House Stark of Harrenhal (long, but with TLDR summary)

[juanml82]

Actually, I think it's just your bias for Sansa. Armed with it, you look the text and see whatever supports the idea that Sansa would get some happy ending of sorts. So your foreshadowing, theories, etc are you looking for what you want to see. Some may be true, some may be completely irrelevant details GRRM didn't put too much though into them before writing them down.

And let's roll with Bran stuck in the cave, Rickon as King in the North, Edmure murdered when his son is born and the River Lords disfranchising Edmure's kid. It means, in the event of a Stark victory, Sansa gets Riverrun and the Riverlands, but she can't have those two and Harrenhall at the same time.

Against the laws and customs of Westeros, we have one of the Mountain's men referring as Sansa as a bat. Yes, it may be. Or GRRM just wrote it that way because of the real world imaginary relationship between witches and bats.

[Mladen]

Actually, I think it's just your bias for Sansa. Armed with it, you look the text and see whatever supports the idea that Sansa would get some happy ending of sorts. So your foreshadowing, theories, etc are you looking for what you want to see. Some may be true, some may be completely irrelevant details GRRM didn't put too much though into them before writing them down.

And let's roll with Bran stuck in the cave, Rickon as King in the North, Edmure murdered when his son is born and the River Lords disfranchising Edmure's kid. It means, in the event of a Stark victory, Sansa gets Riverrun and the Riverlands, but she can't have those two and Harrenhall at the same time.

Against the laws and customs of Westeros, we have one of the Mountain's men referring as Sansa as a bat. Yes, it may be. Or GRRM just wrote it that way because of the real world imaginary relationship between witches and bats.

That would all have some meaning if you point us some mistakes I made, which, sadly for what you want to say, you haven't... So, unless you have any argument...

[Knight of the Amused Tree]

I had read Bran Vras' "Bat" essay after reading his wonderful "Winterfell Huis Clos" essays (very long but highly recommended for any who are interested in an even deeper immersion in the fascinating world of the GNC). I love the way you have expanded on his themes. I wasn't really sold on Sansa becoming the Lady of Harrenhal at first blush but the research, genealogy (marriage between the last female Lothston and a male Whent), the parallels and numerology that Bran Vras and now you have put forth have me expecting it sooner rather than later.

I'm sold now and much prefer this future for Sansa as opposed to others that I have seen put forward. It makes her powerful woman in her own right and satisfyingly completes the arc I believe her character is on. Thanks for your work on this.

[Petyr Patter]

I am sorry, but what does that even mean? I was just responding to your thoughts, nothing more. Sorry if that in any way offended you.

Oh, no. No offense, just clarifying that I wasn't arguing or being contrary. Just thinking outloud with a keyboard. Usually when somebody does the mass quote thing, its an argument. Speaking of which...

Yes, but if Stannis wants to appoint anyone of Robert's bastards, it certainly wouldn't be some poor kid from Riverlands. He has Edric Storm. Stannis could easily persuade Davos to return the boy with promise he won't do him any harm. Not to mention that Edric also has ties with Florents, and that Stannis might want to use that.

"We will make new lords."

If he finds this young Robert look alike who worships R'hollor who has been protecting Riverland orphans... Stannis would find a use for him, just like he did Davos. Provided Gendry can prove his worth. The reward would be an appropriate lordship.

As for Edric, I suspect he'll get Highgarden.

Stannis is going to need a lot of "new lords."

Edmure's child vs Sansa? Who do you think will win that battle? The Frey spawn no one but doomed Freys will follow, or the girl with full force of Vale, and support of the North and Riverlands behind her. Also, if Edmure lives, and Sansa is already taken the castle, it is up to their King to decide who gets it. And that would be King in the North. I believe that Sansa's snow castle scene from ASoS, points us in direction she will rebuild some castle, and it easily could be Harrenhal. That's why she will be granted Harrenhal, if that question is ever posed.

There does seem to be a "one lordship per person" rule in effect. I mean, we might say Tommen inherits the Crown, Casterly Rock, and Storm's End, but he can't actually sit rule all three at once. Which means appointing castellans or yielding the lesser titles to other close relatives. Or, a more powerful king stripping away superflous claims and giving them to someone else.

[Veltigar]

Yeah, I’m not buying it. I mean kudos for writing such a long post and caring as much about Sansa as you do but your arguments are not convincing at all.

The evidence you provide is flimsy at best and you are clearly suffering from the condition I like to call “foreshadowing fever” (seeing symbolism and foreshadowing in absolutely everything even though it isn’t there e.g. the KitN crown/ Whent sigil). It’s something that happens a lot when your involved in such a deep way with such a great story. We are all going a little nuts waiting for tWoW to come out :cheers:

Anyways, if anyone of the Starks gets Harrenhal (or whatever is left of it) I think it will be Arya (if she were to survive of course). Her connection to Harrenhal is much stronger than that of Sansa.

[Mladen]

Very nice work Mladen (and company :)) I read the whole thing and as always am in awe of all the work you put into these things. I have no doubt that LF's endgame as far as Sansa is concerned is closely tied to genealogy (what else could be on those tapestries??) and I agree that the HtH marriage is a sham. I love how you've connected all the pieces here, with the history of Harrenhal and the all the symbolism surrounding Sansa. You've also reminded me of my former conviction that Edmure Tully's days are numbered, something I forgot in a fit of irrational exuberance during my recent GNC analysis, so many thanks for that ;)

Thanks, dear. Yes, there is symbolic bond between Starks and Harrenhal, plus there is a theme in these books of importance of the heritage and the bastards claiming their maternal rights. We have the fact that Jon is closer to becoming King in the North (his maternal line) than King of Seven Kingdoms (paternal heritage). I believe we'll see the same with Sansa, where her maternal lineage plays important part.

I had read Bran Vras' "Bat" essay after reading his wonderful "Winterfell Huis Clos" essays (very long but highly recommended for any who are interested in an even deeper immersion in the fascinating world of the GNC). I love the way you have expanded on his themes. I wasn't really sold on Sansa becoming the Lady of Harrenhal at first blush but the research, genealogy (marriage between the last female Lothston and a male Whent), the parallels and numerology that Bran Vras and now you have put forth have me expecting it sooner rather than later.

I'm sold now and much prefer this future for Sansa as opposed to others that I have seen put forward. It makes her powerful woman in her own right and satisfyingly completes the arc I believe her character is on. Thanks for your work on this.

Yes, Bran Vras' work was extremely helpful. I began research on my own, and then somewhere near the end, I remembered he had done some work on it, so we talked about it, and he graciously allowed me to unite our works for this thread. I also got great help from butterbumps, who gave me some interesting parallels. So, this thread and its OP is fusion of all that.

Oh, no. No offense, just clarifying that I wasn't arguing or being contrary. Just thinking outloud with a keyboard. Usually when somebody does the mass quote thing, its an argument. Speaking of which...

No argument intended. Just exchange of ideas.

If he finds this young Robert look alike who worships R'hollor who has been protecting Riverland orphans... Stannis would find a use for him, just like he did Davos. Provided Gendry can prove his worth. The reward would be an appropriate lordship.

As for Edric, I suspect he'll get Highgarden.

Stannis is going to need a lot of "new lords."

That's one big IF. I assume Stannis will have to make some new lords, and I bet he will, but I am not certain he will be in position to grant Edric Highgarden. Although, Florents have claim in it, and it would be great parallel with Joffrey granting Garlan Brightwater Keep...

There does seem to be a "one lordship per person" rule in effect. I mean, we might say Tommen inherits the Crown, Casterly Rock, and Storm's End, but he can't actually sit rule all three at once. Which means appointing castellans or yielding the lesser titles to other close relatives. Or, a more powerful king stripping away superflous claims and giving them to someone else.

Which is why, in unlikely case, Edmure and his child survive, Harrenhal will need someone to govern. And who is better than Sansa, with possible help from Blackfish?

[locke and key]

I think that harrenhal and the isle of faces are definitely gonna be more important down the line, so much has happened there in the story and it's got so much mysticism around it and has the ominous title of the seat of kings, t (it's also my favourite setting in the books) whether it's to do with the starks I don't know, perhaps in a repeat of history it could be where daenerys defeats euron

[Bran Vras]

I am delighted that Mladen has done so much with the clues I gathered in the Black Bat (which is only a 15 000 words side project within the Winterfell Huis Clos) and his own ideas. Fortunately he has been more concise that I have. So I feel obliged to contribute a post to this thread (I had already written on the subject in the forum here). Read the Black Bat if you want to learn more about the creature half-wolf, half-bat mentioned by Mladen in the OP.

Here are a few remarks that I didn't put in the Black Bat.

I chatted with our fellow boarder History of Westeros who discussed the Black Bat in his

. He directed me to a discussion on the Whent/Lothston genealogy. The idea came in this thread that perhaps the Targaryens gave Harrenhal to the Lothstons as a cadet (or perhaps bastard) branch. Lord Varys objected that any cadet branch of house Targaryen would have a dragon as sigil. Now comes the interesting point. Doesn't the large black bat of House Lothston recall Balerion, the Black Dread, who caused the downfall of Harren the Black? The imagery of the large leathery wings is there. (Of course bats and dragons are very different animals.) The similarity between bats and dragons has already been expressed by Mirri Maz Durr, when she described the wings of Dany's stillborn child. The legendary madness of the Targaryens might have been inherited by Mad Lady Lothstone who used to bath in blood – of course the Targaryen lineage has no exclusivity on madness. There is no proof of anything, but the association bat/dragon deserves to be kept in mind.

In the Black Bat, I came to the conclusion that GRRM has built his story so that Sansa would inherit Harrenhal. GRRM has made two moves in that direction: 1- Littlefinger has been awarded Harrenhal and 2- Sansa has taken the persona of Littlefinger's bastard. Only two more moves are needed : Sansa's legitimation and Littlefinger's demise. I am pretty certain that the wedding to Harry the Heir will not happen as Littlefinger predicts. Indeed, Littlefinger has described in detail the scene to Sansa. As we have all noted, any plan announced to the reader is doomed in Martin's fiction.

However, it doesn't seem at this point that Littlefinger will ask for Alayne's legitimation. Indeed, in the wedding scene forecast at the end of AFfC, Sansa is dressed as a Stark. In my analysis, I couldn't see yet how the legitimation will happen. But I am sure GRRM will have no trouble leading us there if he wants to. Isn't there a situational parallel between Sansa and (gasp) Ramsay?

I am not sure at all that Sansa's rule of Harrenhal, if it happens, will be a happy affair.

Brashcandy once sent me privately an elaborate discussion of the parallel between Sansa and Rhaella, both tormented by a king. Hence Bonifer Hasty's potential sympathy for Sansa. She told me that the idea originated from a post of tze in the Pawn to Player thead. I think it influenced what I wrote on the Holy Hundred in the Black Bat, and indirectly Mladen's OP. Thank you Brash!

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

If she follows this (excellently laid out) path and a few other things fall into place: Sansa could be the most important person in post asoif Westerous.

She'll all but rule the Riverlands and the Vale.

Assuming there is a stark in winterfell, she'll have a strong ally in the North.

If Tyrion takes the rock she will have a claim there. Even without him, she may have a claim in he own right. So that's Four of the great houses she can tie together. With a little work she can likely influence who they support in the end.

Not to mention Highgarden owes her one. Plus Margary is probably going to be willing to talk with Sansa. (An important first step to peace).

That leaves the stormylands. There's been a lot of talk around here about Gandry, eiter being a part of or ought right taking over the SLs. And who's Gandry's BFF? Arya.

The iron islands have a fair chance of being run or influenced by Theon or his sister. Either of whom will likely be open to listening to Winterfell and Sansa.

Dorn ...I can't help you with dorn.

But 6 out of 7 ain't bad for a little bird whos only good for singing. She could be the linchpin to a lasting post asoif peace. Everyone (but dorn) has at least some reason to trust and listen to her.

At the least she could bring them all to the table and make some kind of lasting peace or even help the IT consolidate the 7 back to the 1.

Also I may have just convinced myself that Sansa takes over in the end and brings about an age of knights ladies songs etc. just like she used to believe in.

Eta grammar and such. Sorry this is on my phone.

[juanml82]

That would all have some meaning if you point us some mistakes I made, which, sadly for what you want to say, you haven't... So, unless you have any argument...

Well, I did, but you'll refuse to see it. You do realize I agree Sansa has a chance of inheriting Harrenhall, but I only disagree that it's a certainty, right?

Also I may have just convinced myself that Sansa takes over in the end and brings about an age of knights ladies songs etc. just like she used to believe in.

Eta grammar and such. Sorry this is on my phone.

Sounds like a Disney ending

[Southron_Ambitions]

If you think this has a happy ending...

[Lady Pounce of Whiskerrun]

huge difference in social status between Alayne and Harry

Is the difference really that huge? Harry's grandmother was an Arryn, but he's a member of House Hardyng, about whom we don't really know/hear much of anything. Harry may not even be the heir to his house, as the wiki lists father as "Ser" rather than "Lord" Hardyng. There's also not a Hardyng among the Lords Declarant, although that group generally seems to represent the most influential noble houses of the Vale.

Alayne is a bastard, but her father is Lord of Harrenhal in his own right.

Since I believe that Sansa's identity is already known at least to Yohn Royce, given that he has been entire AGoT in KL. Plus there is that cryptic line of Anya Waynwood (“The girl is young and gently bred, and has suffered enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser.”) and the Yohn's line at the end of the LF's meeting with Lord declarants (Not all of us are fooled.). Who knows what might be going on with Vale lords? Thing is I don't believe that Sansa will marry either Harry or Littlefinger, but I do believe we'll see her out of her marriage with Tyrion. And the moment Cersei is deposed, Sansa is safe to reveal her identity.

My two cents, Lady Waynwood's comment isn't cryptic. She knows that Alayne's the daughter of a lord (a minor one by birth, but still a lord) and a Braavosi gentlewoman, raised by the Faith. That's all I get from "gently bred."

As for Yohn Royce's comment, I think it's a stretch to interpret it as a reference to Alayne's real identity. That aside, I personally find Littlefinger's response to Sansa's concerns about being recognized by Royce plausible: Sansa was much younger when seen at Winterfell (and since she's "flowered" since then, her matured features are probably noticeably different), and at the Hand's tournament, Sansa was just one face among many.

Yohn Royce does look at Alayne and ask, "Do I know you, girl?" but there's no follow up from him after it's explained that she's the Lord Protector's natural daughter. It's absolutely true, of course, that Bronze Yohn may know/suspect more than he lets on, but he's probably not thinking about or expecting to see Sansa Stark in the first place. I think what the Hound tells Arya about knights paying more attention to horses than to peasants could apply here (no offense to Lord Royce!). Once Royce has an explanation for who the girl is ("she must have some of Littlefinger's features, and that's why she seems familiar"), there's no real reason for further interest or concern on his part.

Again, he COULD suspect something more, but I don't believe there's strong evidence in the text to support thinking that.

[Mladen]

I am delighted that Mladen has done so much with the clues I gathered in the Black Bat (which is only a 15 000 words side project within the Winterfell Huis Clos) and his own ideas. Fortunately he has been more concise that I have. So I feel obliged to contribute a post to this thread (I had already written on the subject in the forum here). Read the Black Bat if you want to learn more about the creature half-wolf, half-bat mentioned by Mladen in the OP.

I am the one that should be thankful to you for landing me parts of your amazing work... Your side project about Sansa and Harrenhal is extremly well written and I recommend everyone to go and read it in full. As for me, being concise, I have to say it was more org, becaanisational issue than my desire... There is entire segment about Harrenhal curse I excluded, because I thought it would be too much :)...

In the Black Bat, I came to the conclusion that GRRM has built his story so that Sansa would inherit Harrenhal. GRRM has made two moves in that direction: 1- Littlefinger has been awarded Harrenhal and 2- Sansa has taken the persona of Littlefinger's bastard. Only two more moves are needed : Sansa's legitimation and Littlefinger's demise. I am pretty certain that the wedding to Harry the Heir will not happen as Littlefinger predicts. Indeed, Littlefinger has described in detail the scene to Sansa. As we have all noted, any plan announced to the reader is doomed in Martin's fiction.

However, it doesn't seem at this point that Littlefinger will ask for Alayne's legitimation. Indeed, in the wedding scene forecast at the end of AFfC, Sansa is dressed as a Stark. In my analysis, I couldn't see yet how the legitimation will happen. But I am sure GRRM will have no trouble leading us there if he wants to. Isn't there a situational parallel between Sansa and (gasp) Ramsay?

I agree with you, but as for asked legitimation, I actually see Littlefinger taking that step. Sansa cleverly noticed in her last POV in AFfC the problems of the wedding between her, apparent bastard, and the heir of Eyrie. And, that truly is the question. Why would Vale lords be so calm while LF is expanding his influence on the heir of the Vale too. There are two scenarios:

1. They want his demise and they want Harrenhall, and thus Riverlands included. We already hear from Genna Lannister that Lannisters should consider possibility that Robert would want to claim Riverrun one day. So, they will naturally be pushing LF to name Alayne his heiress, and to do that he will have to legitimize her.

2. This scenario is even more interesting. Yohn Royce recognized Sansa during his visit in the Vale (tze's great idea). So, they might pretend to be OK, knowing who Sansa is, working on LF's doom. Therefore, by allowing Harry/Alayne marriage, they will unite Vale, Riverlands, and North, and get rid of Littlefinger.

According to fashion, we know that plan LF presented us won't work. Littlefinger's demise is heavily foreshadowed in Sansa's snow castle scene. As for my idea of LF asking and getting decree that Alayne is legitimate, we have to look at court for this. Lannisters and Tyrells are in trouble, Aegon has landed and started his campaign. Dorne will most likely side with him, and we follow Fire Eater's predictions regarding Dance of dragons 2.0, even some powerful Reach houses will join Aegon, like Hightowers. The Crown will need alliance, and when Cersei hears that marriage between LF's bastard and heir to Vale will happen, and that she could benefit from it, I see her making Alayne legitimate. Can you just imagine the irony? This would be classic LF's move... Just like PW, doing it right under his enemies' noses.

I am not sure at all that Sansa's rule of Harrenhal, if it happens, will be a happy affair.

Interesting. Well, if I am right, Sansa might get the castle somewhere in TWoW, but then, and I discussed this with butterbumps, we'll have to face invasion of Others. Certainly Stannis' small force and what's left of Northern army couldn't be able to stop them, and the next station for them would be Riverlands. So, we might see Sansa playing her role in that war by opening Harrenhal for refugees. Perhaps(consider it crackpot), Harrenhal will be safe harbor for all (given the possible magic in its walls). Therefore, as butterbumps cleverly noticed, Sansa will enforce her two ruling philosophies "I would have given them bread", and "I will make them love me". I am not sure, but it does sounds good.

Brashcandy once sent me privately an elaborate discussion of the parallel between Sansa and Rhaella, both tormented by a king. Hence Bonifer Hasty's potential sympathy for Sansa. She told me that the idea originated from a post of tze in the Pawn to Player thead. I think it influenced what I wrote on the Holy Hundred in the Black Bat, and indirectly Mladen's OP. Thank you Brash!

I wasn't aware of Sansa/Rhaella parallel, and I am ashamed to admit that given that Rhaella is someone who is truly intriguing for me. Maybe I am wrong, but I bet we'll find thing or two about her, that will surpass the tragic notion of her character. As for tze, and her influence of us, I have to admit, there was her post on PTP, that I wasn't been able to find during the research about Sansa and Jon reigning the Kingdom of the North ad Riverlands as form of alliance. If anyone finds it, please post it. That is what I had in mind by House Stark of Harrenhal. Jon ruling from Winterfell and Sansa from Harrenhal.

Well, I did, but you'll refuse to see it. You do realize I agree Sansa has a chance of inheriting Harrenhall, but I only disagree that it's a certainty, right?

There is such thing as argumentative debate... Nothing is certain, this is just theory, but your inability to find holes, and yet criticize mine, and the work and opinions of others is inexplicable.

If you think this has a happy ending...

People use that quote in the wrongest possible way... I would like to see how this theory even suggests the happy ending for Sansa.

Is the difference really that huge? Harry's grandmother was an Arryn, but he's a member of House Hardyng, about whom we don't really know/hear much of anything. Harry may not even be the heir to his house, as the wiki lists father as "Ser" rather than "Lord" Hardyng. There's also not a Hardyng among the Lords Declarant, although that group generally seems to represent the most influential noble houses of the Vale.

Alayne is a bastard, but her father is Lord of Harrenhal in his own right.

He is heir of Eyrie, entire Vale and the title Warden of the North. First in line. And she is, bastard of Lord of Harrenhal. No matter who her father is, the difference in their statuses is huge.

As for Yohn Royce's comment, I think it's a stretch to interpret it as a reference to Alayne's real identity. That aside, I personally find Littlefinger's response to Sansa's concerns about being recognized by Royce plausible: Sansa was much younger when seen at Winterfell (and since she's "flowered" since then, her matured features are probably noticeably different), and at the Hand's tournament, Sansa was just one face among many.

That is all quite plausible, but then, Royce was in King's Landing during entire AGoT. There was feast after the tourney and Sansa went to court to see her father presiding. He had chances to see her many times. LF could be mistaken about this.

Certainly, we can't say either way is 100% sure. He might or might have not recognized her. There is too much ambiguity in his words so we could just say that he didn't.

[juanml82]

Alayne is a bastard, but her father is Lord of Harrenhal in his own right.

Yes, but let's keep in mind Mya Stone's father was the King and that didn't do anything to help her secure a marriage. Sure, so far, Alayne might inherit Harrenhal and the Riverlands if Littlefinger gets the Iron Throne to legitimize her. But should LF wed and have children in the future, Alayne becomes heir to nothing.

I think Lady Waynwood is thinking whether she can influence the Lord Protector of the Vale and, of course, remove a huge debt burden from her house.

[para]

I'm not sold on a bunch of details here.

One is whether Sansa would want Harrenhal. (She asked LF to give it to Walder Frey, so she's fully aware that it's supposed to be cursed.) In order for Sansa to break whatever curse is on Harrenhal she would knowingly risk becoming its latest victim.

Second the Harrenhal is not a great prize for Sansa to have. Part ruin, part economically unsustainable, even without a curse, it doesn't measure up to something like the Eyrie, Winterfell, Casterly Rock or just Riverrun.

And it doesn't even make the owner Warden of Whatever or Lord Paramount of This and That. As far as consolation prizes go for a girl who still probably just wants to go "home"... it's neither emotionally nor materialistically satisfying. Sansa as Queen of Westeros is materialistically satisfying, Sansa as maiden aunt to Rickon's children is emotionally satisfying. Sansa ruling a ruined castle, all alone, while whatever is left of her family is roasting marshmallows around King Rickon in New!Winterfell is actually really depressing.

Which brings me to point three: King Rickon. It's absolute speculation whether Rickon's plot will ever go somewhere. His direwolf is Shaggydog. Whether that naming is ironic or not has yet to be seen. But readers have little attachment to him, he's a toddler and his identity is harder to prove than (F)Aegon's. Even if he becomes the Winterfell heir, who is gonna be his regent? You think Sansa is gonna leave him to the tender care of whoever after witnessing LF plotting Sweetrobin's death...? She's gonna leave her baby brother in a ditch for a cursed ruin?

Hm. I think if Sansa gets a choice she won't take Harrenhal or will drop it like a hot potato the second she gets any chance of getting with whatever is left of her family. Of course that assumes that she will have the choice. But then if she doesn't get a choice then this brings us back to point 2. It's a depressing scenario.

[juanml82]

There is such thing as argumentative debate... Nothing is certain, this is just theory, but your inability to find holes, and yet criticize mine, and the work and opinions of others is inexplicable.

Holes such as your bias, your 'foreshadowing fever' to put it a name, your conviction of Sansa getting a happy ending and the fact that, should Edmure die (which is likely), might cause Sansa to claim the much richer prize of Riverrun?

However, if we want to sustain theories in "foreshadowing", there is a simpler one. The direwolves reflect their owners. Lady died and, therefore, it's foreshadowing Sansa's death. That's blunter and far more prominent than the amount of swords in the crown of the North and the amount of bats in the Whent's shield.

I know you're unlikely to "listen" to do this, but I'll make a try. Several years ago I was in a lecture given by film editor and sound designer Walter Murch. At some point during the lecture, the guy interviewing him made an analysis, not unlike many of those here looking for "foreshadowing" and "symbolism" about how a particular background sound in a particular scene of one of his movies was representative of the character state of mind, the narrative arc, etc. To everyone listening it was "oh, look at all the things he noticed! Of course Walter Murch put that on purpose! What a clever men they are". Finally, the interviewer finished his analysis, looking for confirmation or something. Murch, however, said something like "Well, no. I've just put that sound there and moved to the next thing. If you think so much about every little detail while doing a movie, you'll never end it. So, sometimes, you just have to get it done and move on"

Of course GRRM seems to have a different conception of time restraints than Hollywood producers and there are pieces of symbolism across ASOIAF. But he can't just think every single detail. He can't stop at every sentence and make sure every adjective, every noun and every description is foreshadowing something. Sometimes, a coat is just a coat and the number of bats in a shield are just the numbers of bats in a shield.

It's very likely a lot of the "foreshadowing" and "symbolism" you take for granted, and congratulate yourself for discovering, was never meant to mean whatever you think it means. But you won't listen to this and you'll carry on making theories and sharing them with people who think like you do about the series.

[Joe Pine]

I'm not sold on a bunch of details here.

One is whether Sansa would want Harrenhal. (She asked LF to give it to Walder Frey, so she's fully aware that it's supposed to be cursed.) In order for Sansa to break whatever curse is on Harrenhal she would knowingly risk becoming its latest victim.

Second the Harrenhal is not a great prize for Sansa to have. Part ruin, part economically unsustainable, even without a curse, it doesn't measure up to something like the Eyrie, Winterfell, Casterly Rock or just Riverrun.

And it doesn't even make the owner Warden of Whatever or Lord Paramount of This and That. As far as consolation prizes go for a girl who still probably just wants to go "home"... it's neither emotionally nor materialistically satisfying. Sansa as Queen of Westeros is materialistically satisfying, Sansa as maiden aunt to Rickon's children is emotionally satisfying. Sansa ruling a ruined castle, all alone, while whatever is left of her family is roasting marshmallows around King Rickon in New!Winterfell is actually really depressing.

Which brings me to point three: King Rickon. It's absolute speculation whether Rickon's plot will ever go somewhere. His direwolf is Shaggydog. Whether that naming is ironic or not has yet to be seen. But readers have little attachment to him, he's a toddler and his identity is harder to prove than (F)Aegon's. Even if he becomes the Winterfell heir, who is gonna be his regent? You think Sansa is gonna leave him to the tender care of whoever after witnessing LF plotting Sweetrobin's death...? She's gonna leave her baby brother in a ditch for a cursed ruin?

Hm. I think if Sansa gets a choice she won't take Harrenhal or will drop it like a hot potato the second she gets any chance of getting with whatever is left of her family. Of course that assumes that she will have the choice. But then if she doesn't get a choice then this brings us back to point 2. It's a depressing scenario.

Great post, I can see Sansa at the Eyrie or at Winterfell, certainly not at Harrenhal. Sansa's mother was a Tully, she'll know the connection, she'll know Baelish's title only came from the war of the five kings and as she learns the 'game of thrones' from him, she'll work on that.

It's a good point you make on Sansa being an influence on Rickon, the smooth to his rough.

Getting north for her is going to be the issue, away from Baelish, away from the the vale, if recognised as Sansa, how does she stay ahead of the Iron Throneband the Lannisters? Who protects or helps her?

I rather think that she'll stay in the vale for the north to come to her. 'Winter is coming' I guess and if the wall is to break then that pushes events eventually back to the Riverlands

[Veltigar]

Holes such as your bias, your 'foreshadowing fever' to put it a name,

I’m glad to see a phrase of mine being picked up :cheers:

Snip

You put it rather blunt. But I have to say that I agree 100% with you. Yes, there is a lot of symbolism and foreshadowing in this series and yes GRRM is a genius but he’s not the freaking Master of the Universe. Not every little detail has meaning, as you say sometimes “a coat is just a coat”. People just tend to go bonkers because we all care very deeply about the characters and we have so much time between books to speculate. And on a forum that effect just increases because it’s so easy to meet a kindred spirit and obsess together, thus spreading the “foreshadowing fever” even more (folie à deux anyone).

[Mladen]

I’m glad to see a phrase of mine being picked up :cheers:

You put it rather blunt. But I have to say that I agree 100% with you. Yes, there is a lot of symbolism and foreshadowing in this series and yes GRRM is a genius but he’s not the freaking Master of the Universe. Not every little detail has meaning, as you say sometimes “a coat is just a coat”. People just tend to go bonkers because we all care very deeply about the characters and we have so much time between books to speculate. And on a forum that effect just increases because it’s so easy to meet a kindred spirit and obsess together, thus spreading the “foreshadowing fever” even more (folie à deux anyone).

Gentlemen, if I may suggest, you could carry on discussion by opening another thread or by PMs. Unless of course you have something to say that is related to the topic at hand.

I'm not sold on a bunch of details here.

One is whether Sansa would want Harrenhal. (She asked LF to give it to Walder Frey, so she's fully aware that it's supposed to be cursed.) In order for Sansa to break whatever curse is on Harrenhal she would knowingly risk becoming its latest victim.

Second the Harrenhal is not a great prize for Sansa to have. Part ruin, part economically unsustainable, even without a curse, it doesn't measure up to something like the Eyrie, Winterfell, Casterly Rock or just Riverrun.

And it doesn't even make the owner Warden of Whatever or Lord Paramount of This and That. As far as consolation prizes go for a girl who still probably just wants to go "home"... it's neither emotionally nor materialistically satisfying. Sansa as Queen of Westeros is materialistically satisfying, Sansa as maiden aunt to Rickon's children is emotionally satisfying. Sansa ruling a ruined castle, all alone, while whatever is left of her family is roasting marshmallows around King Rickon in New!Winterfell is actually really depressing.

Which brings me to point three: King Rickon. It's absolute speculation whether Rickon's plot will ever go somewhere. His direwolf is Shaggydog. Whether that naming is ironic or not has yet to be seen. But readers have little attachment to him, he's a toddler and his identity is harder to prove than (F)Aegon's. Even if he becomes the Winterfell heir, who is gonna be his regent? You think Sansa is gonna leave him to the tender care of whoever after witnessing LF plotting Sweetrobin's death...? She's gonna leave her baby brother in a ditch for a cursed ruin?

Hm. I think if Sansa gets a choice she won't take Harrenhal or will drop it like a hot potato the second she gets any chance of getting with whatever is left of her family. Of course that assumes that she will have the choice. But then if she doesn't get a choice then this brings us back to point 2. It's a depressing scenario.

Interesting questions. Harrenhal is also materialistic satisfaction, but also it gives Sansa a freedom and control over her own life. With Harrenhal, she is neither claim nor anything else. As ruling Lady, Sansa gets the freedom to choose, and that is something she desires above all else.

As for Rickon, I think he will be guarded by Jon. We have seen what happened at NW, and I believe that after Jon's death, hell will break loose. I even think that we will even see the NW dissolved. Simply, with wildings, King's men and NW all confronting each other, I can see Jon taking the position of KitN, or even Rickon's Regent. That gives us Sansa freedom to pursue other goals. To rebuild her life. Vale isn't her home, and therefore Harrenhal is perfect place for it. I think that Sansa as ruling Lady of Harrenhal might actually work perfectly.

[Lady Pounce of Whiskerrun]

Yes, but let's keep in mind Mya Stone's father was the King and that didn't do anything to help her secure a marriage.

King Robert never acknowledged Mya; even she doesn't appear to know who her father is. Alayne, by contrast, has the Lord of Harrenhal saying, "here's my darling daughter."