Heresy 64

[Nights Watchman Cometh]

The FM started with slaves of the Valyrian Freehold, they basically exist to kill dragonlords

Dawn was also forged from a meteorite as well.

[Tyryan Lannister]

And now for something completely different:

A thought just occurred to me (no evidence to back this up whatsoever, but....):

Identity of Coldhands: Craster or one of his forebears (i.e. the originator of Craster's curse) sent to atone for his sin(s)? Don't know how I came up with it, just rereading Dance and at the first Bran chapter where they are in the village and CH comes back after having killed the NWmen and I guess just kind of the thought of a semi-poetic justice of Craster coming back and being forced to help them to atone for his sins and then he gets to attack the brothers who violated his guest right.

Food for thought

[A Crow Come Over]

And now for something completely different:

A thought just occurred to me (no evidence to back this up whatsoever, but....):

Identity of Coldhands: Craster or one of his forebears (i.e. the originator of Craster's curse) sent to atone for his sin(s)? Don't know how I came up with it, just rereading Dance and at the first Bran chapter where they are in the village and CH comes back after having killed the NWmen and I guess just kind of the thought of a semi-poetic justice of Craster coming back and being forced to help them to atone for his sins and then he gets to attack the brothers who violated his guest right.

Food for thought

Since I think that Craster has Stark blood and I think CH is the original Nights King (also a Stark) I agree with this!

[Black Crow]

I dunno. Is there anything to suggest that the Pact was anything but satisfactory for both sides? As I understood it their gradual disappearance came AFTER the Andals came. The fact that the North still holds some of the traditions the COTF taught the FM that the Northmen are descended from always suggested to me that while they Andals were the ones who caused the real problems the Northmen (i.e descendants of their old allies, who they fought the Others with) were still alright in their eyes, hence them seeing out Bran.

The disappearance of the children was anything but gradual. They were getting hammered by the First Men until they agreed the Pact:

The wars went on until the earth ran red with the blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze.

As a consequence the children ceded everything but the deep woods, and although Maester Luwin says they lived in harmony, they effectively went to ground in those deep woods and in the winter retired into their caves while men were slaughtered by the blue-eyed boys from up north. Then when the Andals came they fled, all the way beyond the Wall. There was nothing gradual about their disappearance at all.

[Black Crow]

And now for something completely different:

Identity of Coldhands: Craster or one of his forebears (i.e. the originator of Craster's curse) sent to atone for his sin(s)?

Its an interesting idea and certainly poetic justice, but he aint Craster; whatever his true origins Craster himself was never a man of the Nights Watch.

[Black Crow]

Black Crow, on Yesterday, 04:35 PM, said:

"As to greenseers; that's exactly the point I'm making. Its not necessarily related to the observance or non-observance of a Pact broken so very long ago, but rather with maintaining a window into the realms of men."

For what purpose though? So far I haven't seen an indication of influence by BR in his capacity as the greenseer of the COTF (if it has been discussed in the previous Heresy's that I missed then let me know).

Basically we have an age old conflict, loosely defined as the Song of Ice and Fire, which according to Mel has been waged since time began. I say loosely because it isn't necessarily closely confined to those elements, but might be considered more abstractly. What we are seeing in Westeros is not just the onset of Winter but the awakening of the old powers. One of the big questions, and whether Summerhall is part of the answer or not, is what has awakened those old powers. Given that men represent the greatest threat to those powers it follows that they in turn need a window into the realms of men to observe and assess that threat.

[King of Winters]

I'm sure that this has been brought up before but is there anything else on the Others being based on Orcs from LOTR? Since, if the Others were once First Men who were turned into Others by ice magic, they have something in common as the Orcs were once Elves who were tortured and mutilated, by Morgoth, into Orcs.

[Black Crow]

I'm sure that this has been brought up before but is there anything else on the Others being based on Orcs from LOTR? Since, if the Others were once First Men who were turned into Others by ice magic, they have something in common as the Orcs were once Elves who were tortured and mutilated, by Morgoth, into Orcs.

Its an interesting question, which I honestly can't answer as I'm not in the least familiar with Lord of the Rings (read it over the course of three days when I was 16 and haven't looked at it since), but as to discussion of the point I think its fair to say not as the notion of the blue-eyed lot really being Craster's sons isn't entertained outside of heresy - and indeed sometimes draws a curiously hysterical denial.

As to the torture and mutilation however, you may well have a point if we translate over what we've seen of the Red lot. Neither Mel nor Victarion enjoyed a pleasant experience as they were transformed, so its reasonable to expect the same of becoming Ice made flesh

[King of Winters]

Its an interesting question, which I honestly can't answer as I'm not in the least familiar with Lord of the Rings (read it over the course of three days when I was 16 and haven't looked at it since), but as to discussion of the point I think its fair to say not as the notion of the blue-eyed lot really being Craster's sons isn't entertained outside of heresy - and indeed sometimes draws a curiously hysterical denial.

As to the torture and mutilation however, you may well have a point if we translate over what we've seen of the Red lot. Neither Mel nor Victarion enjoyed a pleasant experience as they were transformed, so its reasonable to expect the same of becoming Ice made flesh

To add to the connection to the Orcs. Orcs were said to be not evil on their own, that they only followed Sauron, but they were not truly evil themselves.

So this could also be a parrallel with the COTF controlling the Others for their own uses.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Why they would create Wights if they could create more of them?

[avernite]

To add to the connection to the Orcs. Orcs were said to be not evil on their own, that they only followed Sauron, but they were not truly evil themselves.

So this could also be a parrallel with the COTF controlling the Others for their own uses.

Hmm, while the will of Sauron certainly made them more evil, I don't think they were ever good or nice. The distinction between good and evil becomes rather murky if 'want to kill the goodies' (the elves, and men of the west) is not enough to be called evil.

The most important part was his will making them organise. Orcs left to their own devices would behave more like opportunists; they'd plunder a weakly defended city, kill stragglers in their lands... but they hardly would start a war with strong kingdoms unless pushed to do so. (i.e. not much worse than 'bad' humans)

That said, the Others as twisted humans doesn't mean they have to all be first-generation humans. Maybe some were turned during the Long Night (or turned to start it) and have just been breeding since? As Aemon says, ice preserves, so it's quite possible they don't breed overly fast and still manage to hold out. Maybe this whole Other invasion is just because the lands of Always Winter are getting a wee bit crowded, so the adventurous among them are setting out to conquer.

[Black Crow]

Why they would create Wights if they could create more of them?

Cheap and cheerful when numbers are required - there don't seem to be very many of the Red lot either.

[Urrax]

Basically we have an age old conflict, loosely defined as the Song of Ice and Fire, which according to Mel has been waged since time began. I say loosely because it isn't necessarily closely confined to those elements, but might be considered more abstractly. What we are seeing in Westeros is not just the onset of Winter but the awakening of the old powers. One of the big questions, and whether Summerhall is part of the answer or not, is what has awakened those old powers. Given that men represent the greatest threat to those powers it follows that they in turn need a window into the realms of men to observe and assess that threat.

Basically, we're seeing the awakening of Ice in Westeros, and the awakening of Fire in Essos, are we not?

[Black Crow]

That's hardly controversial, but I think where heresy comes into it is that we're looking at a broader context in which the white walkers appear, something in which they not an anomaly but rather the shock troops of something much bigger, encompassing all the old races and whether you view them in the end as good or bad, there is a point to what they're doing and why. They are something more than just a nameless horror from the north to provide an excuse for everybody, wolves and lions both, to pull together against them.

[King of Winters]

Hmm, while the will of Sauron certainly made them more evil, I don't think they were ever good or nice. The distinction between good and evil becomes rather murky if 'want to kill the goodies' (the elves, and men of the west) is not enough to be called evil.

The most important part was his will making them organise. Orcs left to their own devices would behave more like opportunists; they'd plunder a weakly defended city, kill stragglers in their lands... but they hardly would start a war with strong kingdoms unless pushed to do so. (i.e. not much worse than 'bad' humans)

That said, the Others as twisted humans doesn't mean they have to all be first-generation humans. Maybe some were turned during the Long Night (or turned to start it) and have just been breeding since? As Aemon says, ice preserves, so it's quite possible they don't breed overly fast and still manage to hold out. Maybe this whole Other invasion is just because the lands of Always Winter are getting a wee bit crowded, so the adventurous among them are setting out to conquer.

I'm not saying that the Others are exactly as the Orcs are, but they could give us a clue at to how they were made and maybe if there is something controlling them, or telling them what to do (e.g the Children).

I think that it's possible that the Others can breed, since there is the tale about the Night's King and his Other Queen. So I think there might have been female Others in the past, but I'm not sure about them living now, as the Others seem to be getting new babies from Craster. Or perhaps there are female Others and they use both Craster and the females.

[Associate Maester]

Why they would create Wights if they could create more of them?

I think this ties into the thread running through ASOIAF that all magic has a price and sacrifice is required. We've seen very few transformed individuals from the Red Lot too (Mel, Moqorro, probably Vic). There are inherent limitations to what you can do and what you can create. I think it likely a good percentage of the Red Lot that go through the ritual probably die. I imagine it could be the same for the Ice Lot. It maintains the balance.

[Wings]

Sorry to barge in on this topic. I've been reading a few heresies, but have to admit that it often moves too fast for me to keep up. I am, however, quite familiar with the Mabinogion and many northwest European myths, as well as history and archaeology of northwest Europe, so I hope to be able to join in, despite having missed hundreds of pages of discussion. If I repeat many things, I apologize, but it seems impossible to catch up to this running thread. :P

Once I opened a topic to suggest that the First Men were indeed The Others. They have been fighting (and are still fighting) north of the Wall.

There are two ways to look at the wights lying in waiting in front of the cave of the CotF: they are either guarding it or they are waiting for the CotF to come out of their hiding hole. Personally I do not think they are guarding the cave. If they are in league with the CotF, they would not have attacked Bran and his party. And even if they did, it would have been really easy for BR or the CotF to tell them to stop doing so. And this did not happen.

If the CotF created the WW and their undead minions, then they have lost control.

I think the CotF are not the nice, fairy-like beings as the Westerosi like to think. But I do not think they are the same as the WW, even though they are without a doubt connected somehow.

My guess still is that the WW are connected to the FM. They may even be the FM.

My original post:

Something that has been gnawing at the back of my mind is the lack of information we have about the Others. They have been in Westeros for a very long time, yet little seems to be known about them. We know a lot more about the CotF, who are a different race of people. We know about their language, their belief, their magic and weapons. We know about the First Men; where they came from, their traditions, their language. But somehow there is something missing. I cannot put my finger on it exactly, but it has to do with the lack of continuity. The language and knowledge of the runes is gone. There is a gap between the people now, even those who have the blood of the First Men, and the First Men themselves.

We are being told that the First Men and the CotF fought a long war. Suddenly, somehow, the Others joined the battle after a peace was negotiated between the First Men and the CotF. The Others came from nowhere and the FM en the CotF fight together. Just as they later do against the Andals, who pretty much take over the entire continent, driving both the FM and the CotF north. The Andals and FM mixed and now we have the people of Westeros.

I am not buying this sudden appearance of the Others and the sudden disappearance of the (culture of the) FM from history.

The CotF fight with obsidian - also against the FM. Obsidian happens to work magic against the Others.

The language of the FM is describes as a harsh language. The language of the Others is described as the cracking of ice. The cracking of ice sounds like a harsh language to me.

The FM ride to battle on horses. The Others have similarly been described as riding to battle on horses and other large animals. This has never been so explicitly stated for the CotF and the Andals or any other group of people.

The FM who survived the Andal invasion are called the Kings of Winter. Winterfell. Winter is coming. Is there only a connection to Winter just because they happened to be in the north?

And think about this: The Night's King, who is supposed to be a Stark, married one of the Others. How could they be together if they were human and Other? Unless the Others are the FM.

In this case, the Others may simply be a group of the FM who refused to accept the peace treaty with the CotF.

We know the FM practised some kind of human sacrifice. We know the Others accept human sacrifices. Are we to belief the Others are the Gods the FM worship? I doubt it. It has been made clear that the FM worship the gods of the CotF - the weirwood trees through which the greenseers watch the world.

There is another thing; the FM build the Wall. Why would you build a wall of ice to keep creatures of ice out? Sure, there's plenty of ice and snow in the north, but there's plenty of wood too. And stone, as there are plenty of mountains. Building a wall of ice to keep creatures of ice out would be like trying to capture dragons in a ring of fire.

Unless the FM were the same creatures as the Others and used their own 'ice magic' to build the Wall. It would also explain why there is a horn of Winter that could bring down the Wall belonging to the Wildlings, who are also connected to the FM.

To me it would make little sense to build a wall of ice to keep creatures of ice away, while at the same time creating a horn of winter to tear the ice wall down - unless the people keeping the creatures of ice away were creatures of ice themselves.

So why are the Others and the Westerosi different now? Because it's been thousands of years. The few FM south of the wall have married into Andal society and little is left of their original looks. The Wildlings are the same (they steal their wifes from south of the Wall).

The 'real' Others have retreated further north.

The Night's King's fault was not about him bedding a different species. It was about him being a traitor, breaching the treaty with the CotF. Remember how the First Men are all about honour and vows? The fact that he proclaimed himself king is a typical FM thing in the Age of Heroes.

I think that over time the FM and Others have been made different species to distinguish the goods ones from the bad ones. As the FM were 'Andalized' they created the gap between them and the Others and history did the rest.

I know it's not perfectly thought out yet. But I do belief that the lack of information about the Others is unnatural for a society that has been writing since the FM (their runes). So the information is there, but we just haven't made the right connection yet.

[Black Crow]

I think this ties into the thread running through ASOIAF that all magic has a price and sacrifice is required. We've seen very few transformed individuals from the Red Lot too (Mel, Moqorro, probably Vic). There are inherent limitations to what you can do and what you can create. I think it likely a good percentage of the Red Lot that go through the ritual probably die. I imagine it could be the same for the Ice Lot. It maintains the balance.

Its quite possible and I think what's significant here is that unlike Thoros, the two transformed priests, Mel and Moqorro started off as slaves; they didn't volunteer to undergo the ordeal. Victarion did of course, but being Ironborn he reckoned he was hard enough and anyway didn't understand what was really going to happen to him.

[Black Crow]

Sorry to barge in on this topic. I've been reading a few heresies, but have to admit that it often moves too fast for me to keep up. I am, however, quite familiar with the Mabinogion and many northwest European myths, as well as history and archaeology of northwest Europe, so I hope to be able to join in, despite having missed hundreds of pages of discussion. If I repeat many things, I apologize, but it seems impossible to catch up to this running thread. :P

Once I opened a topic to suggest that the First Men were indeed The Others. They have been fighting (and are still fighting) north of the Wall.

There are two ways to look at the wights lying in waiting in front of the cave of the CotF: they are either guarding it or they are waiting for the CotF to come out of their hiding hole. Personally I do not think they are guarding the cave. If they are in league with the CotF, they would not have attacked Bran and his party. And even if they did, it would have been really easy for BR or the CotF to tell them to stop doing so. And this did not happen.

If the CotF created the WW and their undead minions, then they have lost control.

I think the CotF are not the nice, fairy-like beings as the Westerosi like to think. But I do not think they are the same as the WW, even though they are without a doubt connected somehow.

My guess still is that the WW are connected to the FM. They may even be the FM.

Welcome to Heresy. You have some interesting ideas which should fit in pretty well with our happy little group, even if I can't agree that the First Men and the Others are one and the same. As you'll see by some of our recent and not so recent thinking there are good reasons to believe that the white walkers are indeed transformed humans, but transformed by the magic of the children, who never did fight shoulder to shoulder against the blue-eyed lads from the north.

Nor is there any reason to suppose that the children have "lost control" of them, because they are clearly up to something with this acquisition of a new greenseer and very conspicuous lack of any reference at all to where Craster's boys fit into the picture

[Black Crow]

I'm not saying that the Others are exactly as the Orcs are, but they could give us a clue at to how they were made and maybe if there is something controlling them, or telling them what to do (e.g the Children).

Yes I think the point here is that whatever their origin or the process involved in their creation, they are ultimately the servants of the Old Powers rather than something independent.