Biglose Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 Are you saying that Cat's killings are all justified because her victims are "enemy combatants"?I really think it has more to do with vengeance.It does not matter how she justifies it for herself. (Or nobody would be evil if they are smart)The question is can you come up with a system where her acts themself can be seen as evil.And thats where the problem starts: Westeros is not modern enough to really estabilsh such a system. (Geneva convention)And even today it is more than questionable how to apply the geneva convention in asymetrical warfare or if one side seriously violated it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alhazred Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 And any other war doesn't???? No. Not all wars are justified or motivated by vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alhazred Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 The question is can you come up with a system where her acts themself can be seen as evil."Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."This can be interpreted as reasonably consistent with the legal self-defense doctrine, and its war-time equivalent - the justification of killing enemy combatants during a state of war. But it limits both those doctrines, and prevents them from being stretched beyond certain limits.It does not extend to the murder of Brienne and Pod. That was basically the murder of 2 travelers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 It does not extend to the murder of Brienne and Pod. That was basically the murder of 2 travelers.Except that Brienne is proven to be a traitor and Lannister combatant. And Pod complicit in that treason and a Lannister combatant as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Except that Brienne is proven to be a traitor and Lannister combatant. And Pod complicit in that treason and a Lannister combatant as well.Exactly. I just don't get people's logic. It's not like the Lannisters, if they got their hands on Catelyn, would spare her. Oh, wait... They already got their hands on her, and they already killed her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 She is no worse then Ned.Seeing how Ned had no problem executing Gared without a trial or holding a child even younger then Pod captive under the threat of execution if his father didn't comply with Ned's wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father of Hosts Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Exactly. I just don't get people's logic. It's not like the Lannisters, if they got their hands on Catelyn, would spare her. Oh, wait... They already got their hands on her, and they already killed her.If you want UnCat to be equal to the Lannisters, then yeah, that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 ??? No. Not all wars are justified or motivated by vengeance.Dany's war is. Robb's war was. Balon's war was. Robert's Rebellion was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhineHaus Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Also, trials are a complete joke anyway. I have yet to see a fair trial in this entire series. If the person judging wants to find you guilty, you will be found guilty. It doesn't really make sense to get angry about the lack of farcical show trial.I agree. Trials are very subjective in the series and rarely have to do with real justice. I find the trial by combat a compelling piece of story, but I also find it a compelling piece of conversation. It's purposefully up to the reader to interpret religion how they want, and that should be applied to the legitimacy of a trial by combat. Is it divine justice that decides the winner, or does the best fighter win? We'll never know.Lady Stoneheart bypasses all these customs and works within her own vengeance. An interesting duality, since Catelyn was murdered by those who'd also abandoned traditional customs.Except that Brienne is proven to be a traitor and Lannister combatant. And Pod complicit in that treason and a Lannister combatant as well.Not proven to be a traitor, though. Only an accused traitor. For me, it's similar to when Brienne was escorting Jaime to King's Landing. She made it a point that she served Catelyn Tully, not the Starks. Same with Jaime vs. the Lannisters. If anything, Brienne is a victim to her own honor, something Lady Stoneheart has no regard for in her blind rage toward the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Not proven to be a traitor, though. Only an accused traitor.Brienne became an open traitor when she disobeyed a direct order by her legitimate superior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Not proven to be a traitor, though. Only an accused traitor. For me, it's similar to when Brienne was escorting Jaime to King's Landing. She made it a point that she served Catelyn Tully, not the Starks. Same with Jaime vs. the Lannisters. If anything, Brienne is a victim to her own honor, something Lady Stoneheart has no regard for in her blind rage toward the Lannisters.The BWB presents proof that Brienne is a traitor. A Lannister sword, a Lannister squire, Lannister orders, Lannister paper with Tommen's seal. Brienne can't counter anything of that. Furthermore, she refuses an order.Trial, sufficient proof, verdict, guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I agree. Trials are very subjective in the series and rarely have to do with real justice. I find the trial by combat a compelling piece of story, but I also find it a compelling piece of conversation. It's purposefully up to the reader to interpret religion how they want, and that should be applied to the legitimacy of a trial by combat. Is it divine justice that decides the winner, or does the best fighter win? We'll never know. We know very well. There have already been two trials by battle in this series where the outcome was wrong - once the innocent was pronounced guilty, the other time the guilty party walked away free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father of Hosts Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 The BWB presents proof that Brienne is a traitor. A Lannister sword, a Lannister squire, Lannister orders, Lannister paper with Tommen's seal. Brienne can't counter anything of that. Furthermore, she refuses an order.Trial, sufficient proof, verdict, guilty.Come on. She refused an order from a walking, noise-mumbling corpse. The military shtick doesn't fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiola Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I hate the idea of UnCat because I think resurrection is tacky and anticlimactic. And I hate that this is what my beloved Cat has turned into, though. I wish her soul could rest in peace </3 However, as far as a "resurrection storyline" could go, I like hers. She's getting revenge and isn't playing around about it. Good for her. Hanging Pod was not the most admirable decision, but other than that, may the Seven bless her and give her strength to continue kicking ass.And THEN she can rest in peace with Ned in the afterlife... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Come on. She refused an order from a walking, noise-mumbling corpse. The military shtick doesn't fly.That's like one branch out of ten to hang her from. Furthermore, she doesn't argue that, her refusing is closer linked to Jaime's dreamy eyes.Brienne called Lady Stark by name, the BWB recognizes her authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father of Hosts Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 That's like one branch out of ten to hang her from. Furthermore, she doesn't argue that, her refusing is closer linked to Jaime's dreamy eyes.Brienne called Lady Stark by name, the BWB recognizes her authority.Funny, the BWB doesn't call her by name.She refused an order she knows to be in poor judgement and made without a complete set of facts. I didn't argue the part about the evidence because I don't necessarily disagree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alhazred Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Seeing how Ned had no problem executing Gared without a trialGared was guilty as charged. What makes you suppose he did not get due process? Even in modern courts, one does not get a trial when one pleads guilty.or holding a child even younger then Pod captive under the threat of execution if his father didn't comply with Ned's wishes.There is no indication that Ned ever threatened any child with execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Come on. She refused an order from a walking, noise-mumbling corpse.From Brienne's PoV early in AFFC - "no promise was as solemn as one sworn to the dead." I don't think it's a throwaway line.She refused an order she knows to be in poor judgementWhy? Jaime deserves death 10 times over by Westeros standards.There is no indication that Ned ever threatened any child with execution.Theon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alhazred Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Theon?Exactly. There is no evidence that Ned ever threatened Theon with execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhineHaus Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 The BWB presents proof that Brienne is a traitor. A Lannister sword, a Lannister squire, Lannister orders, Lannister paper with Tommen's seal. Brienne can't counter anything of that. Furthermore, she refuses an order.Trial, sufficient proof, verdict, guilty.Sufficient proof only by their standards, which are pliable to say the least. Brienne tried to give her story, of which the reader knows to be true, but Lady Stoneheart didn't believe her. While I enjoy Lady Stoneheart immensely, I don't believe her reasoning to be enough to deem someone guilty or not. Especially when she allows her hatred to become her rationale. But, then again, that seems to be the embodiment of Lady Stoneheart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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