Frey Pie Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Of course they're not at the same level. Jon is a man of the night's watch, not the head of a 20.000 men army. My point precisely. It's not a dig at jon,just the facts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bedding Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Of course they're not at the same level. Jon is a man of the night's watch, not the head of a 20.000 men army.Yes. But the real point I was trying to make pertained to personal wants and duty. Jon made the choice to continue his duty and his responsibility to his people over his relationship with Ygritte, and it saved the Wall. Robb chose Jeyne and it lost the North. That should balance things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitering Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 The only real problem I have with him is accepting the whole King of the North thing, and running with it. Marrying Jeyne is a teenage mistake, the King thing is really, really, really stupid. I know some short sighted Northerners thrust it on him, but it does not mean he had to accept it. He could have totally had a Stannis or Renly alliance if he just dropped the King nonsense. Having said all that, he was a pretty nice kid in the books, I am not a hater, but the King thing is a monumentally stupid thing that continues to bug me. He'd probably still be dead no matter what though, because he was always going to marry Jeyne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Rod Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 The only real problem I have with him is accepting the whole King of the North thing, and running with it. Marrying Jeyne is a teenage mistake, the King thing is really, really, really stupid. I know some short sighted Northerners thrust it on him, but it does not mean he had to accept it. He could have totally had a Stannis or Renly alliance if he just dropped the King nonsense. Having said all that, he was a pretty nice kid in the books, I am not a hater, but the King thing is a monumentally stupid thing that continues to bug me. He'd probably still be dead no matter what though, because he was always going to marry Jeyne. Yes, he could've had an alliance with Stannis if only he hadn't taken the crown! Or maybe STANNIS could've compromised and agreed to let the North and Riverlands go, ever consider that? What did Stannis have to offer him, anyways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Genuinely asking, seems like a bunch of people really don't like him.Guess I was sort of annoyed he didn't honour his oath to marry a Frey girl, but he was 16, injured, and depressed (thought his bros were dead) so I didn't judge him too harshly for that.Other than that I think he did as good as a 16 year old kid in his position could do. He died. We all believed in him, he had to succeed. The other Starks believed in him he was their only hope, no losses on the battlefied he was GOING to do it. He was there, he had it. Then just like that. (snaps) he was gone. The world shocked us back into "reality" with a harsh "Heroes don't always win" reminder. Then for even more cruelty GRRM shows how it's all been building up based on what we thought were totes good decisions at the time. So GRRM not only takes away a decent and good character, he kinda makes you feel like a dumb-ass for believing in that character to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Time Robert Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Robb Stark is one of the worst characters and is THE most overrated character in A Song of Ice and Fire. First of all, he is a HUGE oath-breaker. Cat thinks he is all great and stuff, but Ned would've HATED him. He promises to marry someone in a few minutes, and then breaks the vow in less than a year. Not only is he an oath-breaker, but he is an enormous idiot who thinks he knows everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Time Robert Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Also I HATE the king in the north. He could've supported Stannis or someone else but instead he chooses to be extremely stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Also I HATE the king in the north. He could've supported Stannis or someone else but instead he chooses to be extremely stupid He should have supported Renly, like most of his bannermen advocated before crowning him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 He should have supported Renly, like most of his bannermen advocated before crowning him. Renly had no claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Renly had no claim. And Robb followed the Arryn words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Renly had no claim. What is a claim compared to the lives it could have saved, lives of the Northmen for who he was supposedly responsible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 What is a claim compared to the lives it could have saved, lives of the Northmen for who he was supposedly responsible?Robb would never have supported Renly. Robb was Ned's son and Ned was Jon Arryn's ward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 What is a claim compared to the lives it could have saved, lives of the Northmen for who he was supposedly responsible? What lives? Renly was sitting on his butt watching tourneys while the country bled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 What lives? Renly was sitting on his butt watching tourneys while the country bled. Renly was sitting on his butt to ensure that his two enemies bleed each other out. Should Robb side with him, he has no reason to delay his actions anymore, and the priority automatically becomes taking the Lannisters out before Tywin and his famous Lannister gold are put to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Renly was sitting on his butt to ensure that his two enemies bleed each other out. Should Robb side with him, he has no reason to delay his actions anymore, and the priority automatically becomes taking the Lannisters out before Tywin and his famous Lannister gold are put to use. Which doesn't change the point. Joining up with Reny wouldn't limit the bloodshed. Renly wanted the Lannisters and Starks to weaken each other. He wasn't out for any moral reasons. He was also starving Kings Landing so he could come in and "save them". That's the smart thing to do, but not the nice thing. The honorable thing to do would be to side with Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Which doesn't change the point. Joining up with Reny wouldn't limit the bloodshed. Renly wanted the Lannisters and Starks to weaken each other. He wasn't out for any moral reasons. He was also starving Kings Landing so he could come in and "save them". That's the smart thing to do, but not the nice thing. The honorable thing to do would be to side with Stannis. I think it's more honourable to side with the strongest side, and thus ensure a quick and rapid victory, limiting the bloodshed to a minimum on at the very least on side and making the chances of desertion and surrender on the other more likely. Supporting Renly is putting an end to the War faster, and thus saves lives that would have otherwise been lost. Supporting Stannis means putting all the sides of the conflicts on an equal standing, thus optimizing the bloodshed that is consequent of two relatively equal forces in conflict with one another. I think honour lies in doing what is for the good of most, siding with Renly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 I think it's more honourable to side with the strongest side, and thus ensure a quick and rapid victory, limiting the bloodshed to a minimum on at the very least on side and making the chances of desertion and surrender on the other more likely. Supporting Renly is putting an end to the War faster, and thus saves lives that would have otherwise been lost. Supporting Stannis means putting all the sides of the conflicts on an equal standing, thus optimizing the bloodshed that is consequent of two relatively equal forces in conflict with one another. I think honour lies in doing what is for the good of most, siding with Renly. Allying with the strongest side is smarter, but not more honorable. By that logic, it would have been more honorable for Robb, Stannis and Renly to sit on their hands and let the Lannisters rule to spare the realm more bloodshed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Allying with the strongest side is smarter, but not more honorable. By that logic, it would have been more honorable for Robb, Stannis and Renly to sit on their hands and let the Lannisters rule to spare the realm more bloodshed. By my definition of honour, yes, it would have been. Hence why Renly's plan to take the Baratheon children into custody was pretty much the best/most honourable thing that could have happened from my point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Robb Stark is one of the worst characters and is THE most overrated character in A Song of Ice and Fire. First of all, he is a HUGE oath-breaker. Cat thinks he is all great and stuff, but Ned would've HATED him. He promises to marry someone in a few minutes, and then breaks the vow in less than a year. Not only is he an oath-breaker, but he is an enormous idiot who thinks he knows everything. Ned was no stranger to oathbreaking himself... fathered a bastard--Wedding vows or betrayed Robert--Fealty take your pick. Neither lasted a year.. Show Robb made a choice. Book Rob made a mistake and tried to make it right. Show Robb was an idiot and know-it-all. Book Robb was a competent commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Ned was no stranger to oathbreaking himself... fathered a bastard--Wedding vows or betrayed Robert--Fealty take your pick. Neither lasted a year.. Show Robb made a choice. Book Rob made a mistake and tried to make it right. Show Robb was an idiot and know-it-all. Book Robb was a competent commander. And an incompetent ruler and politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.