A note on the Tyrion being a targ theory.

[rystine]

There is no need to explain Tywin reason to not kill Tyrion if he was not his son.

He would still be a Lannister and kinslayers are cursed, Tywin may be a practical man but there is nothing in his character that makes us thinks he would break such taboo.

A taboo that wasnt broken by people with cold blood like

Victarion Greyjoy

Roose Bolton

The taboo on kinslaying is not something to be broken lightly, which makes Tyrion a doomed character, even if he was a secret Targ, Tywin was his kin.

Yes, because Tywin would never want to commit or advocate the breaking of a social taboo/law like kinslaying or breaking guest right. Oh wait. . .

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Maybe something like, "Daenerys. Her name is Daenerys".

Yea probably.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Yes, because Tywin would never want to commit or advocate the breaking of a social taboo/law like kinslaying or breaking guest right. Oh wait. . .

He didn't break guest right. He let Frey do the dirty work and break guest right. Now the Freys are getting all the hate.

[Light a wight tonight]

He isn't a Targ <_<

Why in gods name would George ruin such a deliciously twisted, complex, unstable, father son relationship between Tywin and Tyrion?

The whole idea is cheap, watered down and destroys the very essence of the Tyrion-Tywin complexity

Your Best Post Ever.

[DavosSeaworthy]

He isn't a Targ.

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

[lojzelote]

Ned was an actual father figure to Jon, even if Jon finds out about R+L=J he'd still see Ned as his true father. They don't have a messed up, twisted, dark relationship based on pure loathing and refusal to accept the truth.

But Tywin and Tyrion do, the main complexity of their father-son relationship is the fact that Tyrion is more like Tywin than Jaime could ever be. Why would George abandon such a pivotal part of Tyrion's arc just to throw in another secret Targ?

I still don't see it. I mean, how would it change Tyrion's stance towards Tywin (who likely believed that Tyrion was his biological son)? Why is it even important since Tywin is dead and he and Tyrion will never get to interact again? Would it bleach the parts of Tyrion's brain in which he carries Tywin's lessons? Would it make Tyrion's pain over the Tysha incident and the years of being demeaned go away from the man who should have loved him? Would it stop him from wanting to get a revenge on Cersei and Jaime? Would it stop him from wanting the lordship of the Casterly Rock? And ironically, it would make Tywin unknowingly justified in withholding from Tyrion what Tyrion felt was his birthright, albeit not in years of emotional abuse. So I don't see how it would make anything easier for Tyrion. Tyrion's feelings towards Tywin would remain complex, twisted and dark. Years of emotional trauma won't go away just because it turned out that the person who caused it was not his biological father, nor would it take away what Tywin had taught him; Tywin left his mark upon Tyrion no matter what, the blood in his veins be damned.

Tyrion's character resembling Tywin's does not neccessarily prove that they are father and son. The nurture is part of it and as far as the nature part is concerned, they have common ancestors anyway, Joanna having been born a Lannister. And someone has to ride those dragons. Truthfully,I never thought much of this theory before, but the new information from The Princess and the Queen made me reconsider. I'm still not sold, but I certainly wouldn't claim it's a silly theory.

[Teal'c]

He isn't a Targ <_<

Why in gods name would George ruin such a deliciously twisted, complex, unstable, father son relationship between Tywin and Tyrion?

The whole idea is cheap, watered down and destroys the very essence of the Tyrion-Tywin complexity

Well struck! :agree:

[The Red Hand]

Killing second cousins doesn't seem to count as kinslaying since nobody calls Robert kinslayer for killing Rhaegar. So I don't think Tyrion and Tywin would be close enough blood kin for it to count as kinslaying.

Wasn't kinslaying brought up when Robb beheaded Lord Karstark? I think 2nd or 3rd cousins counts. Good point about Robert and Rhaegar, would that mean Robert's kingdom was doomed to fail?

@lojzelote

Very good points, I've thought the same but you expressed it more eloquently than I could.

[Riptide]

Wasn't kinslaying brought up when Robb beheaded Lord Karstark? I think 2nd or 3rd cousins counts. Good point about Robert and Rhaegar

I think Lord Karstark was just trying to mess with Robb, I mean, everyone's kin if you go back far enough.

I don't think Tyrion is Aerys' son, but it wouldn't ruin the relationship between him and Tywin. If someone does y while thinking x, it does not matter whether x is true or false, because doing y was independent of the truth; it was only dependent on thinking x.

[Wouter]

But Tywin and Tyrion do, the main complexity of their father-son relationship is the fact that Tyrion is more like Tywin than Jaime could ever be. Why would George abandon such a pivotal part of Tyrion's arc just to throw in another secret Targ?

What some readers considers pivotal may not be considered pivotal by the author. If tyrion is a bastard of aerys, he is not just another secret targ (jon is the only other one anyway, aegon is fake), he was then planned that way from the start. Tyrion becoming a dragonrider was telegraphed in from almost the moment we first met him in agot.

[Pikachu101]

What some readers considers pivotal may not be considered pivotal by the author. If tyrion is a bastard of aerys, he is not just another secret targ (jon is the only other one anyway, aegon is fake), he was then planned that way from the start. Tyrion becoming a dragonrider was telegraphed in from almost the moment we first met him in agot.

So George would destroy a complex, pivotal, intricate, messed up, twisted, complicated relationship between Tywin and Tyrion just to make him a pointless bastard for a prophecy that he doesn't even need to be a Targ for?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Maybe he isnt a targ, or could be idk its up to GRRM, but I would love to see him ride a dragon whether targ or not

[Lannister Hamster]

I think Tyrion is a targ but it'll never be revealed in the story. It will enable him to be a dragon rider, those who read between the lines will be able to understand why he can, the majority of readers won't and it won't make a difference.

[NoneofYourBiz]

What some readers considers pivotal may not be considered pivotal by the author. If tyrion is a bastard of aerys, he is not just another secret targ (jon is the only other one anyway, aegon is fake), he was then planned that way from the start. Tyrion becoming a dragonrider was telegraphed in from almost the moment we first met him in agot.

Two points: one, we don't know that Aegon is fake. Many THINK Aegon is fake, but we dont know that he is. Two, I think, clues have been scattered about to indicate that you may not need to be a Targaryen to be a dragon rider. I believe GRRM even said this. So for those who are convinced that Tyrion must ride a dragon, I think there are indications that he can without being a secret Targ. That being said, I would be disappointed to see him riding one. I just don't think it fits his character. Tyrion's powers lie in that brain of his, not as a warrior.

I am in the camp that believes Tyrion being a secret Targ cheapens the Tywin dynamic that was so compelling in the books. I also think any evidence of him being a Targ is flimsy at best. Secret identities are a favorite ploy of GRRMs (along with "I'm not dead yet!") but i just dont see the narrative purpose of Tyrion being anything but a Lannister.

[Wouter]

So George would destroy a complex, pivotal, intricate, messed up, twisted, complicated relationship between Tywin and Tyrion just to make him a pointless bastard for a prophecy that he doesn't even need to be a Targ for?

That a "complex, pivotal, intricate, messed up, twisted, complicated relationship" between Tywin and Tyrion would be destroyed by him turning out to be aerys bastard is an idea some readers are fixated upon. It is not necessarily an objective truth or an idea that is shared by the author.

Aegon being fake (allthough likely being a blackfyre so still potential dragonrider) has also been telegraphed in since the house of the undying. The new novella "the princess and the queen" points again to a necessity of having valyrian blood to being a dragonrider, something which doesn't conflict with Georges statement in the ssm.

[corbon]

Since I am really ignorant about this topic, I'd like to ask..

What evidence supports the Tyrion is a Targ theory?

Is it the mismatched eyes?

Because the 'Aerys took liberties at Tywin's wedding' is an incident during Tywin's wedding...there is no hint that there was a liaison between Joanna and Aerys after that. And Tyrion was born long after Tywin's wedding.

Minerva, the evidence is quite a long list, though none of it is individually strong. Collectively, who knows? Well, the haters 'know', but offer only irrational spite, not evidence.

1. Tyrion's hair. Its white-blonde, not golden, far closer to Targaryen colour (indeed, most Targs would be described as 'white-blonde' unless theirs is particualrly 'metallic', and quite definitely not the Lannister colour. People argue that so is Tommens, and they are right, but Tommen is just a child and chidlren's hair is often lighter when they are young. The other Lannisters are quite conclusively golden.

- conclusion? Could be something, could be nothing, can't say for sure either way.

2. Tyrion's eyes. There is one other character in the seres who has mismatched eyes... a Targaryen Bastard by the name of Shiera Seastar.

- conclusion? Coincidence? Could be, hard to tell.

3. Joanna and Aerys. Yes, that quote about the wedding incident is clearly not related directly to Tyrion, as he wasn't conceived for many years afterward. But it is part of a consistent set of data which tells us that Aerys loved Joanna and would have married her, but married Rhaella as it was his duty. This ponts toward the possibility, of an affair, willing or not on Joanna's part (we have later evidence Aerys was not above taking a woman by force). There is no data at all to rule this out - it would have happened before Aerys nailed himself to the Red Keep (after Duskendale), while Tywin was Hand of the King. There is also no further datapointing to this - we just have that Aerys had a thing for Joanna, and no hingt that a connection between them would be difficult, let alone impossible. Not that this is not using absence of disproof as evidence for - the evidence for, very weak, but there, is that Aerys had a thing for Joanna. But as a standard response was immediately "thats physically impossible, one is in CL, the other KL, and Tywin would never let it happen", its become standard to refute that little piece of irrational footstomping before it gets off the ground.

Conclusion? No conclusion. Just that its not impossible, and would in fact match to some known data, so not be completely out of the blue if GRRM goes this way.

4. Many many small hints in the text about Tyrion being a king, or casting the shadow of a King or similar - which as a Lannister he has zero connection to Kingship. As a Targ Bastard, he at least his a tenuous one.

Conclusion - too weak to mean anything, but could be used as pointers if GRRM does use this theory.

5. Tyrion's unusual connection with Dragons. He has had Dragon dreams - something the Targs were noted for, and the only other characters to have had Dragon dreams so far are Jon (1/2 Targ if R+L=J) and Shirreen (full Targ great-grandmother). He also tells Jon he used to dream of burning Cersei with Dragonfire. He also asked his uncle for a pet dragon. He also has read just about everything every written on Dragons and is possibly one of the foremost authorities in the world (if unrecognised). He also has an unusual reaction to the dragon skulls under the Red Keep, feeling them as welcoming, as opposed to Arya and others, who feel them creepy. There's an interesting allusion there to dragons and fire and blood, or something similar (shadows?, power?), when he has sex with Shae in amongst them, IIRC, but I can't recall the details.

Counter-argument - well, so would any young boy. It means nothing!

Conclusion - this is a very strong hint, probably the strongest. But not definitive. True, so 'could' any young boy. But Tyrion is the only character who has all these things, he's the only young boy we are told of that does/did have these dreams.

6. Moquorro's vision - Tyrion and many dragons of all types, him amongst them. That could equally be read as him the not-dragon, and as him being one of the dragons.

Conclusions - can't form one from this as it could go either way equally.

7. Tywin's actions and statements. Clearly Tywin doesn't know Tyrion is not his, or Tyrion would be dead for sure (accidentally, at birth). But he may suspect. That would perfectly match his actions. He can't do anything directly against Tyrion, as that would do three things - i) confirm to the world that Joanna cuckolded him (making him a laughing stock, the one thing he hates above all else), ii) make him a kinslayer if his suspicions were wrong, and iii) remove the last hint of Joanna from his life. So instead he acknowledges Tyrion is his son, but refuses to give him his due as his son. The only times he allows Tyrion any power, or acknowledges Tyrion as his son (to Tyrion) is when he needs something from Tyrion. And he discards him as soon as possible afterwards. Its the opposite for Jaime, who is given everything and denied only when he defies his father.

There are lots of counters to this, but in the end it all can goes either way quite consistently (nurture tends to be conveniently ignored as need by the haters).

Conclusion - wait and see. Both ways work. Note that this works whether the theory is true or not.

8. The two characters Tyrion seems to get on best with? Jon and Aemon.

Conclusion - less than nothing in terms of meaning, but... interesting.

9. What do Jon, Tyrion and Dany have in common? Mothers who died birthing them, and, maybe Targaryen fathers?

Conclusion - does not mean he must be a Targ. But... interesting...

10. Oh, I almost forgot, the delightfulling charming note that Tyrion likes his bacon "burned black", and lots of peppers in his food.

Conclusion - nothing, but... if=then, cool hint!

There is also the duality of Jaime killing Tyrion's father, and Tyrion killing Jaime's father, and the 'out' that this would give GRRM on his favourite character's actual kinslaying. But of course, haters get all irrational about this too, as if their personal reactions and desires are the only possible route GRRM could take.

Personally I'm not convinced either way - I vacillate between 10-50% on any given day for this theory. But one only has to read the irrational diatribe against it to see that most people shelve their brains (if they indeed had any) at the door when it comes to this theory.

Note also that I've said nothing about Tyrion being a dragonrider, or third head of the dragon, or anything of that kind.

Wait and see...

[Rhymes with Weak]

It's not a theory that Tyrion is a targ, it's a fantasy conjured up by his fans who want a dwarf to ride a dragon.

[corbon]

It's not a theory that Tyrion is a targ, it's a fantasy conjured up by his fans who want a dwarf to ride a dragon.

Minerva, you see? Irrational diatribe.

[Pikachu101]

It's not a theory that Tyrion is a targ, it's a fantasy conjured up by his fans who want a dwarf to ride a dragon.

Just like Jon fans think characters would believe R+L=J, Arya fans think she'll become QitN, Sansa fans think she'll become a warrior queen, Elia fans think Aegon's the real deal etc.

I really don't like it when people think of terrible plots just to fulfil their fantasies of what should happen to their favourites

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Minerva, the evidence is quite a long list, though none of it is individually strong. Collectively, who knows? Well, the haters 'know', but offer only irrational spite, not evidence.

1. Tyrion's hair. Its white-blonde, not golden, far closer to Targaryen colour (indeed, most Targs would be described as 'white-blonde' unless theirs is particualrly 'metallic', and quite definitely not the Lannister colour. People argue that so is Tommens, and they are right, but Tommen is just a child and chidlren's hair is often lighter when they are young. The other Lannisters are quite conclusively golden.

- conclusion? Could be something, could be nothing, can't say for sure either way.

2. Tyrion's eyes. There is one other character in the seres who has mismatched eyes... a Targaryen Bastard by the name of Shiera Seastar.

- conclusion? Coincidence? Could be, hard to tell.

3. Joanna and Aerys. Yes, that quote about the wedding incident is clearly not related directly to Tyrion, as he wasn't conceived for many years afterward. But it is part of a consistent set of data which tells us that Aerys loved Joanna and would have married her, but married Rhaella as it was his duty. This ponts toward the possibility, of an affair, willing or not on Joanna's part (we have later evidence Aerys was not above taking a woman by force). There is no data at all to rule this out - it would have happened before Aerys nailed himself to the Red Keep (after Duskendale), while Tywin was Hand of the King. There is also no further datapointing to this - we just have that Aerys had a thing for Joanna, and no hingt that a connection between them would be difficult, let alone impossible. Not that this is not using absence of disproof as evidence for - the evidence for, very weak, but there, is that Aerys had a thing for Joanna. But as a standard response was immediately "thats physically impossible, one is in CL, the other KL, and Tywin would never let it happen", its become standard to refute that little piece of irrational footstomping before it gets off the ground.

Conclusion? No conclusion. Just that its not impossible, and would in fact match to some known data, so not be completely out of the blue if GRRM goes this way.

4. Many many small hints in the text about Tyrion being a king, or casting the shadow of a King or similar - which as a Lannister he has zero connection to Kingship. As a Targ Bastard, he at least his a tenuous one.

Conclusion - too weak to mean anything, but could be used as pointers if GRRM does use this theory.

5. Tyrion's unusual connection with Dragons. He has had Dragon dreams - something the Targs were noted for, and the only other characters to have had Dragon dreams so far are Jon (1/2 Targ if R+L=J) and Shirreen (full Targ great-grandmother). He also tells Jon he used to dream of burning Cersei with Dragonfire. He also asked his uncle for a pet dragon. He also has read just about everything every written on Dragons and is possibly one of the foremost authorities in the world (if unrecognised). He also has an unusual reaction to the dragon skulls under the Red Keep, feeling them as welcoming, as opposed to Arya and others, who feel them creepy. There's an interesting allusion there to dragons and fire and blood, or something similar (shadows?, power?), when he has sex with Shae in amongst them, IIRC, but I can't recall the details.

Counter-argument - well, so would any young boy. It means nothing!

Conclusion - this is a very strong hint, probably the strongest. But not definitive. True, so 'could' any young boy. But Tyrion is the only character who has all these things, he's the only young boy we are told of that does/did have these dreams.

6. Moquorro's vision - Tyrion and many dragons of all types, him amongst them. That could equally be read as him the not-dragon, and as him being one of the dragons.

Conclusions - can't form one from this as it could go either way equally.

7. Tywin's actions and statements. Clearly Tywin doesn't know Tyrion is not his, or Tyrion would be dead for sure (accidentally, at birth). But he may suspect. That would perfectly match his actions. He can't do anything directly against Tyrion, as that would do three things - i) confirm to the world that Joanna cuckolded him (making him a laughing stock, the one thing he hates above all else), ii) make him a kinslayer if his suspicions were wrong, and iii) remove the last hint of Joanna from his life. So instead he acknowledges Tyrion is his son, but refuses to give him his due as his son. The only times he allows Tyrion any power, or acknowledges Tyrion as his son (to Tyrion) is when he needs something from Tyrion. And he discards him as soon as possible afterwards. Its the opposite for Jaime, who is given everything and denied only when he defies his father.

There are lots of counters to this, but in the end it all can goes either way quite consistently (nurture tends to be conveniently ignored as need by the haters).

Conclusion - wait and see. Both ways work. Note that this works whether the theory is true or not.

8. The two characters Tyrion seems to get on best with? Jon and Aemon.

Conclusion - less than nothing in terms of meaning, but... interesting.

9. What do Jon, Tyrion and Dany have in common? Mothers who died birthing them, and, maybe Targaryen fathers?

Conclusion - does not mean he must be a Targ. But... interesting...

10. Oh, I almost forgot, the delightfulling charming note that Tyrion likes his bacon "burned black", and lots of peppers in his food.

Conclusion - nothing, but... if=then, cool hint!

to 4)

The only times there are references for him to 'stand as tall as a king' are in AGOT, when Tyrion is with Jon.

to 6)

Dragons of many types and Tyrion among them.

There will be at least one red dragon, a suspected black dragon, 3 actual dragons and a lot of gold dragons involved in Tyrion's coming story arc.

to 9)

So did Edmure's mother (and I believe a few of the late Lady Frey's), he must be a secret Targaryen!!!

to 10)

Everyone in Dorne likes spicy food...

But most of the evidence brought forward for this theory, is wishful thinking and a lot of hope.

I just can't understand, why people want to destroy the beautifully twisted relationship between Tywin and Tyrion.

The fact, that those two have more in common than Tywin and his two other children combined, yet Tywin loathes Tyrion for being a dwarf.

"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years,"