House Stark of Harrenhal (long, but with TLDR summary)

[para]

You've forgotten about the greatest of all Vale houses - House Tollett, whose apocryphical words are "When All Is Darkest". House Tollet could also bridge the communication gap between Sansa and Jon, via the greatest of men - Dolorous Edd. So when all is darkest for Sansa, House Tollett comes to the rescue and gets Jon Stargaryen to rescue and escape with her and Sweetrobin on the back of dragon with bat wings, making him the final suitor as foreshadowed in the Ashford Tourney Hypothesis.

This might sound a little cracked out but really, if you go crackpot why not go broke?

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Seriously, some people need to take a break from ASOIAF. lol

[Mladen]

Interesting theories...Sansa ruling in the South and Jon in the North...but then what about Rickon? Maybe he'll be too busy being the Chieftain of Skagos...

I do agree that Sansa seems like a logical choice to be re-builder of some kind...

He will be the wild wolf, free to hunt with Shaggydog all around North... Kidding :). IDK, my idea of Jon ruling the North until Rickon becomes of age and then reunite with the NW once again recreating it to last until the end of time...

You've forgotten about the greatest of all Vale houses - House Tollett, whose apocryphical words are "When All Is Darkest". House Tollet could also bridge the communication gap between Sansa and Jon, via the greatest of men - Dolorous Edd. So when all is darkest for Sansa, House Tollett comes to the rescue and gets Jon Stargaryen to rescue and escape with her and Sweetrobin on the back of dragon with bat wings, making him the final suitor as foreshadowed in the Ashford Tourney Hypothesis.

This might sound a little cracked out but really, if you go crackpot why not go broke?

The pot is broken with adding Tollet :)... I was more focusing on Lords Declarant and their possible part in taking LF's down and helping Sansa escape his perverse grasp, using some clues of what might happen in the Vale and what will be Sansa's role in it.

Seriously, some people need to take a break from ASOIAF. lol

I know right... Especially when they have nothing smart to say... Enjoy the break, TFL...

[Winnief]

He will be the wild wolf, free to hunt with Shaggydog all around North... Kidding :). IDK, my idea of Jon ruling the North until Rickon becomes of age and then reunite with the NW once again recreating it to last until the end of time...

That could work...though, I also kinda like the idea of Rickon going completely feral and ruling Skagos, or perhaps being King Beyond the Wall...

Thought KBtW could be Jon's destiny as well really, I suppose...

And of course Sansa's grandmother on the maternal side was of House Whent, who lived in Harrenhaal for a long time, so she's got a claim through them as well.

[Fire Eater]

I like all the observations here, Mladen.

As for the broken wheel of House Waynwood, you did bring up the Reader's "time is like a wheel" with history repeating itself. The broken wheel could refer to the cycle being broken, with repetition stopped. Maybe a hint to the curse of Harrnehal ending or some other cycle?

I can't buy anyone the readers care about--although depending on where her arc as Littlefinger's protege takes her, by the end of the books the readers might not care that much about Sansa--winding up with Harrenhal, as it's been pretty well established to be cursed. GRRM wouldn't have an endgame for a character contain a lingering question, which is what a character ending up with a cursed castle which has withered every hand which touched it would mean. Sansa's endgame will be more settled than that, whatever it is.

The whole idea of king's blood, let alone Sansa's blood, breaking the curse is ridiculous. That's some silly Disney shit: curses don't get broken in this series.

Sansa could possibly circumvent that curse by building a different castle as her seat besides Harrenhal.

[Mladen]

I like all the observations here, Mladen.

As for the broken wheel of House Waynwood, you did bring up the Reader's "time is like a wheel" with history repeating itself. The broken wheel could refer to the cycle being broken, with repetition stopped. Maybe a hint to the curse of Harrnehal ending or some other cycle?

Sansa could possibly circumvent that curse by building a different castle as her seat besides Harrenhal.

Thanks, my friend... After all, you are the expert on these things...

As for broken circle, nice parallel between Waynwood wheel and Reader's one. Now, I will remind you on some old thoughts you had about Trios and Warrior vs Smith aspect of the story. Then morph that with bumps' ideas about Dany being the "game changer", the catalyst (I have already done it here), and you can see that Dany might "break the wheel" by her Conquest. Perhaps, Dany's campaign to Westeros will destroy the wheel and stop some repetitions, even perhaps by destroying the Harrenhal, end the curse? So, Dany as destroyer and Sansa as re-builder of Harrenhal might together end the curse? Fire and ice, perhaps?

[ARYa_Nym]

Problem with interpretation in which story is deliberately invented is that we haven't heard it anywhere else. It was one time reference to Sansa as "wolf with wings of bat". This isn't lie like we had about Robb's warging abilities, where his strength and prowess is diminished by his enemies. Here, we actually have description of one man who wasn't there. It's not like we hear that story many times, we hear it once and we can actually say that author talked through Polliver. It was meaningless story, which Arya finds stupid. Any story that Arya ever found stupid proved to be true... So, "wolf with wings of a bat" that seems stupid to Arya, has both heraldic and symbolic meaning (read Bran Vras' post and go to Black Bat link he provided).

I mentioned this in another thread. There was a theory based around Arya talking about a stupid lady throwing herself from a tower because of a stupid prince and her saying stupid means that the reader must pay attention.

The theory sounded plausible but I'm not sure if I agree that just because Arya dismisses something as stupid it is true.

She has said I hope your stupid princess dies-She's talking about herself. This may be true but it contradicts with other things she dismisses as stupid.

Greenbeard jokes about marrying her and she pushes his stupid hand away-He's like an old version of Daario. Highly unlikely.

She thinks going back to the Inn of the Kneeling and being an outlaw like Wenda the Whitefawn is stupid- I doubt it.

She thinks Braavos can be her home for second but then says that's stupid. She has no home. It's true that not all the Starks are dead like she assumed but it can't be true that Braavos is her home and also true that she will be an outlaw in the Riverlands.

In the Sansa quote it was true that she married Tyrion. Arya dismissed that but she was also right that Sansa does not know spells. Sansa has the reputation for sorcery/witchcraft but if any Stark is one it's Arya with her potions/poisons lessons and you can even argue that she has cats as her familiar which many witches do. Sansa also did not kill the king. That was the Tyrells. She was only a tool who did not know it was going to happen.

[Winnief]

Dany might "break the wheel" by her Conquest. Perhaps, Dany's campaign to Westeros will destroy the wheel and stop some repetitions, even perhaps by destroying the Harrenhal, end the curse? So, Dany as destroyer and Sansa as re-builder of Harrenhal might together end the curse? Fire and ice, perhaps?

Awesome theory! And now that i think on it Dany and Sansa weren't too far apart in age, when their story arcs began for them with arranged marriages. Both are from especially impressive lineages, with Dany as a Targaryen and Sansa being the child of two Paramount houses, both have fathers who die at Lannister hands, both have older brothers who die gruesomely, both are abused, both end up in living in exile for a time and get a lot of suitors after them for their respective claims.

[Mladen]

I mentioned this in another thread. There was a theory based around Arya talking about a stupid lady throwing herself from a tower because of a stupid prince and her saying stupid means that the reader must pay attention.

Well, it's not like that every thing that Arya considers stupid is worthy of attention, it's more about those crazy stories she hears and she easily dismisses them. It's just that she has that track record, like some other characters, where in dismissing implausible and on first mention rather interesting thing, her "stupid" represents that it's just one child's opinion and that truth may be actually what is said.

As for this case, we know Sansa didn't escape by transforming into the wolf with bat wings, but it can serve as powerful foreshadowing in her storyarc.

Awesome theory! And now that i think on it Dany and Sansa weren't too far apart in age, when their story arcs began for them with arranged marriages. Both are from especially impressive lineages, with Dany as a Targaryen and Sansa being the child of two Paramount houses, both have fathers who die at Lannister hands, both have older brothers who die gruesomely, both are abused, both end up in living in exile for a time and get a lot of suitors after them for their respective claims.

Thanks... There are many parallels between them and interestingly striking oppositions. I think we may see Clash if the Princesses in Vale when Dany arrives in Westeros. I sincerely would like to see how two of them possibly would overcome bad blood between the two families and whether they'll be able to become allies...

[IRON BANK]

I don't think that marriage will ever happen. Sansa will rule Harrenhall in her own name.

I agree with this. Sansa using this strategy will also be able to have good political ties with the riverlords through the other side of her family. in essence her kingdom acting as a shield to the north, and the north being the sword. This will come to be a crucial alliance when dealing with the south.

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, it's not like that every thing that Arya considers stupid is worthy of attention, it's more about those crazy stories she hears and she easily dismisses them. It's just that she has that track record, like some other characters, where in dismissing implausible and on first mention rather interesting thing, her "stupid" represents that it's just one child's opinion and that truth may be actually what is said.

As for this case, we know Sansa didn't escape by transforming into the wolf with bat wings, but it can serve as powerful foreshadowing in her storyarc.

I'm saying does she really have this track record? What examples are you talking about besides this one where she dismisses something true or will be true as stupid?

I only see 2. The quote for this theory only half supports this idea. She dismissed that Sansa would marry Tyrion. She was correct though that Sansa doesn't know spells and didn't kill Joffrey. She told Lommy he was stupid and the NW didn't accept girls. This is still true for the most part. They only had some spearwives in ADWD.

She denied Catelyn freeing the Kingslayer but she never said it was stupid. She prayed so clearly she thought there was a chance that Catelyn did in fact do it.

ETA: Here are examples:

You could have made swords at Rivverrun for my brother, she thought, but what she said, “If you want to be some stupid outlaw knight and get hanged, why should I care? I’ll be at Riverrun, ransomed with my brother.”

In reference to Sandor:

“There’s a brazier in the cabin if you and your son want to get warm.” “I’m not his stupid son!” said Arya furiously. That was even worse than being taken for a boy.”

Beric would find her there. Anguy would teach her to use a bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs. But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream.

“The lightening lord is everywhere and nowhere, skinny squirrel.” “I’m not a squirrel,” she said. “I’ll almost be a woman soon. I’ll be one-and-ten.” “Best watch out I don’t marry you, then!” He tried to tickle her under the chin, but Arya slapped his stupid hand away.”

He is a man of the Night’s Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. And the singer should be on the Wall.

“What’s wrong?” Arya asked him when she saw the tears shining on his cheeks.

“My princess,” he sobbed. “We’ve been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I’ll need to marry someone else, or be a septon.”

A stupid princess, she thought, that’s nothing to cry over. “My brothers might be dead,” she confided. Elmar gave her a scornful look.

“No one cares about a serving girl’s brothers.”

It was hard not to hit him when he said that. “I hope your princess dies,” she said, and ran off before he could grab her.

One time she was about to dismiss something as stupid-Brea saying she growled in her sleep but she said Talea said it too so she didn't dismiss it.

“I forgot, you’ve been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell’s daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head.”

That’s stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she’d never marry the Imp.

^To the topic you can in a way say she is completely right because Sansa wouldn't marry the imp. She had to be forced.

[Mithras]

By the way, am I wrong or Sansa has no claim to the Vale? The ruling blood flows in the Arryns and Sweetrobin. Lysa didnot have any claim by her own right.

[Mladen]

I'm saying does she really have this track record? What examples are you talking about besides this one where she dismisses something true or will be true as stupid?

I actually think that when it comes to some crazy stories and characters' reactions on them, half the characters have that track record. Just remember Bran's reaction on TKotLT story or Tyrion's reaction on warging, Small Council's reaction on dragons being seen in Qarth etc. Arya just have heard couple of those stories she considers to be stupid, and that's where her "track record" comes from. Naturally, this isn't just the general rule for some things she considers stupid are plainly stupid or at least uninteresting to her.

By the way, am I wrong or Sansa has no claim to the Vale? The ruling blood flows in the Arryns and Sweetrobin. Lysa didnot have any claim by her own right.

No, Sansa has no claim to the Vale, only North and Riverlands. But, she can be some sort of Lady Protector of Vale of Arryn.

[harry_dresden]

I'm of the opinion that Sansa's claim to Harrenhal WILL come into fruition in the story.

But not this way.

LF will want to marry her because of that claim. It will solidify his rule as Lord of Harrenhal better. The sons that Sansa will bear for LF will have Whent and Tully blood in them.

[Mladen]

I'm of the opinion that Sansa's claim to Harrenhal WILL come into fruition in the story.

But not this way.

LF will want to marry her because of that claim. It will solidify his rule as Lord of Harrenhal better. The sons that Sansa will bear for LF will have Whent and Tully blood in them.

And, do tell me how is he going to pull marrying his own daughter. For people tend to forget that Alayne is supposed to be LF's daughter. He just can't march into Eyrie and say to Lord Declarants "I am off to wed my daughter" and if Sansa's identity is revealed to the public, then LF stands no chance in getting her. All and all, not a good or at least well thought idea.

[harry_dresden]

And, do tell me how is he going to pull marrying his own daughter. For people tend to forget that Alayne is supposed to be LF's daughter. He just can't march into Eyrie and say to Lord Declarants "I am off to wed my daughter" and if Sansa's identity is revealed to the public, then LF stands no chance in getting her. All and all, not a good or at least well thought idea.

Its totally possible.

No one is forgetting anything. Alayne isn't actual a real person, she's Sansa Stark. If she can be revealed as Sansa for Harry, why can't she be revealed as Sansa for LF?

[Mladen]

Its totally possible.

No one is forgetting anything. Alayne isn't actual a real person, she's Sansa Stark. If she can be revealed as Sansa for Harry, why can't she be revealed as Sansa for LF?

Because the entire plan is to organize wedding for Alayne and Harry. She can't be revealed at the wedding with LF for no one sane would allow him to organize wedding with his own daughter. Can you imagine those invitations? Lords Declarant, I am marrying my daughter, come to the wedding... We also have a great cake and huge surprise for you. Not mentioning the possibility Bronze Yohn knows who Alayne actually is, Sansa finding LF repulsive and not in her right mind wanting him for a husband and couple of hundreds other small reasons that makes LF/Sansa marriage complete BS.

[harry_dresden]

Because the entire plan is to organize wedding for Alayne and Harry. She can't be revealed at the wedding with LF for no one sane would allow him to organize wedding with his own daughter. Can you imagine those invitations? Lords Declarant, I am marrying my daughter, come to the wedding... We also have a great cake and huge surprise for you. Not mentioning the possibility Bronze Yohn knows who Alayne actually is, Sansa finding LF repulsive and not in her right mind wanting him for a husband and couple of hundreds other small reasons that makes LF/Sansa marriage complete BS.

The last part was just a hypoethetical question.

He doesn't have to actually do what you said to marry Sansa. He can have Harry offed and then marry her himself sometime later after revealing/doing some plans we don't know about.

The whole thing with Harry might just be a gigantic red herring and LF's real plan is something else. And part of the plan was to reveal Sansa("maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back...") not that I really trust what LF is saying at this time.

[Mladen]

The last part was just a hypoethetical question.

He doesn't have to actually do what you said to marry Sansa. He can have Harry offed and then marry her himself sometime later after revealing/doing some plans we don't know about.

The whole thing with Harry might just be a gigantic red herring and LF's real plan is something else.

Problem is that when he reveals Sansa, with huge possibility Vale lords know who she is already and plotting behind his back already, they wouldn't allow him anywhere near her. He is smart, I give him credit for all he did, but Lords Declarant have everything working for them. LF has no army, he is defenseless and if LD want him dead, well, they could easily do it. The thing is that there is some other game they play revolving Harry, SR, Alayne and LF.

As for Harry thing, of course it is a red herring. When have in ASOIAF plan laid out like that ever worked out just as described? So, we know LF wants Sansa and that he wants power, and it isn't far-fetched to consider even him hitting on her more extensively than at the moment, but the marriage, IMHO is completely off the menu. It simply doesn't work. Too many things against it...

[harry_dresden]

Problem is that when he reveals Sansa, with huge possibility Vale lords know who she is already and plotting behind his back already, they wouldn't allow him anywhere near her. He is smart, I give him credit for all he did, but Lords Declarant have everything working for them. LF has no army, he is defenseless and if LD want him dead, well, they could easily do it. The thing is that there is some other game they play revolving Harry, SR, Alayne and LF.

As for Harry thing, of course it is a red herring. When have in ASOIAF plan laid out like that ever worked out just as described? So, we know LF wants Sansa and that he wants power, and it isn't far-fetched to consider even him hitting on her more extensively than at the moment, but the marriage, IMHO is completely off the menu. It simply doesn't work. Too many things against it...

It doesn't "work" because you don't want it to work.

Its politically a logical move for LF. It also coincides with LF's desires. We don't know what's going to happen for certain with Sansa's story. I can see LF trying to marry her for said reasons. I never said it will work for certain, I just think its what LF wants and he may have planned it out in a way that you don't know about.

We don't know what LF will do in the future.