Usrnmhsnomning Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Because Robb was a KingDidn't matter in any other dealing with the Freys. The Freys would never have agreed to a wedding in the North, blatantly because they were planning to defect with the Boltons and once they get above the Neck that completely falls apart. If Robb refuses, well, Tywin's insistence of a "stray arrow" would have occurred, I'd imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Walder made it personal yep, but really killing Robbs men and capturing him in the same way he did Edmure would have been the only way to ensure he gained control of the North and ending the war in one move. Otherwise he risks Robb escaping or dying before giving him the heir he wants. Here's what Martin has to say about this:We know that Roose Bolton had already taken Walda Frey to wife before Robb married Jeyne Westerling. Does this then mean that Walder Frey had already planned to ally himself with Bolton to murder Robb before Robb's marriage betrayal, or was his anger towards Robb and his reasoning towards his own family as to why Robb had to be killed more than just a pretext, and the genuine reason for the Red Wedding?"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Here's what Martin has to say about this:Less savage, but happened anyway. Point proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhymes with Weak Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 I'm of the opinion that as Roose housed the Frey contingent of the Northern army at Harrenhall and word of Robb's betrayal of the marriage pact came and the Frey's abandoned Robb they also began formulating a plan with Roose to get back at Robb and get on the winning side of the war, of course Robb was not actually losing at this point, he still had an army of veteran Cavalry and some of the most brilliant commanders in Westeros along with a plan to win back his home and the levies possible to recruit therein. Roose and the Frey's however never learned of his plans because Robb was never fully trusting of his subordinates for some reason. I honestly believe that if Frey and Bolton scheming didn't occur due to Robb's marriage of the Westerling girl he could have regrouped and the war would have ended differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Point proven? You keep saying the Red Wedding would have happened anyway even if Robb has kept his word to Walder yet here Martin says straight out it was motivated by Walder's anger at Robb for his marriage to Jeyne. Less savage most likely means Walder taking his army home, switching sides in the usual way and not perform a legendary atrocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Less savage most likely means Walder taking his army home, switching sides in the usual way and not perform a legendary atrocity.That's your take on it. I differ from that opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhymes with Weak Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Less savage, but happened anyway. Point proven.What? You just don't quit, after being proven wrong. You're like a real world equivalent of Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 What? You just don't quit, after being proven wrong. You're like a real world equivalent of Stannis.My point was that the Westerling wedding wasn't the reason the Red Wedding occurred, that it just contributed to it. My opinion is that a variation of the Red Wedding would occur anyway, and the SSM doesn't explicitly deny that. I'm not proven wrong, you're just interpreting an SSM in a way that supports your opinion, just like I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhymes with Weak Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 My point was that the Westerling wedding wasn't the reason the Red Wedding occurred, that it just contributed to it. My opinion is that a variation of the Red Wedding would occur anyway, and the SSM doesn't explicitly deny that. I'm not proven wrong, you're just interpreting an SSM in a way that supports your opinion, just like I am.I agree with your that Walder would have probably betrayed Robb at a later date, if Robb had gone through with the initial marriage. It would not have been Robb's doing it would've just been because Walder is an old fart. GRRM clearly states however that the machinations of Walder culminating in the red wedding are only realized because the honor of Walder's house and his person were snubbed by Robb Stark in his marriage of the Westerling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 GRRM clearly states however that the machinations of Walder culminating in the red wedding are only realized because the honor of Walder's house and his person were snubbed by Robb Stark in his marriage of the Westerling.No, he says the defection would have been less savage. This =/= Red Wedding only happened because of Westerling marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan12 Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Two words:Love potion. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 He started a war when he could have tried to defuse the situation diplomatically.Granted, Theon egged him on, but that doesn't change the fact that he killed thousands in the name of dignity and honour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Wolf Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 For me it's not so much hatred as frustration when it comes to Robb. He shows so much promise as a leader and as a war tactitian by winning so many battles, and you start to believe that he'd be a fantastic Lord of Winterfell if he ever got it back. And then he goes and makes a catastrophic mistake like going against his promise to the Freys. You just feel like he should know better, because he's shown himself to be clever and rational all this time, so why be so stupid on this one occasion, when he must know it would cost so much? I just don't know how he could ever believe that he could make amends with Walder Frey.But, like you say, he was, for all his battle prowess, still a 16 year old boy, and young boys will make silly decisions when it comes to love. I just wish he could have seen that he couldn't afford to be a silly teenager when his own life, his mother's life and the lives of his men depended on him.He had to marry Jeyne because he'd deflowered her and to not marry her would be dishonering her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhymes with Weak Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 He had to marry Jeyne because he'd deflowered her and to not marry her would be dishonering herWell, I suppose Robb and Ned and all the rest of 'em can weep over their lost honor in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 He had to marry Jeyne because he'd deflowered her and to not marry her would be dishonering herHe could have had a bannerman marry her and keep everyone's honour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honest Bill Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 I make it a point not to try not to hate any characters that we don't have POV's of, because once you see inside someone's head it can really change your opinion of them. (Except Ramsay you twisted SOB. At least Joff was entertaining...)How can you say Ramsay isn't entertaining? He's one of the best characters in the book. I'm not going to be able to read a Theon chapter from now on without feeling incredibly tense that Ramsay might turn up at any minute with his 'girls' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalalOfDorne Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 As pointed out before, its more like: " I love Robb, but he screwed up in some places". He (And Ned for that matter) isnt hated like Catelyn is.Mladen 26-15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Robb Stark was a beloved character for me, but that doesn't make him any less naive when it came to his decisions. He should have just married Roslin and spared his own life and Cat's. Jeyne could have married one of his bannerman, and all is well. There are sacrifices you must make in times of war. Jeyne had other options. He put himself on a hole, and if It wasn't for that, he could still have a chance at winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 I am indifferent to Robb, but I can see why he gets a lot of criticism. His bad decisions are the reason why the Starks are in such trouble. Though, what I blame him for most was not trading his sisters for Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oblivian Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 I feel a need to defend Robb here. He was betrayed by basically everyone, his friends, his banner men, even his own mother. And his downfall was because Tywin cheated, which is what Lannisters typically do. People criticize him for breaking his promise to the Freys, which is unfair. That promise was extorted out of him, so he could cross a bridge to give relief to besieged Riverrun. At the time, the riverlands were being burned out by an invading Lannister army, and Hoster's own Bannerman, Frey, was doing nothing. And in addition to breaking his vows to his ledge lord, Frey blocked the army that was coming south to defend. In addition to disregarding his duty, Frey extorted the promise out of Robb. It was an unfair agreement in the first place, and Robb was within his rights to break it. He in effect had to bribe Frey just to do his sworn duty. And for all be knew, if Robb had gone through with the promise, Frey would have just betrayed him again whenever it was convenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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