Why the hate for Robb Stark?

[Batbob45]

I don't hate him but being his father's son and marrying Jeyne and his other mistake is what got him kill.

[Boarsbane]

Thats the exact opposite of what actually happens in the books.

You're essentially saying that he was the underdog, and since he lost it means he was always going to lose, but you're only looking at the final end, but disregarding how it came about.

Tywin Lannister didn't beat Robb Stark. Two poor decisions beat Robb Stark.

Balon choosing inevitable defeat, and Rodrik pulling a stupid and taking the garrison of the most important castle in the north to save one of the least important ones.

A pirate decided not to go for the mountains of gold, and the man whom alongside Eddard Stark, taught and trained the military prodigy of the books, Robb Stark decided to lose his mind temporarily and pull a move that Joffrey threatened to enact.

You can't make this shit up.

Tywin Lannister had no hand in any of that.

If Lysa Arryn decided to ensure her sons best standing by helping his most likely allies, the end result would probably be very different.

If Robert never found a boar, but came home grumpy and irritated, the story would be vastly different.

Tywin was gifted with victory, via the stupidity of others.

Every single one of Robb's major victories can be attributed to the stupidity of others, with a little help from his magic plot device.

[Bryden Tully]

Every single one of Robb's major victories can be attributed to the stupidity of others, with a little help from his magic plot device.

Battle of Oxcross? That was pretty much down to Robb, and Greywind :D

[Boarsbane]

Battle of Oxcross? That was pretty much down to Robb, and Greywind :D

And "Uncle Dolt" not posting any sentries

[Bryden Tully]

And "Uncle Dolt" not posting any sentries

In all fairness he had a mountain on one side and the Golden Tooth on the other, he didn't need to post sentries. It's wrong to discredit someone on the basis of there enemy making a minor mistake

[The Bedding]

The whole point of the alternative marriage was that it was bad, never understand why people think Robb should of somehow got Margaery. He didn't marry Jeyne out of stragetic value-he did it because it was honourable. It's stupid to criticize robb for not banging someone of more worth

Exactly. But, it's what Kings do for their realm. And Robb didn't do what Kings do. As a result, he simply didn't survive the Game of Thrones.

[The Frosted King]

Every single one of Robb's major victories can be attributed to the stupidity of others, with a little help from his magic plot device.

Jaime got played at the WW, but it fit his established character.

Stafford should've been safw, but he also should've taken no chances. Robb didn't even before he came south.

But Stafford apparently wasn't a bright man. So it makes sense.

Rodrik pulling the garrison of the most important seat in the north, to save Torrhen's Square is like Janos Slynt taking the goldcloaks to save a small castle on Cracklaw Point.

He's the master at arms of Winterfell!

The competency it takes to get that position is totally opposite the stupidity of the choices he actually made.

Balon took on the realm ten years ago. He burned the Lannister fleet to the bottom of the bay.

Now he's terrified of Tywin Lannister?

Silly characterization was all over ACOK.

Should've titled it A Clash of Dingbats.

[The Bedding]

Since Robb wanted Jeyne so much, maybe he should have abdicated the throne to Jon immediately. He should have pulled Jon off the wall and said you have to marry a Frey girl, lead an army, oh yeah...and deal with your stepmom's nagging for a while. I believe Jon would have still done an amazing job. Jon knew he had to do his duty, despite his love for Ygritte, and he saved The Wall (so far), because he knew his duty. If you're not going to do your duty, then give someone else the job. I remain a Robb Stark fan though.

[Frey Pie]

Since Robb wanted Jeyne so much, maybe he should have abdicated the throne to Jon immediately. He should have pulled Jon off the wall and said you have to marry a Frey girl, lead an army, oh yeah...and deal with your stepmom's nagging for a while. I believe Jon would have still done an amazing job. Jon knew he had to do his duty, despite his love for Ygritte, and he saved The Wall (so far), because he knew his duty. If you're not going to do your duty, then give someone else the job. I remain a Robb Stark fan though.

Jon hasn't shown the talent for leading men that Robb has. Yet. But he might

And robb could never abdicate for Jon. There are several people in line for the throne before him. Robb took his kingship very seriously and made one selfish move

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

Every single one of Robb's major victories can be attributed to the stupidity of others, with a little help from his magic plot device.

not really no one expected robb to broker an alliance with walder frey allowing him to pass the twins. jaime wasn't stupid he was just arrogant and wasn't expecting any sort of trap. now ser stafford not posting sentries was a stupid decision but robbs victory at the whispering wood and the battle of the camps can't be attributed to the stupidity of others.

[The Bedding]

Jon hasn't shown the talent for leading men that Robb has. Yet. But he might

And robb could never abdicate for Jon. There are several people in line for the throne before him. Robb took his kingship very seriously and made one selfish move

Jon hasn't shown the talent for leading men..........?!!?

And isn't Jon the heir to the throne per Robb's decree?

[Maid So Fair]

Every single one of Robb's major victories can be attributed to the stupidity of others, with a little help from his magic plot device.

Recognising and successfully exploiting the mistakes and stupidity of others is IMHO one of the most important attributes of a good strategist. Everyone makes mistakes, being ready to act when your enemies do is what gives you an edge.

[Frey Pie]

Jon hasn't shown the talent for leading men..........?!!?

And isn't Jon the heir to the throne per Robb's decree?

Not to the same level as Robb. Robb led 18000 northmen in battle. He was so charismatic and such a good leader the Riverlands swore their allegiance to him and proclaimed him king. Jon has done very well but accomplishments are not to the same level

I actually forgot that Bran and Rickon are supposed to be dead by the time Robb and Jeyne meet

[JoeyBanana]

Thats the exact opposite of what actually happens in the books.

You're essentially saying that he was the underdog, and since he lost it means he was always going to lose, but you're only looking at the final end, but disregarding how it came about.

Tywin Lannister didn't beat Robb Stark. Two poor decisions beat Robb Stark.

Balon choosing inevitable defeat, and Rodrik pulling a stupid and taking the garrison of the most important castle in the north to save one of the least important ones.

A pirate decided not to go for the mountains of gold, and the man whom alongside Eddard Stark, taught and trained the military prodigy of the books, Robb Stark decided to lose his mind temporarily and pull a move that Joffrey threatened to enact.

You can't make this shit up.

Tywin Lannister had no hand in any of that.

If Lysa Arryn decided to ensure her sons best standing by helping his most likely allies, the end result would probably be very different.

If Robert never found a boar, but came home grumpy and irritated, the story would be vastly different.

Tywin was gifted with victory, via the stupidity of others.

The stupidity of others or in other words, the circumstances that led to his hopeless situation. Theon, Balon, Rodrick, Stannis, Karstark, Catelyn, Lysa, Edmure all made bad decisions. Yes, if all those hadn't been stupid or self-serving, he would've had a chance. But they were and he couldn't change it. His two mistakes, trying to ally with Balon and Walder Frey were acts of desperation because he needed their help to win.

To clarify, his defeat was inevitable because he was never going surrender his crown to Stannis or any Lannister (and thus never going to get Sansa back). The North and Riverlands as an indepent kingdom would still have to fight King Joffrey/Tommen and the Tyrells, the Ironborn, possibly Stannis, The Others (without Stannis?) and the wildlings (again, without Stannis?). All that with men like Roose Bolton and Walder Frey as allies.

You can't honestly believe he stood a chance against these odds.

[Maid So Fair]

The stupidity of others or in other words, the circumstances that led to his hopeless situation. Theon, Balon, Rodrick, Stannis, Karstark, Catelyn, Lysa, Edmure all made bad decisions. Yes, if all those hadn't been stupid or self-serving, he would've had a chance. But they were and he couldn't change it. His two mistakes, trying to ally with Balon and Walder Frey were acts of desperation because he needed their help to win.

To clarify, his defeat was inevitable because he was never going surrender his crown to Stannis or any Lannister (and thus never going to get Sansa back). The North and Riverlands as an indepent kingdom would still have to fight King Joffrey/Tommen and the Tyrells, the Ironborn, possibly Stannis, The Others (without Stannis?) and the wildlings (again, without Stannis?). All that with men like Roose Bolton and Walder Frey as allies.

You can't honestly believe he stood a chance against these odds.

I think he was actually doing pretty well and definitely had a chance to actually achieve something but that stopped the moment he accepted to become the King in the North and the Riverlands. Unlike the North with the Neck, the Riverlands are practically indefensible, surrounded as they are by his enemies and too close to KL for the King on the IT to truly be able to afford to leave them independent. It also severely limited his options in terms of alliances, especially with Renly. But of course, he had little choice in the matter when his bannermen started calling for him to assume the crown. The Ironborn are easily routed once the North stirs in ADWD and there is nothing that Stannis did at the Wall that Robb could not.

[Frey Pie]

The stupidity of others or in other words, the circumstances that led to his hopeless situation. Theon, Balon, Rodrick, Stannis, Karstark, Catelyn, Lysa, Edmure all made bad decisions. Yes, if all those hadn't been stupid or self-serving, he would've had a chance. But they were and he couldn't change it. His two mistakes, trying to ally with Balon and Walder Frey were acts of desperation because he needed their help to win.

To clarify, his defeat was inevitable because he was never going surrender his crown to Stannis or any Lannister (and thus never going to get Sansa back). The North and Riverlands as an indepent kingdom would still have to fight King Joffrey/Tommen and the Tyrells, the Ironborn, possibly Stannis, The Others (without Stannis?) and the wildlings (again, without Stannis?). All that with men like Roose Bolton and Walder Frey as allies.

You can't honestly believe he stood a chance against these odds.

Robb would never have knelt to a Lannister but he did offer them terms for peace.

It's truly unknown whether or not Robb would have knelt to Stannis. Had stannis declared sooner Robb might have never been crowned or denied the wishes of his vassals to become king. I actually think if stannis had won the Blackwater and taken KL there is a very high chance of Robb kneeling as long as he gets back sansa and the Lannisters are punished/finished off.

[The Bedding]

If there was no need to have an actual wedding at the twins for Edmure and whats-her-face, why would there be a red wedding? You could argue that for Robb's planned marriage with the Frey girl there would also be a Red wedding, but it was a royal marriage so I doubt anyone would have accepted to be at a castle so lowly as the twins.

Good point. But I don't think the Freyes would have had a Red Wedding event at the rightful Robb/Frey wedding, because the wedding would have meant a Frey becoming at least Queen in the North.

[Grimbold]

Not to the same level as Robb. Robb led 18000 northmen in battle. He was so charismatic and such a good leader the Riverlands swore their allegiance to him and proclaimed him king. Jon has done very well but accomplishments are not to the same level

Of course they're not at the same level. Jon is a man of the night's watch, not the head of a 20.000 men army.

[JoeyBanana]

I think he was actually doing pretty well and definitely had a chance to actually achieve something but that stopped the moment he accepted to become the King in the North and the Riverlands. Unlike the North with the Neck, the Riverlands are practically indefensible, surrounded as they are by his enemies and too close to KL for the King on the IT to truly be able to afford to leave them independent. It also severely limited his options in terms of alliances, especially with Renly. But of course, he had little choice in the matter when his bannermen started calling for him to assume the crown. The Ironborn are easily routed once the North stirs in ADWD and there is nothing that Stannis did at the Wall that Robb could not.

I agree. Though i doubt he would have abandoned the Riverlands and Edmure without the crown. He was deliberately forced to defend his uncle's lands for that very same reason.

The Ironborn and wildlings would have made him to divide his troops even more. Add to that Stannis looking for a way "to show strength" and since Robb would be at the wall, he couldn't do that anymore and may have decided to invade the vulnerable North or even attack Robb directly. But that's all just speculation at this point, i'll admit.

[JoeyBanana]

Robb would never have knelt to a Lannister but he did offer them terms for peace.

It's truly unknown whether or not Robb would have knelt to Stannis. Had stannis declared sooner Robb might have never been crowned or denied the wishes of his vassals to become king. I actually think if stannis had won the Blackwater and taken KL there is a very high chance of Robb kneeling as long as he gets back sansa and the Lannisters are punished/finished off.

His peace offer was not serious. It wasn't acceptable for Tywin and he knew that.

You forget that he's a Stark. He's the guy who married a girl he'd slept with in order to not dishonor her. He'd do the same and more for his bannermen. They'd certainly feel betrayed if he'd just return to being a Lord. They wanted their own kingdom. No way Robb would ever kneel to Stannis.