House Stark of Harrenhal (long, but with TLDR summary)

[Lady Pounce of Whiskerrun]

You are right, but LF would also put something in that marriage. And Harrenhall isn't any castle, it's the largest castle in Westeros. If LF throws Harrenhall title with Alayne in the game, and he might, given his reluctance to take control of it, vale would also be getting something. Beautiful girl isn't enough, but heiress of Harrenhall, who will tomorrow be Lady Paramount of Riverlands is a big deal. The point of legitimizing Alayne is for LF to give something, and not to take. As for the risk, risk is the minimal, and beside when did LF played safe? I mean he is risk-taker by definition.

This may just be an issue of semantics, but I don't know that The Value is "getting something" just by having a Hardyng marry a woman who will one day inherit a castle in The Riverlands. While The Lords Declarant banded together to oppose Littlefinger, they are comprised of separate houses with their own individual interests. The possibility of having Harold Hardyng's second son (as an example) one day rule in Harrenhal doesn't seem like it should mean that much to Lord Redfort or Ser Symond Templeton; that situation doesn't enrich The Vale collectively, unless you want to argue that it raises the region's prestige...which I think would be a difficult case to make.

...maybe your point was just that Harrenhal makes Alayne a "better" match, which would make it harder for one of the Lords Declarant to object/to propose one of their daughters as a more enticing alternative. If so, I could see that being the case. But I'm still not clear on why the Vale lords' opinions matter--or, if they do matter, the problem of Littlefinger potentially wielding "too much" influence by 1) being Lord Protector of The Value and 2) marrying his daughter to Robert Arryn's heir remains anyway.

[Pod The Impaler]

Of the two Stark sisters, I always thought Arya was more likely to be the one to end up with Harrenhal. Her association with it is strong, her associations with death even stronger, and made herself part of its curse, but as a sort of enforcer of it. She is also more aligned with the Old Gods, and I think the curse is related to them in some way.

[juanml82]

Well, whatever the Lords of the Vale do about the marriage depends on the hold Littlefinger can have on them. I mean, if they end in a position to forcibly prevent the marriage, they would also be able to oust Littlefinger simply because they don't want him. Sure, the marriage may add insult to injury and legitimizing Alayne makes it a lot more palatable. If Harry the Heir has a brain, he's also likely to request it. In any event, the only way for Sansa to inherit Harrenhall that way is to remain Alayne for a long enough time and rule the place or, quite simply, for ever.

As for the Whent connection, I think it's the easier way for her to inherit. It depends on Edmure's continued existence. Because otherwise we have this:

The North:

Bran (who might never leave the cave)

Rickon (who would inherit if Bran doesn't leave the cave or if the war cements him as Stannis/Manderly/Someone else's figure head)

Sansa

Arya

Jon (who might jump to the top of the list pending on Robb's will and his current health condition)

The Riverlands (if the Starks win)

Edmure

Edmure's child

Whichever Stark is second to Winterfell

All the Starks continuing from there

Harrenhall (if the Starks win)

Not Edmure (because he's Lord of the Riverlands, and gets reinstated as Lord of Riverrun)

Edmure's second son, if any, because the first inherits Edmure's titles

The Starks who aren't inheriting Winterfell and, should Edmure and his line die, the Riverlands: If Bran remains in the cave, that's either Sansa or Arya, in that order. Or vacant, if Arya never reemerges publicly (let's say, if Arya Stark would end up chased by the FM for desertion)

The North (if the Starks loose)

Tricky one. Depends on how they loose. Apparently, Bolton would want Jeyne Poole, alias Arya Stark, to inherit, and would kill everyone else on top of her. If Rickon reemerges, the Iron Throne ought to validate him as Lord of Winterfell.

The Riverlands and Harrenhall (if the Lannisters win)

Petyr Baelish

Petyr Baelish legitimate children - which he has none, but might have in the future

Alayne Stone - as long as Petyr Baelish never marries nor has bastard boys and Sansa remains Alayne for too long, if not forever.

As for the curse, unless we have a "Seventeen years later" epilogue, we might never know.

[Florina Laufeyson]

The more I think about this, the less I'm convinced that Littlefinger will ask Cersei/Tommen to legitimize "Alayne."

The more i think about this, the less im convinced that Littlefinger wlll even get that far.

Littlefinger could plausibly end up petitioning Aegon instead of Tommen/Cersei. We all know the timelines are a bit wonky in the series, but Aegon is approaching at a very quick rate. I think its exceedingly likely that he will take KL by the next book.

But thats IF Littlefinger even lives that long, which is something i highly doubt to be honest. Hes Disk One Final Boss. Once he goes down, theres a lot of plot that moves forward.

[Dornishpenguin]

I always thought that the Vale nobility just assumed that Alayne was going to be legitimized considering that she may end up marrying HtH. Alayne is publicly acknowledged by her father and he's planning on marrying her into the upper ranks of Vale nobility, so it makes sense that they will think that she is on her way to formally becoming a Baelish .LF may just invite them to believe that, and if they question him, he can always claim that paperwork takes a while to be processed in KL. I doubt that he will put in a serious request for legitimization considering the risks involved, but others will think that he did.

If Sansa ends up inheriting Harrenhal due to her maternal heritage instead though, her LF may still have a use. He is one of the wealthiest men in Westeros and financial ruin helped drive families out of Harrenhal. Sansa could use LF's fortune to redo the castle (making it a bit more sustainable).

[Petyr Patter]

Great post, really enjoyed reading it.

Thoughts in no particular order...

1. Love the "bat winged wolf" find. I mean, there are only so many animals, and some are bound to be recycled, but maybe there is something going on here.
   
2. Possession, contrary to the cliche, is not 9/10ths of the law. However, Harrenhal could be claimed by "Alayne" through Baelish, but kept by Sansa through the maternal Whent lineage and the fact she already has it.
   
3. And it is also not unheard for a man's lands and titles to go to his wards should he die without heirs. I think it was the Hornwood estate that had two claimants, the bastard and the ward.
   
4. Cersei is DONE in King's Landing. Like, really done. If she wins her trial, the High Sparrow would still have the clout to insist she return to King's Landing and have no further say in affairs. Which is what everyone else of importance in the city would agree with. I mean Mace Tyrel just seems to outright want her head. Who controls Tommen after the Trials remain to be seen.
   
5. Alayne, no matter what, is still Sansa, who is still married to Tyrion. Thus, until death (or the very unlikely annulment) do they part, Sansa cannot marry again. Not to Harold, not to Littlefinger. Because if the truth ever came forward, and Sansa was seen often in court at King's Landing so somebody will recognize her eventually, then the second marriage would be unlawful.
   
6. Speaking of Tyrion, that marriage is the biggest obstacle to claiming Winterfell, because it would be seen as a shadow grab by the Lannisters which the others would never accept. The same would also be true for Harrenhal. The Riverlords probably have more reasons to hate Lannisters then even the Northmen. Sansa needs out of that marriage, or just as likely for Tyrion to make his peace with the Riverlords (and the North). The fact he killed Tywin, the guy who actually ordered the horrible pillaging of the Riverlands is a pretty good start, so this isn't out of the question by any means.
   
7. Like somebody else said, Sansa could never claim Casterly Rock as Tyrion's wife or widow. However, Tyrion could never be crowned "Queen of the North and the Trident" either. If Sansa is crowned queen, and her marriage with Tyrion sticks, she could have him claim Casterly Rock and the Riverlands.
   
8. Now, we are talking about a real kingdom here: North, Riverlands, Westerlands, and probably the Vale. Ruling out of Winterfell would be traditional, but it is pretty far away. Ah, but Harrenhall is nice and centrally located. A seat for kings indeed. The combined wealth might actually be enough to keep the thing presentable.
   
9. However, I still got to go with Arya as the one closest to Harrenahl, both from her time there and in the broader Riverlands, plus Nymeria's continued presence. Also, a legitimized Gendry could marry Arya (hey, I can wish for happiness) as part of Stannis's "we will make new Lords" campaign. If she wargs a bat, I'd say its a done deal. Not the Gendry part, the inherit Harrenhall part.
   
10. Wait, didn't the faceless men "bathe her face in blood" so she could wear a dead girl's skin/face? I mean, it was her own blood, but still, that sounds like Harrenhal imagery to me.
    

[Fire Eater]

Nice job Mladen, I think that LF will publicly name Alayne as his heir, which is easy considering he is the last of his line with no heirs to contest with her claim. I could see Sansa ruling as Lady of Harrnehal, possibly building new, smaller and more manageable castle that, like her snow castle, will be modeled after WF. I think she will be the Maiden Lady of Harrenhal like the Virgin Queen, Elizabeth; she won't get married again ever, especially after Sandor dies, but I don't think that rules out her having any romantic relationships or children. Hell, she was supposedly a bastard who inherited Harrenhal, so she could make use of that precedent for any natural children she has.

[Petyr Patter]

Another thought just struck me...

It has been speculated that Lysa and Petyr carried on their affair while both lived in King's Landing, and that Robbert Arryn is actually Littlefinger's bastard. Admittedly, proving his would be very, very difficult, but if Sansa (or anyone else) could do so, then Harold is already the Lord of the Vale (albeit underage and thus not in full authority). Stinks for Robert to have such an evil father... but under the current royal writ, he would be an heir to Harrenhal, certainly before "Alayne." He might actually be legitimized since Lysa and Petyr did marry, but I'm not sure if that's how "it" works. Regardless, he'd never leave the Vale alive.

OK, so somewhat tangential.

[Mladen]

Of the two Stark sisters, I always thought Arya was more likely to be the one to end up with Harrenhal. Her association with it is strong, her associations with death even stronger, and made herself part of its curse, but as a sort of enforcer of it. She is also more aligned with the Old Gods, and I think the curse is related to them in some way.

Well, between two sisters, Arya's connection with Harrenhal may be stronger, but Sansa's claim is the trump card here.

Well, whatever the Lords of the Vale do about the marriage depends on the hold Littlefinger can have on them. I mean, if they end in a position to forcibly prevent the marriage, they would also be able to oust Littlefinger simply because they don't want him. Sure, the marriage may add insult to injury and legitimizing Alayne makes it a lot more palatable. If Harry the Heir has a brain, he's also likely to request it. In any event, the only way for Sansa to inherit Harrenhall that way is to remain Alayne for a long enough time and rule the place or, quite simply, for ever.

As for the Whent connection, I think it's the easier way for her to inherit. It depends on Edmure's continued existence. Because otherwise we have this:

Legitimizing Alayne is something not just recommendable, but almost necessary. Sansa raised that issue when LF told her the plan. He has convinced Lady Waynwood, but not the others. And I am especially interested in what Yohn Royce has to say about it. As for inheritance, I believe we'll see Alayne more than we first assumed we will. Her original claim might be through Baelish, but once Lannisters are won, she could easily claim it as Stark. Now, as for succession line, it goes this way:

1. Edmure - already has Riverrun, likely to die by the end of ASOIAF.

2. Edmure's child - Riverrun's heir

3. Bran - staying with BR

4. Rickon - most likely ending up with Winterfell

5. Sansa - this is why I believe she will get it. No one before her in succession line is so open for Harrenhal like she is. She has no claim over Winterfell or Riverrun, but Harrenhal is emptied and it might easily be hers.

6. Arya - if she ever reemerges

7. Blackfish - ideally, he would be my first choice, but his claim is the weakest and not to mention lack of progeny and his age.

I always thought that the Vale nobility just assumed that Alayne was going to be legitimized considering that she may end up marrying HtH. Alayne is publicly acknowledged by her father and he's planning on marrying her into the upper ranks of Vale nobility, so it makes sense that they will think that she is on her way to formally becoming a Baelish .LF may just invite them to believe that, and if they question him, he can always claim that paperwork takes a while to be processed in KL. I doubt that he will put in a serious request for legitimization considering the risks involved, but others will think that he did.

If Sansa ends up inheriting Harrenhal due to her maternal heritage instead though, her LF may still have a use. He is one of the wealthiest men in Westeros and financial ruin helped drive families out of Harrenhal. Sansa could use LF's fortune to redo the castle (making it a bit more sustainable).

You perfectly summed it... Littlefinger is not marrying his bastard daughter for anyone, he is marrying her for the most desirable bachelor in the country. I mean, besides Harry, how many that good bachelors are in Westeros? OF the highest rank, which he, as heir of Eyrie and Vale is. Not many, I'll say. So, if LF thinks that all the other Lords won't demand something in return, he is being incredibly dumb. And since Sansa did point this problem out, I could easily see, LF, like many times before, playing Cersei to do his bidding.

Nice job Mladen, I think that LF will publicly name Alayne as his heir, which is easy considering he is the last of his line with no heirs to contest with her claim. I could see Sansa ruling as Lady of Harrnehal, possibly building new, smaller and more manageable castle that, like her snow castle, will be modeled after WF. I think she will be the Maiden Lady of Harrenhal like the Virgin Queen, Elizabeth; she won't get married again ever, especially after Sandor dies, but I don't think that rules out her having any romantic relationships or children. Hell, she was supposedly a bastard who inherited Harrenhal, so she could make use of that precedent for any natural children she has.

I planned to send you PM this morning about this... I also think that Ser Bonifer's presence at Harrenhal might be a notch in that direction - Sansa being Maiden Lady of Harrenhal. Yes, marriage and children would come eventually, but for the time being, I don't see anyone (besides Sandor, who I believe will die at the end, poor soul) whom I would like to see with Sansa.

Another thought just struck me...

It has been speculated that Lysa and Petyr carried on their affair while both lived in King's Landing, and that Robbert Arryn is actually Littlefinger's bastard. Admittedly, proving his would be very, very difficult, but if Sansa (or anyone else) could do so, then Harold is already the Lord of the Vale (albeit underage and thus not in full authority). Stinks for Robert to have such an evil father... but under the current royal writ, he would be an heir to Harrenhal, certainly before "Alayne." He might actually be legitimized since Lysa and Petyr did marry, but I'm not sure if that's how "it" works. Regardless, he'd never leave the Vale alive.

OK, so somewhat tangential.

I doubt it would ever happen. More than that, I also doubt that Sansa would expose that fact and put Robert in such danger. Then there is also, bits of foreshadowing suggesting that Dany will end up in Vale, and I believe in Dany paralleling Rhaenys' conquer of the Vale, by allowing young Arryn to ride a dragon with her.

[Arya kiddin']

Fantastic work Mladen. Congratulations and Kudos to you. Yes, it is a very plausible course. Many people would've had a problem with Sansa ruling the North, as it interferes with Rickon's claim. This solves it.

[Mladen]

Great post, really enjoyed reading it.

1. Love the "bat winged wolf" find. I mean, there are only so many animals, and some are bound to be recycled, but maybe there is something going on here.
   
   
2. Possession, contrary to the cliche, is not 9/10ths of the law. However, Harrenhal could be claimed by "Alayne" through Baelish, but kept by Sansa through the maternal Whent lineage and the fact she already has it.
   

What is really important in this theory is that Alayne Stone might get the castle, but at the end it is Sansa Stark who will keep it. Given that there are no longer living Whents, maternal line is important here. Plus, remember that maternal lines are important. Genna Lannister warns Jaime about Robert Arryn's claim on Riverrun that originates from his maternal line.

And it is also not unheard for a man's lands and titles to go to his wards should he die without heirs. I think it was the Hornwood estate that had two claimants, the bastard and the ward.

Alayne is more than ward. She is bastard daughter of the man who most likely won't have sons any time soon. Certainly, and I believe in it, that LF would try to procreate with Sansa, but I don't see that happening so easily any time soon. Also, there is that huge difference in social status between Alayne and Harry to be ignored.

Cersei is DONE in King's Landing. Like, really done. If she wins her trial, the High Sparrow would still have the clout to insist she return to King's Landing and have no further say in affairs. Which is what everyone else of importance in the city would agree with. I mean Mace Tyrel just seems to outright want her head. Who controls Tommen after the Trials remain to be seen.

I agree, but I also believe LF will play with her more. I don't think she will give up power that easily, and I can see LF playing with her brains, promising her united force of Riverlands and Vale... And with Aegon's rising, and Tyrell possible treachery, Dorne's hatred, she will most certainly accept LF's offer so willingly.

Alayne, no matter what, is still Sansa, who is still married to Tyrion. Thus, until death (or the very unlikely annulment) do they part, Sansa cannot marry again. Not to Harold, not to Littlefinger. Because if the truth ever came forward, and Sansa was seen often in court at King's Landing so somebody will recognize her eventually, then the second marriage would be unlawful.

Since I believe that Sansa's identity is already known at least to Yohn Royce, given that he has been entire AGoT in KL. Plus there is that cryptic line of Anya Waynwood (“The girl is young and gently bred, and has suffered enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser.”) and the Yohn's line at the end of the LF's meeting with Lord declarants (Not all of us are fooled.). Who knows what might be going on with Vale lords? Thing is I don't believe that Sansa will marry either Harry or Littlefinger, but I do believe we'll see her out of her marriage with Tyrion. And the moment Cersei is deposed, Sansa is safe to reveal her identity.

Speaking of Tyrion, that marriage is the biggest obstacle to claiming Winterfell, because it would be seen as a shadow grab by the Lannisters which the others would never accept. The same would also be true for Harrenhal. The Riverlords probably have more reasons to hate Lannisters then even the Northmen. Sansa needs out of that marriage, or just as likely for Tyrion to make his peace with the Riverlords (and the North). The fact he killed Tywin, the guy who actually ordered the horrible pillaging of the Riverlands is a pretty good start, so this isn't out of the question by any means.

Tyrion in no way can claim Winterfell, as Sansa can't claim CR. Also, Tyrion's desire is Casterly Rock, while Sansa has no intention of going against her brothers. That is why Harrenhal is such good choice for her. I do believe that Tyrion might negotiate peace with Riverlords and North, but in no way any pf them would allow him to claim any place of power over them. And I can't see how, through his marriage, Tyrion can do anything of this sort.

Like somebody else said, Sansa could never claim Casterly Rock as Tyrion's wife or widow. However, Tyrion could never be crowned "Queen of the North and the Trident" either. If Sansa is crowned queen, and her marriage with Tyrion sticks, she could have him claim Casterly Rock and the Riverlands.

Sansa and Tyrion are not united in any way, and Sansa won't enforce Tyrion's reign over anyone. If she get Harrenhal, that will be in her name, and hers alone.

However, I still got to go with Arya as the one closest to Harrenahl, both from her time there and in the broader Riverlands, plus Nymeria's continued presence. Also, a legitimized Gendry could marry Arya (hey, I can wish for happiness) as part of Stannis's "we will make new Lords" campaign. If she wargs a bat, I'd say its a done deal. Not the Gendry part, the inherit Harrenhall part.

Given that no one knows about Gendry's existence or his connection with Robert, except of Brienne and Varys, I don't see how Stannis would make the boy legitimate. As for Arya, I understand her connection with Harrenhal, but at the end, Sansa is much closer to getting it. Other than crackpot theorizing which would be in this case, be borderline fanfiction, I can't see how Arya would get Harrenhal. For Sansa, it's more than theory, it's actually pretty established possibility.

[juanml82]

Actually, it depends on whether Edmure lives and whether Bran leaves the cave to become Lord/King in the North.

Sansa has a reasonable good shot at Harrenhall if she lives nd the Starks win, but I wouldn't disregard the chance of Sansa dying or inheriting Riverrun and Arya getting Harrenhall.

In the Asoiaf world only winter is certain.

[Mladen]

Actually, it depends on whether Edmure lives and whether Bran leaves the cave to become Lord/King in the North.

Sansa has a reasonable good shot at Harrenhall if she lives nd the Starks win, but I wouldn't disregard the chance of Sansa dying or inheriting Riverrun and Arya getting Harrenhall.

In the Asoiaf world only winter is certain.

If Edmure lives, he has Riverrun, and I don't see that Bran's storyline leads anywhere near the position of KitN, especially given that he is greenseer. Also, if Martin wanted Sansa dead, he could have done that long time ago. There was no need of keeping her around if her end game is to die. No, she is going to survive the end of ASOIAF. As for Arya, I am not sure where she will be at the end, but there is that resonant Arya's sentence: "I am not lady".

[Petyr Patter]

FYI, Mladen, those thougths weren't meant to be arguments, except when they are, just me thinking outloud in response to your post.

Given that no one knows about Gendry's existence or his connection with Robert, except of Brienne and Varys, I don't see how Stannis would make the boy legitimate. As for Arya, I understand her connection with Harrenhal, but at the end, Sansa is much closer to getting it. Other than crackpot theorizing which would be in this case, be borderline fanfiction, I can't see how Arya would get Harrenhal. For Sansa, it's more than theory, it's actually pretty established possibility.

Actually, Stannis knows Gendry. He was with Jon Arryn when they investigated Robert's bastards. The smith actually said the Jon Arryn and Stannis were there to investigate the boy to Eddard. Admittedly, he doesn't know Gendry is part of a grass roots movement in the Riverlands, but I do suspect Stannis will travel south soon. I do believe Melisandre saw him on the Iron Throne in her visions, and that will come true somehow.

As for Arya inheriting Harrenhal, you were the one who pointed out the maternal line and its importance. Alayne may be closer due to the Tommen's decree awarding it to Littlefinger, but Arya is the one who actually spent time there.

[King of Winters]

If Sansa gets Harrenhal wouldn't that mean she would be the last Stark in Harrenhal? As it's said she's the Elizabeth I of ASOIAF and will therefore stay a virgin, so who would be Sansa's heir?

[juanml82]

If Edmure lives, he has Riverrun, and I don't see that Bran's storyline leads anywhere near the position of KitN, especially given that he is greenseer. Also, if Martin wanted Sansa dead, he could have done that long time ago. There was no need of keeping her around if her end game is to die. No, she is going to survive the end of ASOIAF. As for Arya, I am not sure where she will be at the end, but there is that resonant Arya's sentence: "I am not lady".

Right, but if Edmure dies and Bran never comes out of the cave, the claims to Riverrun and the Riverlands would be disputed between Edmure young kid (if he/she survives) and Sansa.

Or, if Edmure lives, gets reinstated and has a second son, he might want Harrenhall for his second son.

[Mladen]

FYI, Mladen, those thougths weren't meant to be arguments, except when they are, just me thinking outloud in response to your post.

I am sorry, but what does that even mean? I was just responding to your thoughts, nothing more. Sorry if that in any way offended you.

Actually, Stannis knows Gendry. He was with Jon Arryn when they investigated Robert's bastards. The smith actually said the Jon Arryn and Stannis were there to investigate the boy to Eddard. Admittedly, he doesn't know Gendry is part of a grass roots movement in the Riverlands, but I do suspect Stannis will travel south soon. I do believe Melisandre saw him on the Iron Throne in her visions, and that will come true somehow.

Yes, but if Stannis wants to appoint anyone of Robert's bastards, it certainly wouldn't be some poor kid from Riverlands. He has Edric Storm. Stannis could easily persuade Davos to return the boy with promise he won't do him any harm. Not to mention that Edric also has ties with Florents, and that Stannis might want to use that.

As for Arya inheriting Harrenhal, you were the one who pointed out the maternal line and its importance. Alayne may be closer due to the Tommen's decree awarding it to Littlefinger, but Arya is the one who actually spent time there.

Maternal line is important, and it works also for Sansa. As I said many times, Alayne will get the castle, but Sansa is the one that will keep it, by revealing her identity and exercising her birtright. In any way, Sansa is closer to Harrenhal than Arya. Also, they both spent time in Winterfell, that doesn't mean either one of them will claim Winterfell.

If Sansa gets Harrenhal wouldn't that mean she would be the last Stark in Harrenhal? As it's said she's the Elizabeth I of ASOIAF and will therefore stay a virgin, so who would be Sansa's heir?

For the time being, I don't see her getting married, due to marriage with Tyrion. But, I see the annulment somewhere in the future, after which Sansa will be free to marry whomever she wants.

Right, but if Edmure dies and Bran never comes out of the cave, the claims to Riverrun and the Riverlands would be disputed between Edmure young kid (if he/she survives) and Sansa.

Or, if Edmure lives, gets reinstated and has a second son, he might want Harrenhall for his second son.

Edmure's child vs Sansa? Who do you think will win that battle? The Frey spawn no one but doomed Freys will follow, or the girl with full force of Vale, and support of the North and Riverlands behind her. Also, if Edmure lives, and Sansa is already taken the castle, it is up to their King to decide who gets it. And that would be King in the North. I believe that Sansa's snow castle scene from ASoS, points us in direction she will rebuild some castle, and it easily could be Harrenhal. That's why she will be granted Harrenhal, if that question is ever posed.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Very nice work Mladen (and company :)) I read the whole thing and as always am in awe of all the work you put into these things. I have no doubt that LF's endgame as far as Sansa is concerned is closely tied to genealogy (what else could be on those tapestries??) and I agree that the HtH marriage is a sham. I love how you've connected all the pieces here, with the history of Harrenhal and the all the symbolism surrounding Sansa. You've also reminded me of my former conviction that Edmure Tully's days are numbered, something I forgot in a fit of irrational exuberance during my recent GNC analysis, so many thanks for that ;)

[juanml82]

Edmure's child vs Sansa? Who do you think will win that battle? The Frey spawn no one but doomed Freys will follow, or the girl with full force of Vale, and support of the North and Riverlands behind her. Also, if Edmure lives, and Sansa is already taken the castle, it is up to their King to decide who gets it. And that would be King in the North. I believe that Sansa's snow castle scene from ASoS, points us in direction she will rebuild some castle, and it easily could be Harrenhal. That's why she will be granted Harrenhal, if that question is ever posed.

Edmure second hypothetical child could be the son of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, if the title still exists by the end of the series. We don't know what's GRRM's end game. There might not be a King in the North by the end. Sansa might not end up with the support of those three regions. Sansa might die during ADOS or even TWOW.

She is in the Harrenhall succession line, there is no denying on that. But I wouldn't try to claim this or that is the end game.

[Mladen]

Edmure second hypothetical child could be the son of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, if the title still exists by the end of the series. We don't know what's GRRM's end game. There might not be a King in the North by the end. Sansa might not end up with the support of those three regions. Sansa might die during ADOS or even TWOW.

She is in the Harrenhall succession line, there is no denying on that. But I wouldn't try to claim this or that is the end game.

So, baseless hypotheses trump dozens of pieces of foreshadowing, textually proved and logically plausible theory? Not to mention that if Edmure gets son, he is dead man, remember? You wouldn't certainly try to claim anything regarding the end game, but given your thoughts I also wouldn't suggest that.