Heresy 64

[Wings]

But if the dragons are the servants of fire, like the Others are the servants of ice, then should dragons not have been created the same?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that the Valyrians learned how to tame the dragons through magic, rather than create them. That's a huge difference!

It may be that the Others are, through magic means may be controlled by for example the CotF, but I have my doubt. The ones that are being controlled by magic as servants of ice are the wights.

[Black Crow]

But if the dragons are the servants of fire, like the Others are the servants of ice, then should dragons not have been created the same?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that the Valyrians learned how to tame the dragons through magic, rather than create them. That's a huge difference!

It may be that the Others are, through magic means may be controlled by for example the CotF, but I have my doubt. The ones that are being controlled by magic as servants of ice are the wights.

Nah, the theory is that the white walkers are not the equivalent of the dragons, but of the Red prioests like Mel and Moqorro.

[Wings]

That only moves my question. :P

The Red priests are priests of R'hllor - a God.

Where is the ice God? Are they represented by the CotF? But they are said to worship the old Gods (plural).

If the CotF have created the ice priests (for lack of a better word), who started creating the fire priests?

[King of Winters]

That only moves my question. :P

The Red priests are priests of R'hollor - a God.

Where is the ice God? Are they represented by the CotF? But they are said to worship the old Gods (plural).

If the CotF have created the ice priests (for lack of a better word), who started creating the fire priests?

What I think is that there's fire magic and ice magic.

The fire magic is named R'hllor and is worshipped by the Red Priests, and the ice magic is the Old Gods and worshipped by the First Men.

I don't think there are any gods in ASOIAF.

[Wings]

It still moves the question around. ;)

If there are no Gods and the CotF have created the ice priests/WW, then who created the red priests? Where do they come from? Asshai, sure, but who created them if they are not completely human (anymore)?

[King of Winters]

It still moves the question around. ;)

If there are no Gods and the CotF have created the ice priests/WW, then who created the red priests? Where do they come from? Asshai, sure, but who created them if they are not completely human (anymore)?

The fire magic is probably slowly turning them into flesh made fire Priests, like the ice magic turning the First Men into Others.

[Urrax]

FWIW, to clarify an earlier discussion: In Tolkien (the Silmarrilion, not LotR), as best I recall without looking it up, the Orcs were the work of Morgoth, who bred them from a pack of disobedient Elves. In Tolkien's world, only the One can create; evil cannot create anything, it can only turn good to bad.

[Tyryan Lannister]

But if the dragons are the servants of fire, like the Others are the servants of ice, then should dragons not have been created the same?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that the Valyrians learned how to tame the dragons through magic, rather than create them. That's a huge difference!

But we still don't know where the dragons came from in the first place. Yes, it looks like the Valyrians did not create them--but who/what did? Was it just a "natural" evolution from the seemingly "natural" firewyrms that are known to have prowled the Fourteen Flames? Or did someone learn how to "control" the firewyrms and transform them into above-the-ground firebombers? And then beyond that comes the question of how the hell did these shepherds come across the necessary magics to control a dragon? There are just as many questions (if not more) about the origin of the dragons and the Valyrian relationship with them as there are First Men, Children, and White Walker questions about connections.

[Tyryan Lannister]

FWIW, to clarify an earlier discussion: In Tolkien (the Silmarrilion, not LotR), as best I recall without looking it up, the Orcs were the work of Morgoth, who bred them from a pack of disobedient Elves. In Tolkien's world, only the One can create; evil cannot create anything, it can only turn good to bad.

Yeppers. Only Eru Iluvatar can create, and everything that is created/manipulated/destroyed was preordained during the initial Songs sang by the Valar and Ainur (before they became such) were sung (during which time Melkor, who would become Morgoth but had as yet to do so, began incorporating his own harmonies and dissident counter-melodies into the Songs, which is where all the preordained conflict and destruction of Middle-Earth comes from).

As to GRRM, while he is definitely familiar with and influenced by Tolkien in general and presumably some of the things from the Legendarium such as the above, I feel that the extent of his taking from this particular part of Tolkien-lore is the use of a Song as a description for the overarching history of a world, and that it pretty much ends there (see: GRRM on lack of godly presence in ASOIAF)

Nah, the theory is that the white walkers are not the equivalent of the dragons, but of the Red prioests like Mel and Moqorro.

Yep, with the Dragons possibly being analogous to the direwolves--however, there is also the question of how the greenseers and the weirwoods fit in. I would say that more so than the direwolves being the opposite to the dragons, it is actually the greenseers/weirwoods; three reasons for this: one, apparently the only way to truly kill a weirwood is with fire; we know that High Heart, bearing the presumably still living stumps of a grove of weirwoods, is able to block out fire magic; and we have, via the now postponed World Book*, the fact that Brandon Snow, the bastard brother of King Torrhen, the King who Knelt, wanted to be allowed to attack the dragons with weirwood arrows--possible he knew of something about weirwood vs dragons that we are as of yet unfamiliar with. As to the greenseers, they are sort of the "brains" behind the operation of the weirwoods, so I would say that in general, all that applies to a weirwood applies to a greenseer.

EDIT: forgot to put in the footnote

*For more info, check out a post from Martin in the Not-a-Blog; essentially, the World Book as originally intended appears to have been scrapped, and instead in its place will be a Legendarium heavily influenced by the structure and style of Tolkien's Silmarillion which has been given the working title of GRRMarillion.

[Urrax]

,,,As to GRRM, while he is definitely familiar with and influenced by Tolkien in general and presumably some of the things from the Legendarium such as the above, I feel that the extent of his taking from this particular part of Tolkien-lore is the use of a Song as a description for the overarching history of a world, and that it pretty much ends there (see: GRRM on lack of godly presence in ASOIAF)...

Agreed.

[Urrax]

...For more info, check out a post from Martin in the Not-a-Blog; essentially, the World Book as originally intended appears to have been scrapped, and instead in its place will be a Legendarium heavily influenced by the structure and style of Tolkien's Silmarillion which has been given the working title of GRRMarillion.

Yes, and now it's (quoting GRRM's post) "some years down the pike." Dammit, some of us would like to read the finale before we die!

[Wings]

Just throwing in some thoughts of mine that came up on reading the replies here:

We tend to see the dragons as animals, but what if we should see them as people. The Targaryens do, after all, call themselves dragons. They are of the blood of the dragon, like the Starks are from the blood of the First Men (Others?). They both possess magical talents and are respectively linked to fire and ice.

What if the dragons are just another sentient species in aSoIaF, like the CotF and the WW/FM?

The CotF, producing greenseers, could simply be beings who observe the balance of nature. Not necessarily good, but neither evil.

The CotF are obviously up to something, but I find it hard to believe that they are the 'evil' force behind the WW and the wights. This thought leads to a battle against humans, with the red priests of R'hllor indeed defending the humans against the Great Other who seeks to destroy them. And I thought this topic was a heresy. ;)

Also: how does the battle between the Drowned God and the Storm God fit into all of this? Storm is air, the Drowned God would be water, the CotF are earth and the dragons/red priests are fire. Where do the Others fit in? Ice is water turned to 'stone' (earth). Winter brings storm (air). It doesn't make sense to me...

[Lord Ravenstark]

Just throwing in some thoughts of mine that came up on reading the replies here:

We tend to see the dragons as animals, but what if we should see them as people. The Targaryens do, after all, call themselves dragons. They are of the blood of the dragon, like the Starks are from the blood of the First Men (Others?). They both possess magical talents and are respectively linked to fire and ice.

What if the dragons are just another sentient species in aSoIaF, like the CotF and the WW/FM?

The CotF, producing greenseers, could simply be beings who observe the balance of nature. Not necessarily good, but neither evil.

The CotF are obviously up to something, but I find it hard to believe that they are the 'evil' force behind the WW and the wights. This thought leads to a battle against humans, with the red priests of R'hllor indeed defending the humans against the Great Other who seeks to destroy them. And I thought this topic was a heresy. ;)

Also: how does the battle between the Drowned God and the Storm God fit into all of this? Storm is air, the Drowned God would be water, the CotF are earth and the dragons/red priests are fire. Where do the Others fit in? Ice is water turned to 'stone' (earth). Winter brings storm (air). It doesn't make sense to me...

Dragons are animals, they aren't sapient.

[Black Crow]

I think the most important point in considering these things is to get away from the assumption that the Others - and I use the term widely in the sense of all the Old Races and their servants - are Evil. They are not on the side of light and fire but that doesn't make them evil; both they and the Rhlloristas look like being bad for mankind; both being mad bad and dangerous to know, but dismissing one side as evil is I think completely missing the point.

Namely that there is indeed an age old conflict between Ice and Fire, and that what's happening in Westeros right now is not that a mysterious race is wantonly coming down out of the Ice with murder in their bright blue eyes but that the Old Powers are awakening to reclaim the land.

[Urrax]

...Namely that there is indeed an age old conflict between Ice and Fire, and that what's happening in Westeros right now is not that a mysterious race is wantonly coming down out of the Ice with murder in their bright blue eyes but that the Old Powers are awakening to reclaim the land.

An age-old conflict, yet they are both essential and must balance each other out. They are Yin and Yang, Matter (ice) and Energy (fire).

[Black Crow]

Exactly so, which is why both must be checked and the balance restored, rather than that one needs to defeat the other. A victory by Fire over Ice would be just as disastrous as the other way around; and its also the biggest factor to rule out Jon as a candidate for Azor Ahai, since AA is the champion of Fire.

[Wings]

Dragons are animals, they aren't sapient.

I am currently moving, so do not have clear access to my books, but the wiki page of the AA theory says:

• The prophecy was originally made by dragons, who are neither male or female, meaning Azor Ahai reborn may not necessarily be a man.

Was the prophecy truly made by dragons or is this a mistake that crept into the wiki pages?

I think the most important point in considering these things is to get away from the assumption that the Others - and I use the term widely in the sense of all the Old Races and their servants - are Evil. They are not on the side of light and fire but that doesn't make them evil; both they and the Rhlloristas look like being bad for mankind; both being mad bad and dangerous to know, but dismissing one side as evil is I think completely missing the point.

I agree - there is no good and evil (which is why I wrote 'evil'). But reading heresy 64 gives me the feeling that such a thing has somehow crept into the theory.

The CotF seem to be in league with the Others, who are used to cleanse lands north of the Wall from pesky humans - or so I would summarize the latest discussion here. There seems to be an 'evil' side there - at least from a human point of view.

I do not think the CotF have something against humans in general, though I do not believe they are good-hearted fairies.

The thing I keep falling over is this idea that the CotF control the Others and through them the wights. If the CotF are the power behind ice, why are they connected to earth and forests? And what is the power behind fire?

It seems to me that ice has a distinct advantage over fire going by the current discussion (as I understand it from reading these last 20 pages). Namely that they have both the larger numbers and different sentient species to form an army with: undead creatures, the Others, the CotF, the wargs and greenseers vs three dragons and three (?) fire demons fighting with a human army in the name of R'hllor. Assuming that humans who get killed will turn into wights to join the Others' army, it seems fire doesn't stand a chance. Which can hardly aid in restoring balance - a thing I agree will most likely be the outcome of aSoIaF.

So please enlighten me. ;) What am I missing?

And then there's the Drowned God. I find it very strange so much attention is given to him (through the Greyjoys and Patchface). He is not just (from) another religion, but a force of nature too, I think.

[King of Winters]

Exactly so, which is why both must be checked and the balance restored, rather than that one needs to defeat the other. A victory by Fire over Ice would be just as disastrous as the other way around; and its also the biggest factor to rule out Jon as a candidate for Azor Ahai, since AA is the champion of Fire.

Well Jon's a balance of Ice and Fire being a Stark (ice) and Targ (fire). So he could be the one to balance them out.

[Black Crow]

Well Jon's a balance of Ice and Fire being a Stark (ice) and Targ (fire). So he could be the one to balance them out.

Its certainly possible and far more likely than that he will be the champion of Fire.

What's also worth considering here is that if we do take it that R+L=J then there is a precedent in Bloodraven; he too is the son of a Targaryen father and one of the old families, in his case through nurture and eventually perhaps the very fact of being on the Wall it is his Blackwood blood which has brought him into the service of the Old Powers. Similarly while Jon may have Targaryen blood, we've been arguing for some time that its the Stark blood which will win out as a son of Winterfell rather than as a son of Valyria.

[Black Crow]

And with that, I bid you all continue the discussion in Heresy 65, opening now.