Heroes, Villains and Something in Between

[Abyssalix]

Heroes :

Eddard stark. Jon Snow, Varys

Villains :

Gregor Clegane, The others

In-betweens :

Pretty much everyone else.

[ejhawman]

I don't see Theon as a villain. More a kid out of his depth, and he got chewed up and not yet spit out.

Arya and Sansa are more toward the heroic end of the scale, Sansa straight and Arya dark.

Jon, Dany, Barristan, Davos, Stannis, all clear heroes. Not all heroes are pristine.

Jaime was a villain, now being redeemed. Cersei is just straight villain, gloriously reveling in it.

Tyrion is painted as grey, but he seems a form of heroic to me.

[Neilos]

People make a lot of the fact that Jaime saved King's Landing from death-by-Wildfire.

In my eyes, it does not make him a hero. In my eyes, you'd have to be an utter psychopath not to do it. He thought of nothing but his sister's body when people were being burned and strangled in front of him, and was finally motivated to do something by the threat to hundreds-of-millions (including himself). You'd have to be a psychopath not to do what he did.

Jaime has made some genuine baby steps towards redemption (such as saving Brienne), but bloody hell, he has far to go to be considered anything other than a villain to me.

[ReekLeek]

- It cheapens Cersei's characterization because it explains key elements of her character, like her dislike of Tyrion, in an incredibly convenient way

- It came out of the blue and hadn't been referenced in any of the previous novels

- It works as an obvious plot device so Cersei can make certain decisions to move the plot based on her paranoia against Margaery

- It uses the incredibly cliched trope of "the young and fair queen who will usurp the evil one", as seen in Snow white

- It spoils unnecesarily Cersei's and her children's fates

- It was unnecesary because there were already other elements to explain Cersei's psychological decline

I like how it relates to her hatred of tyrion. Othetwise thay hatred xomes outta left field, besides the dead mom thing but that's obviously not his fault.

We heard about this prophecy in her first pov chapter. Doesn't mean she hasn't thoght about it daily before this

Agree on third point but at same time it does give us a topic to theorize over on who queen will be so I'm happy he included it.

Again, it gives us something to theorize over (who is valonqar?) And we don't know for sure this will come true. Many people actually think myrcella and tommen will live. Red herring?

Though there were other factors in play on cerseis craziness I don't think that's the primary reason why grrm included it.

Anyways were all entitled to our opinions and i respect yours.I have to say I enjoyed affc fully and the only thing I would chamge is add some more action and bring some of those off stage events on stage

[Fat Mac]

Heroes :

Eddard stark. Jon Snow, Varys

Villains :

Gregor Clegane, The others

In-betweens :

Pretty much everyone else.

Varys isn't a hero by any means.

[callmedodge]

Seems like more of a "here are my favourite characters."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If Stannis doesn't get any credit for relieving Deepwood Motte from the ironborn because he needed the men, then Dany shouldn't get any credit for freeing the Unsullied because hey, she needed the men too.

And frankly the OP's assertion that Dany's motives alone are enough to make her heroic are almost enough to laugh off the entire argument.

In terms of genuine purity of character, I'd say the list can probably be narrowed down to Davos, Brienne, Aemon and maybe Ned. Expand that to people with self-interests who are trying to "do the right thing" for the "right" reason and you can probably toss in Jon, Sam, Barristan and Stannis. And everyone else is probably in between on a various spectrum.

[Jon of the Dead]

I like how it relates to her hatred of tyrion. Othetwise thay hatred xomes outta left field, besides the dead mom thing but that's obviously not his fault.

We heard about this prophecy in her first pov chapter. Doesn't mean she hasn't thoght about it daily before this

Agree on third point but at same time it does give us a topic to theorize over on who queen will be so I'm happy he included it.

Again, it gives us something to theorize over (who is valonqar?) And we don't know for sure this will come true. Many people actually think myrcella and tommen will live. Red herring?

Though there were other factors in play on cerseis craziness I don't think that's the primary reason why grrm included it.

Anyways were all entitled to our opinions and i respect yours.I have to say I enjoyed affc fully and the only thing I would chamge is add some more action and bring some of those off stage events on stage

Yeah, despite the Maggy thing, I think the Cersei chapters in aFfC are amongst the best in the series, only surpassed by Theon's in aDwD, so it shows Martin's excellent skills as a writer.

[Dire-Lion]

- It cheapens Cersei's characterization because it explains key elements of her character, like her dislike of Tyrion, in an incredibly convenient way

- It came out of the blue and hadn't been referenced in any of the previous novels

- It works as an obvious plot device so Cersei can make certain decisions to move the plot based on her paranoia against Margaery

- It uses the incredibly cliched trope of "the young and fair queen who will usurp the evil one", as seen in Snow white

- It spoils unnecesarily Cersei's and her children's fates

- It was unnecesary because there were already other elements to explain Cersei's psychological decline

Given Cersei's reactions to the prophecy it seems like she never told anyone about it, so no one else would know about. GRRM could be doing it to subvert the "young and fair" queen. Usually this queen is a fair maiden type and it would be cool if that "young and fair" stuff was just a facade.

[Raining Blood Magic]

Heroes-Everything with hot blood

Villains-The Others

[The Drunkard]

How can you possibly claim Jorah is a hero?

[ReekLeek]

Heroes-Everything with hot blood

Villains-The Others

Read the heresy threads

[Nictarion]

Grrm did say stannis was the closest thing to a hero we'll get in asoaif...

Anyone have a link to this quote? The only thing I've seen him say is that he has lots of pov characters, and they are all heros of their own stories. And considering Stannis isn't even a pov....

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

If Stannis doesn't get any credit for relieving Deepwood Motte from the ironborn because he needed the men, then Dany shouldn't get any credit for freeing the Unsullied because hey, she needed the men too.

And frankly the OP's assertion that Dany's motives alone are enough to make her heroic are almost enough to laugh off the entire argument.

In terms of genuine purity of character, I'd say the list can probably be narrowed down to Davos, Brienne, Aemon and maybe Ned. Expand that to people with self-interests who are trying to "do the right thing" for the "right" reason and you can probably toss in Jon, Sam, Barristan and Stannis. And everyone else is probably in between on a various spectrum.

I never say that her motive alone make her heroic, I said that she has made some odd decisions with good intentions, for example the reclaim of the 163 slavers ir return of the 163 slave children impaled on the route to Meereen, that by the way is a form of application of what in the ancient world was know as Lex Talionis (an eye for eye, a life for a life) something that in our ancient world is was just common sense.

In the case of Stannis, how many ironborn people were in the Deepwood Moot? very few. In the North Stannis has achieve exacly the same thing he achieve when he was sent to Dragonstone or when he was defendind Storm's End: Absolutly nothing.

I repeat the question: What are those greatest thing that Stannis has done so far?

[Dire-Lion]

I never say that her motive alone make her heroic, I said that she has made some odd decisions with good intentions, for example the reclaim of the 163 slavers ir return of the 163 slave children impaled on the route to Meereen, that by the way is a form of application of what in the ancient world was know as Lex Talionis (an eye for eye, a life for a life) something that in our ancient world is was just common sense.

In the case of Stannis, how many ironborn people were in the Deepwood Moot? very few. In the North Stannis has achieve exacly the same thing he achieve when he was sent to Dragonstone or when he was defendind Storm's End: Absolutly nothing.

I repeat the question: What are those greatest thing that Stannis has done so far?

You seem to think that Stannis' deeds are negated by selfish motivations over you're forgetting that everything Dany has done is to get on the IT which means that she is also selfishly motivated.

[IRON BANK]

What a thread...

I find considering both Jaime and Theon villians pretty stupid , .

Jaime and Theon are both villains. Ther motives and attitude are just so lame that you feel sympathy for how stupid they are as they justify their terrible actions as they move through the story.

[IRON BANK]

I never say that her motive alone make her heroic, I said that she has made some odd decisions with good intentions, for example the reclaim of the 163 slavers ir return of the 163 slave children impaled on the route to Meereen, that by the way is a form of application of what in the ancient world was know as Lex Talionis (an eye for eye, a life for a life) something that in our ancient world is was just common sense.

In the case of Stannis, how many ironborn people were in the Deepwood Moot? very few. In the North Stannis has achieve exacly the same thing he achieve when he was sent to Dragonstone or when he was defendind Storm's End: Absolutly nothing.

I repeat the question: What are those greatest thing that Stannis has done so far?

He has helped teach others how to lead, like Davos, and Jon and has moved other main characters around the fictional world. Also he has provided comedy relief while Tyrion was away.

[Nictarion]

you're forgetting that everything Dany has done is to get on the IT which means that she is also selfishly motivated.

Once she had the unsullied, she chooses to stay in Slavers Bay to try to help eradicate slavery. This had nothing to do with her quest for the IT, in fact it greatly delays it.

[IRON BANK]

If Stannis doesn't get any credit for relieving Deepwood Motte from the ironborn because he needed the men, then Dany shouldn't get any credit for freeing the Unsullied because hey, she needed the men too.

And frankly the OP's assertion that Dany's motives alone are enough to make her heroic are almost enough to laugh off the entire argument.

In terms of genuine purity of character, I'd say the list can probably be narrowed down to Davos, Brienne, Aemon and maybe Ned. Expand that to people with self-interests who are trying to "do the right thing" for the "right" reason and you can probably toss in Jon, Sam, Barristan and Stannis. And everyone else is probably in between on a various spectrum.

I agree however Dany has to be inserted in the names between Sam and Barristan.

[IRON BANK]

Once she had the unsullied, she chooses to stay in Slavers Bay to try to help eradicate slavery. This had nothing to do with her quest for the IT, in fact it greatly delays it.

So true: Dany acts selflessly even though she lacks the skills to correct the situation right away she is still trying. Shows how much character she has and the strength of her resolve.