Lyanna which is evil. Does he not seem more Lannister-like than Jaime? Genes get passed down to offspring, and the genes that make the Lannisters cunning manipulators always get passed down. They didn't get passed down to Jaime.

My final evidence for this theory is this. Jon describes Jaime as "kingly." This is because Jaime is the true king of Westeros and the first in line after Aerys's death. He is indeed kingly, and he acts and looks like a King too.

How am I going to explain Rhaegar being Jaime and Jaime being Rhaegar? Perhaps Tywin switched them as babies due to revenge for Aerys mistreating him, and he made sure to dye the hairs of the children (Elia, Aegon, Tommen, Myrcella, Joffrey).

Tl;dr: Jaime never committed incest because he wasn't Cersei's brother. He isn't enough of a Lannister in terms of personality to be a Lannister. But Rhaegar is.

[nara]

It's true that Jaime is different from some of the other Lannisters, but his aunt Genna said he was more like Tywin's brothers. Jaime does have other Lannister traits: courage, arrogance, physical beauty, romantic nature(Jaime, Tywin, and even Tyrion seem to be romantic about their lady loves) He did have the golden armour that was considered pretty fancy. Also, the timeline for switched babies doesn't work because Jaime and Cersei are 8-10 years younger than Rhaegar.

[FacelessMan21]

I think Jaime's "good" side comes from his knightly training. Despite him being the 'kingslayer' I assume GRRM wants the knights of Westeros to be looked at as real medieval knights, and thus he would have had training in the importance of chivalry and would have had a romantic side installed into him.

And as nara points out the timeline doesn't account for that explanation. I think Jaime is definitely a Lannister, he's just disillusioned with the greed of his family.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

I think the point is, there is good and bad in every family. Not all Lannisters are arrogant D-bags. Hell, Tywin's father was way too laid back. Tywin, perhaps is a victim of circumstance and was raised his children in a horrific way. Jaime, however, was sent off young to train as a knight, where as Cersei learnt more from her father - which explains the reason she is like him. Similar to Tyrion, I believe. He wasn't going to be sent off as a squire, then knight.

If we are to believe in natural traits, Jaime gains his from his uncles. Who, appear to be quite likeable. One really nice to Tyrion, as Jaime is. Not all Lannisters will be dicks. Hell, Starks are meant to be worse, historically speaking. "Harsh lands breed harsh people." The kings in the north were brutal! :)

[Groat]

1. Jaime isn't evil or morally ambiguous, but good (saved King's Landing, Brienne, Riverlands)

Jaime would be the definition of morally ambiguous

Lannister traits are:

1. Greedy

2. Materialistic

3. Conniving

4. Cunning

5. Morally ambiguous or evil

This means many characters, Littlefinger, Roose, Manderly are all Lannisters then?

[Morienthar]

So.................Tywin slept with Rhaella and Joanna with Aerys.

Um ok.

[MRHD]

Makes sense, I give this theory a 10/10.

[David Selig]

You do realise morality is mostly learned, not inherited, right?

Not that it matters, since Jaime is quite the scumbag, so not out of place in the family.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

You do realise morality is mostly learned, not inherited, right?

Not that it matters, since Jaime is quite the scumbag, so not out of place in the family.

He's not really a scumbag...

[The Dornishman's Wife]

He's not really a scumbag...

"Kill his men."

He is.

To borrow the OP's formulation, that's not even morally ambiguous.

[Minsc]

He's not really a scumbag...

He just pushed a kid out a window and then later went hunting for another kid some he could maim them, but yeah he is an up standing individual.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

"Kill his men."

He is.

The good does not wash out the bad, nor the bad the good. Just because the Ned wouldn't care if his family were taken prisoner, doesn't mean Jaime will allow it. And he doesn't do it for Tywin's reasons, he cares for Tyrion. Caring for your family is being a scumbag? I don't think so. The moment they stole Tyrion, they became enemies. The only reason he didn't kill Ned is because Tyrion would be executed. But he knew, no one would care about the men who were killed; the smallfolk aren't important to the Lord's. However, Jaime has someone killed for trying to rape Pia, so.... yeah, he is not always a scumbag. There are worse people.

[yolkboy]

How am I going to explain Rhaegar being Jaime and Jaime being Rhaegar? Perhaps Tywin switched them as babies

Switching a 7 year old for a new born baby?

That's some trick!

[The Dornishman's Wife]

The good does not wash out the bad, nor the bad the good.

That makes him an upstanding scumbag then? Anyways, I'll give you one thing: He's got the most committed trolls fighting for him.

How am I going to explain Rhaegar being Jaime and Jaime being Rhaegar? Perhaps Tywin switched them as babies due to revenge for Aerys mistreating him, and he made sure to dye the hairs of the children (Elia, Aegon, Tommen, Myrcella, Joffrey).

[Minsc]

The good does not wash out the bad, nor the bad the good. Just because the Ned wouldn't care if his family were taken prisoner, doesn't mean Jaime will allow it. And he doesn't do it for Tywin's reasons, he cares for Tyrion. Caring for your family is being a scumbag? I don't think so. The moment they stole Tyrion, they became enemies. The only reason he didn't kill Ned is because Tyrion would be executed. But he knew, no one would care about the men who were killed; the smallfolk aren't important to the Lord's. However, Jaime has someone killed for trying to rape Pia, so.... yeah, he is not always a scumbag. There are worse people.

Just because Jaime is having a whiny fit because his brother has been arrested doesn't make it okay for him to murder some people, especially when he personally knows that he and his family has grievously wronged the Starks already.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

He just pushed a kid out a window and then later went hunting for another kid some he could maim them, but yeah he is an up standing individual.

Not going to defend him for that, it was wrong. Plain wrong.

The Arya thing, well, in terms of law she should have been executed. But that is for another thread completely. :cool4:

My point was that Lannister's are not all scumbags; at least not all the time. Tyrion is a far worse character and person than Jaime.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

That makes him an upstanding scumbag then? Anyways, I'll give you one thing: He's got the most committed trolls fighting for him.

Are you referring to me as a Troll?

[Minsc]

Not going to defend him for that, it was wrong. Plain wrong.

The Arya thing, well, in terms of law she should have been executed. But that is for another thread completely. :cool4:

My point was that Lannister's are not all scumbags; at least not all the time. Tyrion is a far worse character and person than Jaime.

I am pretty sure it is up to Robert what Arya's punishment should have been not Cersei and Jaime.

Nah, I would rate Tyrion as being a better person then Jaime as Tyrion holds some sense of loyalty while Jaime doesn't.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Are you referring to me as a Troll?

Not at all. Sorry for that misunderstanding, I thought the quote following my statement made it clear what I referred to. For the record:

I do not think you're a troll at all, nor did I want to imply otherwise.

[Drogon'sWrath]

Jaime, pre-Storm, isn't that great of a guy. Hell, I would say he was a selfish dick, although I think his recent change is genuine As others pointed out, Rhaegar is eight years older than Jaime and Cersei. Plus, Rhaegar had the tell-tale Targ traits (silver hair and purple eyes) and Jaime the tell-tale Lannister traits (golden hair). Tywin and Aerys both would've had to be involved in this conspiracy. And even if by the .00000001% chance this is true, Jaime still believed that Cersei is his sister and still believed he was committing incest.