Heresy 64

[addicted to snow]

I've not got the maths skills to calculate he cubic volume of he wall, but if it all fell (for talking sake) to the north side, it's a considerable amount of ice and packed material that's going to be spread over a huge area. It's like a curtain of solidly built skyscrapers running for miles toppling over at once.

Would it flood the area? Or would it create a difficult to cross barrier of rock and ice?

I visualise the wall being breached by the horn or whatever thing is the tool to break it, not for the entire wall to go down in a finger click.

Without getting overly technical & incorperating the fugacity (for lack of better terms) of water molecules between the solid & liquid state, & assuming that the wall is 700 feet tall & 100 feet wide... The wall melting would be the equivalent of receiving 4" of rain for the strip of land 20 miles North & 20 Miles South of the wall, which would be a flood, but not so bad as the flooding associated with say a category III hurricane. This is assuming that it all melted at once - like within a day... If it melted slower, then the effects would be somewhat reduced.

If the wall dissipated by somewhat more magical means, I would also expect lessened effects...

In many of the Arya chapters, it has been strongly suggested / foreshadowed that she will be involved in a significant flood, lost @ sea, or something of this nature. Whether this speculated event will be associated with the wall, associated with another Hammer of the Waters, or associated with being lost at sea (perhaps lost in the smoking sea) is unknown to all but Martin. The foreshadowing always occurs in such a way as to suggest that she will survive this trial. On a side note, I think Arya's death might be foreshadowed in one of her first chapters in AGoTs - freezing to death (GRRM did say that AGoTs has the most 'meat' in it...)

Personally I am split between whether Arya's water-related foreshadowing will be associated with Valyria or with another Hammer of the Waters - this would be a 4th hammer of the waters if you assume the Bran the builder built a foundation for the wall & that the CotF provided the rest of the structure through freezing the 3rd Hammer of the Waters...

Edit, misspelled freezing...

[tbc]

It depends how narrowly you define humans, but essentially I'd say that there is now a very respectable school of thought here in Heresy that the white walkers are not born and bred as such but, but just as Mel, Moqorro and at least a part of Victarion have been transformed by magic into fire made flesh, so too the white walkers are humans transformed into ice made flesh.

Is it is possible that they're children glamoured or encased in ice?

[Black Crow]

Is it is possible that they're children glamoured or encased in ice?

Nah, I think they are physically too different - and not just in terms of size. Definitely human in origin, I'd say, but the children and the magic of the old powers are behind them. While its argued that the children represent life, that's not to preclude a necessary cleansing.

[tbc]

Nah, I think they are physically too different - and not just in terms of size. Definitely human in origin, I'd say, but the children and the magic of the old powers are behind them. While its argued that the children represent life, that's not to preclude a necessary cleansing.

That looks to be precisely what they've done and are doing, in various ways, to the Lands Beyond the Wall (Hardhome is an interesting case in that regard). It's clearly possible to exist beyond the wall in a more developed form of civilisation than exists for most, hence Thenn, Hardhome, and the evidence of other human settlements now destroyed.

If the children are behind the Others, it also suggests a very different meaning for the Last Hero story, in which the Children concede the North between the Neck and the Wall, in return for guaranteed power over the lands north of the wall.

Has the Gendel and Gorne story ever been discussed in Heresy? It's entirely plausible that Ygritte is relating folk memory of the Children when talking of Gendel getting lost in the caverns beneath the wall.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I'm one of the few (perhaps the only?) Heretics that thinks the Wall will stand.

hmmm... maybe part of the bittersweet is that they do end the threat posed by the White Walkers/wights, and thus eliminate the need for the Wall AND they discover that the Wall is the cause of all these other problems, but they can't bring it down? :dunno:

[Tyryan Lannister]

Has the Gendel and Gorne story ever been discussed in Heresy? It's entirely plausible that Ygritte is relating folk memory of the Children when talking of Gendel getting lost in the caverns beneath the wall.

interesting thought. First, we have "Gendel's children are always hungry"; and second, the whole point of the Gendel's children ending is that once you go into the caves, there is no coming out, which seems to echo what happens with those chosen as greenseers

EDIT: just woke up, not thinking clearly, grammatical and syntax errors

[tbc]

interesting thought. First, we have "Gendel's children are always hungry"; and second, the whole point of the Gendel's children ending is that once you go into the caves, there is no coming out, which seems to echo what happens with those chosen as greenseers

EDIT: just woke up, not thinking clearly, grammatical and syntax errors

Also, it reinforces the idea that, in folk memory, the Children aren't benevolent allies at all. The caves are part of the natural world into which the Children have retreated, and they aren't a comfortable or friendly environment for humans.

[Lord Flashheart]

Sorry to use Heresy like a small questions thread, but the answers I get here always intrigue me. Lately I have been pondering the Hooded Man theories, and I was wondering what the heretical POV was on this? I currently subscribe to the Theon Durden theory, mostly due to the odd nature of the conversation Theon has with him, but was wondering if there was any strong feelings on who it could be.

[my other dog is a wolf]

A little off the current topic, but going back to a quick discussion up thread of Dany's dream of riding a dragon to the Trident, meeting the Usurper's host armored all in ice, and bathing them in dragonfire so that they melted away turning the Trident into a torrent. I recently reread this chapter and I agree that it doesn't have anything to do with an event in Westeros. Instead it is inspiration for her actions the next day.

In summary, prior to having this dream, Dany has promised to sell Drogon to the Astapori slavers to get the entire 10K unsullied and then frets about this agreement into the evening (I take this to mean she has not decided on a course of action). During the night she has the dream about the Trident. The next day, she rides with her ragged 'host' along Astapor's meandering river imagining what a her Targaryen banner (such as Rhaegar would have borne) should look like and arrives at the Plaza of Punishment. Upon giving the chain attached to Drogon to Kraznys and his declaration "It is done," Dany thinks again to Rhaegar at the Trident and how he must have felt just before she shouts "It is done. Your are mine." Then she thinks "It is time to cross the Trident," she sings out "Dracarys" and the Atapori slavers are bathed in dragonfire and the Plaza of Punishment blew apart in blood and chaos. I think the allegorical connections are pretty obvious?

[Black Crow]

Very much so and another reason why I think that the culmination of all this will not be the expected apocalyptic battle on the Trident, but the Fall of the Wall - not as a prelude to invasion and said battle, but as the main event.

[wolfmaid7]

hmmm... maybe part of the bittersweet is that they do end the threat posed by the White Walkers/wights, and thus eliminate the need for the Wall AND they discover that the Wall is the cause of all these other problems, but they can't bring it down? :dunno:

With the Wall down,and the population of man a little smaller( I'm sorry but a lot of people need to die) i'd say things would be on track for returning to a state o equilibrium.

[my other dog is a wolf]

With the Wall down,and the population of man a little smaller( I'm sorry but a lot of people need to die) i'd say things would be on track for returning to a state o equilibrium.

And maybe that is the true purpose of the Others/WW and their wights? To reduce population numbers sort of like an epidemic disease (think the Black Death (bubonic plague) in Europe - some recent research suggests that human health and longevity in western Europe actually increased after the initial pop decrease) - although the Others/WW & co. would have to reach pretty far south in Westeros before having much of an impact on population size.

I totally buy into the idea of the SoIaF bringing things back into equilibrium. My question is why now? What has tipped the scales, so to speak, to bring the return of the WW, which we have before dragons (and the return of the two seem related)?

The Andals broke the Pact that the FM had with the CotF at least 1,500 yrs ago, if not 6-8k yrs ago. Incest (an abomination in the eyes of the gods says Ygritte) had been key to Targaryen power structure during their reign of Westeros, but they have been gone for 14 years at the start of aGoT. So I puzzle over what transgression or event has brought the old powers back into action? Any thoughts...or has this already been discussed (if so, perhaps theories could be summarized?).

[Urrax]

...So I puzzle over what transgression or event has brought the old powers back into action? Any thoughts...or has this already been discussed (if so, perhaps theories could be summarized?).

It's just my own take on this, but I think that whatever happened (and went wrong) at Summerhall is what kicked off the revival of the old powers. But I can't offer any evidence.

[Black Crow]

Raking over some of the stuff discussed in the last few pages a couple of interesting thoughts occurred to me.

As we've noted Qhorin Halfhand was anxious to warn Mormont that the Old Powers were wakening and in the last Jon chapter of CoK sent Stonesnake off to find him:

"Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again."

My emphasis there. Not only is he warning Mormont of what's going on but he also needs to know that Jon is a warg.

Now as to the "old powers", note how he links giants and wargs and worse. As it happens we know that the giants are actually splitters, but both wargs "and worse" - presumably Craster's boys - are lumped together as agents of the old powers. And then we have the trees having eyes again, which brings the children into the equation. Its all very consistent.

OK this is just Qhorin Halfhand, but on the other hand he is a very experienced veteran ranger and might be thought to know what he's talking about. He is also the one who earlier commented that "The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men...and the Starks."

We've spoken about that last remark before but on re-reading the chapter I noticed something else. Jon Snow didn't volunteer to go with Qhorin. as the Old Bear's steward he meets Qhorin on his arrival, leads him to Mormont and provides light refreshments, but other than confirming that he is indeed Benjen Stark's nephew and has a wolf, he takes no part in the discussions until the moment when Mormont agrees that Qhorin should lead a small ranging party into the Frostfangs, and the Halfhand looks at Jon Snow and says, I'll take him. Jon Snow, who has never been beyond the Wall before is his first and indeed immediate choice.

There's something about the Starks that Qhorin (and almost certainly Mormont) knew...

[Black Crow]

The second thought that occures to me concerns the children, and the way Qhorin implicitly links them to the "worse".

There's that popular belief that they are friends to all mankind, who stood shoulder to shoulder against the white walkers back in the day and will teach Bran how to defeat the blue-eyed ice demons this time around as well. As heretics we've also noted that there is absolutely no evidence in the text that men and the children were ever allies, but I'd like to suggest it goes further than that.

Maester Luwin's history tells us that they and men fought each other until the Pact and then lived in amity until the coming of the Andals. we're also told that some of the First Men gave up their original gods and took up worship of the children's secret gods of the woods. All of this sounds very cosy, especially when we factor in the annual gift of dragonglass during the Age of Heroes, but... As we've discussed many times the 100 pieces of dragonglass given each year corresponds to the 100 kingdoms of men and might more accurately be interpreted as tribute paid by a conquered people rather than a gun-running operation.

So take that away, and note how those 100 kingdoms stood alone against the white walkers and their armies of the dead during the Long Night, and how the 13 heroes searched for them in vain for years on end, before the last hero was helped (saved?) from his pursuers.

Now look at what else we've got?

In contrast to the "legend" of benevolent children there's an awful lot of negative stuff like Gendel's children - and that story comes from north of the Wall; its not an Andal fairy tale about snarks and grumkins

[Urrax]

The second thought that occures to me concerns the children, and the way Qhorin implicitly links them to the "worse"....

The Children are pretty clearly modeled on the Tuatha Dé Danann, are they not? Who after being defeated by the invaders agreed to live underground in the mounds or "sidhe" of Ireland, whence they themselves came to be called "sidhe." They became the fairy folk of Irish legend, and are by no means always friendly to man.

[Joe Pine]

Without getting overly technical & incorperating the fugacity (for lack of better terms) of water molecules between the solid & liquid state, & assuming that the wall is 700 feet tall & 100 feet wide... The wall melting would be the equivalent of receiving 4" of rain for the strip of land 20 miles North & 20 Miles South of the wall, which would be a flood, but not so bad as the flooding associated with say a category III hurricane. This is assuming that it all melted at once - like within a day... If it melted slower, then the effects would be somewhat reduced.

If the wall dissipated by somewhat more magical means, I would also expect lessened effects...

In many of the Arya chapters, it has been strongly suggested / foreshadowed that she will be involved in a significant flood, lost @ sea, or something of this nature. Whether this speculated event will be associated with the wall, associated with another Hammer of the Waters, or associated with being lost at sea (perhaps lost in the smoking sea) is unknown to all but Martin. The foreshadowing always occurs in such a way as to suggest that she will survive this trial. On a side note, I think Arya's death might be foreshadowed in one of her first chapters in AGoTs - freezing to death (GRRM did say that AGoTs has the most 'meat' in it...)

Personally I am split between whether Arya's water-related foreshadowing will be associated with Valyria or with another Hammer of the Waters - this would be a 4th hammer of the waters if you assume the Bran the builder built a foundation for the wall & that the CotF provided the rest of the structure through freezing the 3rd Hammer of the Waters...

Edit, misspelled freezing...

Cheers. Haven't picked up on the Arya stuff.

[Black Crow]

The Children are pretty clearly modeled on the Tuatha Dé Danann, are they not? Who after being defeated by the invaders agreed to live underground in the mounds or "sidhe" of Ireland, whence they themselves came to be called "sidhe." They became the fairy folk of Irish legend, and are by no means always friendly to man.

Treat them with respect and you're ok, otherwise...

[Urrax]

Treat them with respect and you're ok, otherwise...

Precisely. Plus, they're not above carting you off to their world if they want or need something from you.

[wolfmaid7]

Treat them with respect and you're ok, otherwise...

I agree with this statement.There is a saying that people remember whats important because it suits them.Man has fallen into this category and they have disrespected the old races and continue to do so.First you make sure that the terms of the pact greatly benefits you,then you transgress what you agree to.

Honestly,the more i read ADWD the more i was impressed with Jon's maturity. This guy grew up where stories about Wildlings and Giants made the hair on your neck stand up.Yet,he has shown willingness to learn from these same groups and treat them with respect regarding their ways.Despite older men on the wall antagonism against the giants,wildlings and wargs he sought and understanding with them.

5 stars for being a cultural anthropologist.