Did the Old Gods punish Robb Stark?

[The Great Walrus]

Are any gods really real? Book or not... What is a traditional deity. Even in real life people worship some crazy things. To each his own though.

I was using the Judeo-Christian model of a god, an all powerful, omnipresent deity that always know's whats happening in the world.

[Vengeance]

GRRM has made it plain we will never meet any of the gods worshipped in the stories - omnipotent beings like R'hllor aren't real, they're just explanations for magical manifestations that people have mythologised into being.

[Frozentree]

Confirmed to exist by whom and where?

By Bloodraven and Children of the Forest in ADWD, not going to look for specific quote.

[RumHam]

I think the old gods are just the weirwoods and whatever collective consciousness/memory thing they have going on. It's almost like praying to your ancestors.

The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they

had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and

limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers,

everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old

gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood.”

[Frey Pie]

Where does it say that Robb married in a seven ceremony? AFAIK that was purely a show thing, and i cant imagine the first King of the North in 300 years marrying in anything but a Northern ceremony

[Vengeance]

By Bloodraven and Children of the Forest in ADWD, not going to look for specific quote.

What? The CoTF are the original worshippers of the Old Gods, nothing they say can be taken as confirmation of anything. They are believers. There is clearly something going on with the weirwood trees, but there's nothing to suggest they have any sort of sentience, let alone that they're living deities capable of manipulating events.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Said to death but: Old gods have no power in the south, all the weirwoods we're cut down. And the northerners have married southerners plenty of times.(Ned/Cat!!!!)

This Op is ridiculous.

[RumHam]

Where does it say that Robb married in a seven ceremony? AFAIK that was purely a show thing, and i cant imagine the first King of the North in 300 years marrying in anything but a Northern ceremony

It does not, it's an assumption people make based at least in part on the mistaken belief that having a weirwood heart tree is an anomaly in the south. It's not as if northerners consider marriages invalid if they are preformed by a septon, so it could have gone either way but it's never mentioned.

Said to death but: Old gods have no power in the south, all the weirwoods we're cut down. And the northerners have married southerners plenty of times.(Ned/Cat!!!!)

This Op is ridiculous.

I don't think the old gods have much power anywhere other than the power of observation. All the weirwoods weren't all cut down in the south.

[Frozentree]

What? The CoTF are the original worshippers of the Old Gods, nothing they say can be taken as confirmation of anything. They are believers. There is clearly something going on with the weirwood trees, but there's nothing to suggest they have any sort of sentience, let alone that they're living deities capable of manipulating events.

RumHam provided the quote. I will give you another one, from Varamyr prologue, to prove that what is said in the quote really happens.

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood,

gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman

danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both

were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the

clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a

hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground,

earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything

that’s in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great

elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at

empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly,

and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself.

That was his last thought as a man.

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters

of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind

him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave

[Buried Treasure]

Where does it say that Robb married in a seven ceremony? AFAIK that was purely a show thing, and i cant imagine the first King of the North in 300 years marrying in anything but a Northern ceremony

A septon would be more likely to be found within half a days ride of the Crag than a weirwood. The latter is not impossible, but it does not seem a good bet given what we know of the south.

And how would the Old Gods know what to punish Robb for, as they have no eyes in the South? If anything I'd say their only presence around Robb was Grey Wind, if he really is their instrument. And the wolf was still loyal to Robb which would indicate that he retained the favour of the gods.

[Vengeance]

RumHam provided the quote. I will give you another one, from Varamyr prologue, to prove that what is said in the quote really happens.

At most that implies the 'Old Gods' are wargs/greenseers of old who warged into the trees on their death and part of them lived on. They aren't Gods in any real sense, they can't manipulate events in the world and they are limited to what they see through the weir trees. They certainly won't be punishing people for breaking the laws of hospitality or kinslaying or whatever else.

[Frey Pie]

It does not, it's an assumption people make based at least in part on the mistaken belief that having a weirwood heart tree is an anomaly in the south. It's not as if northerners consider marriages invalid if they are preformed by a septon, so it could have gone either way but it's never mentioned.

I don't think the old gods have much power anywhere other than the power of observation. All the weirwoods weren't all cut down in the south.

A septon would be more likely to be found within half a days ride of the Crag than a weirwood. The latter is not impossible, but it does not seem a good bet given what we know of the south.

Seen as its never said, its hard to say. However, the Northmen are fairly religious, and likely wouldnt stand for a Southern wedding. I would think it likely that they said the words, perhaps infront of a septon, but not the usual words of a sevens marriage, and planned to have a proper marriage infront of a heart tree when the war allowed it. In addition does it say they married at the Crag? Perhaps they did it at Raventree Hall on the journey back

[RumHam]

Seen as its never said, its hard to say. However, the Northmen are fairly religious, and likely wouldnt stand for a Southern wedding. I would think it likely that they said the words, perhaps infront of a septon, but not the usual words of a sevens marriage, and planned to have a proper marriage infront of a heart tree when the war allowed it. In addition does it say they married at the Crag? Perhaps they did it at Raventree Hall on the journey back

As many people have pointed out, Ned was also married in a southern ceremony and there's no indication that he and Cat redid it for real once they got to Winterfell, or that any northerners woudn't stand for it. As for Robb the book says he married Jeyne the day after boning her. I dunno how far Raventree Hall is but if it's more than a day's ride that's out. (I assume you mention Raventree because of it's weirwood, but I'll say again I think most castles in the south have weirwood heart trees, including The Crag.)

[Frozentree]

At most that implies the 'Old Gods' are wargs/greenseers of old who warged into the trees on their death and part of them lived on. They aren't Gods in any real sense, they can't manipulate events in the world and they are limited to what they see through the weir trees. They certainly won't be punishing people for breaking the laws of hospitality or kinslaying or whatever else.

I did say they are not omnipotent and this is out of their limit, did you read every other sentence of what I wrote? Not every god is like the Christian God, many polytheistic religions have gods who actually have little power and still are called gods. The old gods not only know, but they can also share what their knowledge, so I think they classify as gods.

[RumHam]

I did say they are not omnipotent and this is out of their limit, did you read every other sentence of what I wrote? Not every god is like the Christian God, many polytheistic religions have gods who actually have little power and still are called gods. The old gods not only know, but they can also share what their knowledge, so I think they classify as gods.

It's also worth considering that we don't know what the Children of the Forest or even the First Men called them, because no one wrote it down. The "old gods" is presumably what the Andals decided to call them. The Children might not have considered them "gods" in the same sense that the Andals did.

[Frey Kings]

Punish? No

Turn their backs? Yes

[Pero the first of His name]

When the leech thing was done R`hllor told on Robb to the old gods about Jeyne certain that old gods would kill him, thus granting the wish of his fans on Dragonstone.

JK, i see it like this

No, gods are not real. Magic is real and is explained simply through 'gods', but gods as the people of Westeros think of them are not real.

[Vengeance]

I did say they are not omnipotent and this is out of their limit, did you read every other sentence of what I wrote? Not every god is like the Christian God, many polytheistic religions have gods who actually have little power and still are called gods. The old gods not only know, but they can also share what their knowledge, so I think they classify as gods.

Yes but my point is thus: they are worshipped as gods, people pray to them as gods in the hope they will intervene in their every day lives, there is the belief that the Old Gods punish oathbreakers/guest right violators/kinslayers etc - this is all false. The Old Gods, as they are worshipped, do not exist. Like I said originally, the westerosi religions are just explanations for magical manifestations that were mythologised into being over time - in the case of the Old Gods, it appears to be the souls of wargs living in the weirwood trees. No doubt there's a similarly more mundane explanation at the heart of the R'hllor religion.

[Leif]

Punish? No

Turn their backs? Yes

This.

[Vengeance]

This.

And what does 'turning their backs' amount to? Sod all