Heresy 64

[I know I know]

Let me just add: Snow, if he is a warg at all, is pretty weak.

Compare to Bran or Arya - the children for whom the Stark blood of their father seems to dominate most. Arya seems able to (vaguely) direct a host of wolves. Bran, of course, needs no explanation. Arya dreams Nymerias hunts, much as does Snow (who, again, is dominated by the Starky bits of his heritage), much as does Bran.

Compare to Sansa and Robb - who really never show any sign of a direwolf bond deeper than a deep affinity for a pet, and have no dreams. The redheaded Tully-types just love their animals, there's no evidence of anything weir.

I think the Tullys are Andal. When the bloods mix, you tend to get Stark-types or Tully-types, and the Tully-types are Andal, with little sense of connection to the old gods.

[addicted to snow]

Let me just add: Snow, if he is a warg at all, is pretty weak.

Compare to Bran or Arya - the children for whom the Stark blood of their father seems to dominate most. Arya seems able to (vaguely) direct a host of wolves. Bran, of course, needs no explanation. Arya dreams Nymerias hunts, much as does Snow (who, again, is dominated by the Starky bits of his heritage), much as does Bran.

Compare to Sansa and Robb - who really never show any sign of a direwolf bond deeper than a deep affinity for a pet, and have no dreams. The redheaded Tully-types just love their animals, there's no evidence of anything weir.

I think the Tullys are Andal. When the bloods mix, you tend to get Stark-types or Tully-types, and the Tully-types are Andal, with little sense of connection to the old gods.

I concur...

I think that the Maternal Theory was born by readers who assume that R+L=J & yet subconsciously seek to minimize R's contributions.

[I know I know]

I concur...

I think that the Maternal Theory was born by readers who assume that R+L=J & yet subconsciously seek to minimize R's contributions.

it does lend some more substance to the N + L = J stuff, doesn't it...

GRRM always asks the question "who is Jons mother" when he goes into Sphinx mode. He never asks about the dad.

[I know I know]

it does lend some more substance to the N + L = J stuff, doesn't it...

GRRM always asks the question "who is Jons mother" when he goes into Sphinx mode. He never asks about the dad.

Holy cow. I just wondered something - maybe Others can only arise from not just Stark blood, but Stark incest? Old gods are supposed to see incest as an abomination, maybe it's actually necessary?

[Toccs]

Compare to Sansa and Robb - who really never show any sign of a direwolf bond deeper than a deep affinity for a pet, and have no dreams. The redheaded Tully-types just love their animals, there's no evidence of anything weir.

Robb was definitely having the wolf dreams. That is most likely how he knew about the secret mountain pass that Grey Wind found. There is also an exchange somewhere between him and Catelyn in which Catelyn tells him to "do something like a wolf" in that Westerosi way and Robb angrily replies "I am not a wolf." Which is almsot identical to the way Jon thinks about his wolf dreams early on when he is still rejecting them.

[I know I know]

Robb was definitely having the wolf dreams. That is most likely how he knew about the secret mountain pass that Grey Wind found. There is also an exchange somewhere between him and Catelyn in which Catelyn tells him to "do something like a wolf" in that Westerosi way and Robb angrily replies "I am not a wolf." Which is almsot identical to the way Jon thinks about his wolf dreams early on when he is still rejecting them.

An army under the command of Robb Stark circumvented the Golden Tooth and the passage it blocks by using a dangerous mountain path, found by his direwolf, Grey Wind. King Robb leads his army into the Westerlands and descends upon a Lannister host, annihilating them at Oxcross, three days ride from Lannisport.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Golden_Tooth

I don't recall this part verbatim - did the wolf help Robb by Robb dreaming of being the wolf?

[Toccs]

I don't recall this part verbatim - did the wolf help Robb by Robb dreaming of being the wolf?

We are never told. But given that GRRM has confirmed that all the Stark kids are/were wargs and the "I am not a wolf comment" from Robb (I'll try and find the exact quote), I think it's pretty likely that Robb learned of it via a wolf dream.

To put it in perspective, The Golden Tooth has been a nigh inpenetrable fortification for the northern entrance to the Westerlands for centuries because it guards the only path in. That's how secret this passage that Grey Wind found is, it's never been used.

So if Grey Wind found it while hunting, how did Robb learn about it? Was there a Lassie/Skippy/Flipper moment where Grey Wind told him about it? Or did Robb have a dream the night before where he was in Grey Wind's body while he was hunting around in the woods, the same way Jon found Mance's camp in the Frostfangs.

[Lord Ravenstark]

We are never told. But given that GRRM has confirmed that all the Stark kids are/were wargs and the "I am not a wolf comment" from Robb (I'll try and find the exact quote), I think it's pretty likely that Robb learned of it via a wolf dream.

To put it in perspective, The Golden Tooth has been a nigh inpenetrable fortification for the northern entrance to the Westerlands for centuries because it guards the only path in. That's how secret this passage that Grey Wind found is, it's never been used.

So if Grey Wind found it while hunting, how did Robb learn about it? Was there a Lassie/Skippy/Flipper moment where Grey Wind told him about it? Or did Robb have a dream the night before where he was in Grey Wind's body while he was hunting around in the woods, the same way Jon found Mance's camp in the Frostfangs.

If it was Robb that found through the direwolf it would not be "found by his direwolf"... IMO.

Let me just add: Snow, if he is a warg at all, is pretty weak.

Compare to Bran or Arya - the children for whom the Stark blood of their father seems to dominate most. Arya seems able to (vaguely) direct a host of wolves. Bran, of course, needs no explanation. Arya dreams Nymerias hunts, much as does Snow (who, again, is dominated by the Starky bits of his heritage), much as does Bran.

Compare to Sansa and Robb - who really never show any sign of a direwolf bond deeper than a deep affinity for a pet, and have no dreams. The redheaded Tully-types just love their animals, there's no evidence of anything weir.

I think the Tullys are Andal. When the bloods mix, you tend to get Stark-types or Tully-types, and the Tully-types are Andal, with little sense of connection to the old gods.

Bran is red-haired blue-eyed, not black-haired grey-eyed.

[Toccs]

If it was Robb that found through the direwolf it would not be "found by his direwolf"... IMO.

Who found Mance's camp, Ghost or Jon?

[I know I know]

Bran is red-haired blue-eyed, not black-haired grey-eyed.

Right you are! I stand corrected, this fact IMHO undermines my line of reasoning thoroughly. This is what happens when you look at the character as played in the TV show, and let your recollection of the book character be influenced by it.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Who found Mance's camp, Ghost or Jon?

The wolf, but he knew what he (actually he was told) is. Robb's case would've been different like "I saw in my dreams", not "found by his direwolf."

The wolf lead them to the passage.

[Urrax]

Also, it's worth pointing out that:

1. greensight seems to be directly correlated with CotF admixture. All of the greenseers are implied to have child ancestry. I don't think there are any exceptions.

....

Where is this implied about Bran (and hence all the Stark children)?

[ophie]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Quite_a_Few_Questions

Q: Are all the Stark children wargs/skin changers with their wolves?

A: To a greater or lesser degree, yes, but the amount of control varies widely.

Q:Yes I know that Lady is dead, but assuming they were all alive and all the children as well, would all the wolves have bonded to the kids as Bran and Summer did?

A:Bran and Summer are somewhat of a special case.

[alienarea]

Holy cow. I just wondered something - maybe Others can only arise from not just Stark blood, but Stark incest? Old gods are supposed to see incest as an abomination, maybe it's actually necessary?

Maybe Jon's mother was the force(*)?

(*) known as Melisandre in Westeros

[Driphtwood]

Interesting, perhaps - but what's the magic in the Tully bloodline, then? The Starks seem deeply magical, but they are Starks through the male line; maybe Eddard is also through the female line (I don't remember if his mother is ever specified, but it's certainly implied she's northern... and northern women have a decent chance of being Stark-blooded women), but it seems unlikely Catelyn Tully is.

In regards to the wildling magic, it does seem a stronger link. So this perhaps leaves a question: why are the Starks male-inherited magical, while the Wildlings have magic inherited through the female line? (As an aside, if Caster is special in his sacrificing HIS sons, that also seems male-inherited magic)

If the story of Bael the Bard is true, then all the of current Stark descendents would technically be from the female line of Starks. Adding to further support the importance of the female lineage over the male lineage, as well as explaining the current Stark generations greensight and warging abilities without involving Cat.

[Toccs]

The wolf, but he knew what he (actually he was told) is. Robb's case would've been different like "I saw in my dreams", not "found by his direwolf."

The wolf lead them to the passage.

Unless when questioned Robb simply said "Grey Wind found it" which in context with his later (angry) "I am not a wolf" statement is consistent with the actions of someone in denial about their Warging abilities. In fact it's almost word for word what Bran and then Jon go through

[Tyryan Lannister]

Maybe Jon's mother was the force(*)?

(*) known as Melisandre in Westeros

Damn you and that theory :cool4: :cheers:

[Tyryan Lannister]

Unless when questioned Robb simply said "Grey Wind found it" which in context with his later (angry) "I am not a wolf" statement is consistent with the actions of someone in denial about their Warging abilities. In fact it's almost word for word what Bran and then Jon go through

Although, from what we can tell, largely due to his childish "innocence", Rickon never goes through it, and Arya seems to embrace having a "second life" as the Night Wolf--and then there's her whole cat thing

[Toccs]

Although, from what we can tell, largely due to his childish "innocence", Rickon never goes through it, and Arya seems to embrace having a "second life" as the Night Wolf--and then there's her whole cat thing

Which is why I only drew parallells between Robb and Jon (and to an extent Bran), who's experiences with the early stages of warging all seem remarkably similar.

That Arya, Rickon and Sansa (due to lack of Direwolf) all experience and embrace these early stages differently, does not detract from the similarities between Robb's experiences and Jon/Bran's.

[Black Crow]

Its worth bearing in mind here the difference between a warg and a skinchanger. Brain's not yet engaged so I don't remember who says it, but a warg has a special bond with his or her familiar. There is a part of the warg in the wolf and a part of the wolf in the warg; which is why the arrival of the direwolves was necessary to trigger the process of essentially turning the Stark kids into werewolves.

Just how much of each goes into the other may well vary. At one end of the scale Lady was described as being soft and gentle like Sansa, while at the other end Rickon has more than his fair share of lupine savagery about him. Jon, well as we've discussed before, his savage rages are much more likely down to his being a werewolf than they are to any supposed blood of the dragon.

Bran "is a special case" because Bran isn't a warg linked to a single wolf, but is a skinchanger and greenseer