Independent George Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Marty's D made Shawne Merriman look All-WorldI wouldn't necessarily credit Marty with that - Merriman really was great until his knee injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaarioKnowsBest Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 He did have the good year with Norv i still thought he was overrated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime L Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Well, given the thread title, I thought it would be appropriate to close it out on a subject I've thought long and hard about: is Marty Schottenheimer the most underrated coach in NFL history?Yes. I've felt he was hugely underrated for years and when you lay it all out there I think it's a very strong case he may be the most. Getting fired after that 14-2 season and the Marlon McCree playoff game was probably the most insane firing of all time. Replacing him with Norvilicious, among the great losers all time as a HC is an even greater indignity. They had that game completely won if McCree just gets down after that INT. I'm glad others remember that.What people forget is that 2004 playoff game against the Jets that the Chargers lost because Nate Kaeding (the bizarro Vinatieri) couldn't make a 40 yard field goal that would've won it for them.Has anyone ever been more snakebitten in the playoffs than Marty? Marlon McCree, Nate Kaeding, the fumble, the drive. It's not that he can't win in the playoffs, it's that he's the unluckiest dude to ever coach a playoff game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Independent George Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Getting fired after that 14-2 season and the Marlon McCree playoff game was probably the most insane firing of all time. Replacing him with Norvilicious, among the great losers all time as a HC is an even greater indignity. They had that game completely won if McCree just gets down after that INT. I'm glad others remember that.How does it compare to Snyder firing him so he could hire Spurrier? How you remember that 2001 Redskins team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaarioKnowsBest Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 I remember the atmosphere after that 14-2 season. There was so much ridicule of "MartyBall" and "he can't win a big one" attitude from the media and fans.Most people were thinking LT2 and Gates would take them all the way if old school Marty wasnt holding them back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime L Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 How does it compare to Snyder firing him so he could hire Spurrier? How you remember that 2001 Redskins team?You're right That's arguably more insulting though Spurrier at least was a hot commodity whereas Norv had just finished a disastrous tenure as Raiders HC. At the time I remembered that 2001 team as boring. Schottenheimer got rid of all the big name free agents and they started 0-5. Still remember that MNF game against the Cowboys when both teams were 0-4. But now I look back at the fact he pulled an 8-8 season out of that horrifically untalented roster (which was the result of him purging the team of all its overpriced aging talent and imposing a rare year of fiscal discipline on the Skins) and Tony Banks is nothing short of amazing. I remember, in a rare bit of bravado, him crowing to the media how this shows "he's a pretty good coach" which I think infuriated Snyder. Think he was fired almost immediately after that for the ol' ball coach. Of course he then went to San Diego and built what became one of the NFL powers for the better part of a decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 At the time I remembered that 2001 team as boring. Schottenheimer got rid of all the big name free agents and they started 0-5. Still remember that MNF game against the Cowboys when both teams were 0-4. But now I look back at the fact he pulled an 8-8 season out of that horrifically untalented roster (which was the result of him purging the team of all its overpriced aging talent and imposing a rare year of fiscal discipline on the Skins) and Tony Banks is nothing short of amazing. I remember, in a rare bit of bravado, him crowing to the media how this shows "he's a pretty good coach" which I think infuriated Snyder. Think he was fired almost immediately after that for the ol' ball coach.Boring is the word for it. The Redskins were just terrible early on, and I remember that MNF game too, my roommates and I were calling it the Toilet Bowl. Then it seemed like we mostly turned things around, and managed to beat a few pretty solid teams on the way to our 8-8 finish. Schottenheimer was cooking a pretty good meal, there was no sizzle, and Snyder hated that. So he brought in the 'ol ballcoach, who quickly discovered that his "brilliant" offensive schemes were mostly just a matter of having a more talent than any but the best defenses in college. But with the Skins having no quarterback to speak of and a second rate offensive line, that was not going to work. In fact, by the second year, the only wins Spurrier could get were against teams that inexplicably chose not to blitz.But we were talking about Schottenheimer, and here i got diverted over to Spurrier, a far inferior coach. And that's the problem with old Schotty. He may be good, but he often rubs people the wrong way and he isn't terribly likeable or exciting or even memorable. I'm sure that for an organization like the Giants or Steelers (you know, that prefers wins over headlines) that would never be a problem. But no one would ever say that about the Dan Snyder Redskins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Independent George Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 I'm looking at that roster now, and I can't help but think that they might have competed for a while had Schottenheimer remained and imposed some discipline in the front office. They probably don't trade away 7 draft picks in 2003-4. Hell, they probably also don't trade away Champ Bailey. I have to imagine that 2002 draft going a lot better for them, too.The young versions Champ Bailey, Chris Samuels, Antonio Pierce, Fred Smoot, and LaVar Arrington could have been a great young nucleus to build around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Storm Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Boring is the word for it. The Redskins were just terrible early on, and I remember that MNF game too, my roommates and I were calling it the Toilet Bowl. Then it seemed like we mostly turned things around, and managed to beat a few pretty solid teams on the way to our 8-8 finish. Schottenheimer was cooking a pretty good meal, there was no sizzle, and Snyder hated that. So he brought in the 'ol ballcoach, who quickly discovered that his "brilliant" offensive schemes were mostly just a matter of having a more talent than any but the best defenses in college. But with the Skins having no quarterback to speak of and a second rate offensive line, that was not going to work. In fact, by the second year, the only wins Spurrier could get were against teams that inexplicably chose not to blitz.But we were talking about Schottenheimer, and here i got diverted over to Spurrier, a far inferior coach. And that's the problem with old Schotty. He may be good, but he often rubs people the wrong way and he isn't terribly likeable or exciting or even memorable. I'm sure that for an organization like the Giants or Steelers (you know, that prefers wins over headlines) that would never be a problem. But no one would ever say that about the Dan Snyder Redskins.I think this is the biggest problem with him getting a new job. He is a good coach, but rubbed the owners, media, and some of the players on the team the wrong way. Despite the playoff failures he has a great record and makes his team better. If the owners liked him better, he would be a coach right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime L Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Hell, they probably also don't trade away Champ Bailey.Can I just use this as a jumping off point to express what is now a decade's worth of regret for that Bailey/Portis trade back in 2004? I remember making a Stockholm Syndrome defense of the trade at the time swept up in the excitement of Gibbs coming back to town and not fully grasping the relative fungibility of RBs back then.. Not to say Clinton Portis wasn't great for the Skins in isolation - I freaking loved the way he played. He wasn't a special back like LdT and AP are special but he was very good, tough and a helluva pass blocker.But Champ Bailey has been, what, top 3 at his position for over a decade? He came into the league 3 years before Portis and 3 years after Portis had to retire due to becoming a beaten up shell of himself, Champ was still playing at a Probowl level for the Broncos. I may be misremembering but if I think back to that 2005 playoff game against the Patriots I remember it as Champ almost singlehandedly winning that game. Or at least the extent a CB can contribute to winning a game. And this wasn't just any game...it was the first time Brady ever lost in the playoffs. They seemed damn basically unbeatable at that point. But I don't remember Jake Plummer beating them, I remember Champ Bailey beating them.The guy has been a top 3 CB for the better part of, what, 13 years now? He's a sure first ballot Hall of Famer but he's kinda under the radar in spite of that. Just thinking about him because he hasn't suited up for the Broncos yet this year and this might be the end of him as a probowl corner(though he could presumably still be a productive safety for years because he's smart as hell and a helluva tackler). The Skins coulda used him for every one of those 13 years. It's just depressing watching the Skins with DeAngelo Hall out there who for every play he makes that causes him to crow and start beating his chest, there's 7 where he's burnt like toast. I miss the understated excellence of Champ. Skins coulda been set a corner for 30 years between him and Darrell Green. Anyway, just something I been thinking about awhile. Has anyone had a more underrated career than Champ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaarioKnowsBest Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Eric Allen maybe for cornerbacks, I rarely heard him mentioned even in his playing days.He was shutdown but always overshadowed by Deion Sanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Has anyone had a more underrated career than Champ?And yet I still consider that only the second worst secondary move the Redskins have made in the past ten years. Because that title goes to the Adam Archuleta/Ryan Clark debacle. For those who don't remember, Ryan Clark was once a member of the Washington Redskins. He was young, talented and underpaid for the Skins, but he was a strong special teamer and in 2005 showed signs of real improvement next to Sean Taylor. This is a young guy (he was 25 at the time), no ego, tons of upside, and he WANTED to stay. What do we do? We let him walk, because we want to sign Adam Archuleta.Yes, former Pro Bowler Adam Archuleta, who we signed to the richest deal ever (at the time) for a safety. Oh wait, I just checked, Adam Archuleta never even made a pro bowl. But he was a big name because he played for the Rams. That's right, he was one of the guys you think about when you think about those great Rams teams. What's that you say? Nobody thinks about defensive players when they think about the Rams? Well, he was there, a major part in that defense that led the Rams to the Super Bowl win in 1999. Oh wait, he didn't join the team until 2001. But he was on that team, and people remember his name, so he must be better than the nondescript Ryan Clark. Except he was actually quite terrible, was two years older, had a history of injury, and didn't even make it through a single season as a starter because he kept getting burned. Highest paid safety in the league, and can't keep from getting burned deep...sounds about right.But nothing became of Ryan Clark right? Well, except that he went to the Steelers and has been their starting free safety ever since. And has started in two Super Bowls for them since then, and made the pro bowl. He is still there now. As opposed to Adam Archuleta, or as Redskins fans like to call him, Adam Fucking Archuleta, who only played one year in Washington, and was out of the league by 2008.So, if we're going to have a quick rundown of secondary misfortunes in Washington in the past ten years:1. Sean Taylor. RIP.2. Ryan Clark for Adam Archuleta swap3. Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis trade (at least we got something)4. Carlos Rodgers is run out of town for poor hands, goes to SF, records 6 interceptions in his first year.5. Laron Landry's ankle never seems to heal. Except when he goes to NYJ, earns Pro Bowl spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Independent George Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Has anyone had a more underrated career than Champ?Bryant Young immediately comes to mind. Dana Stubblefield won defensive POY in 1997, but the Niners happily let him walk so they could extend Bryant Young. He rarely earned press accolades or Pro Bowl honors, but the Niners never let him come close to free agency during his entire 14-year career - even after a horrific, potentially career-ending leg injury on MNF. He was just too valuable to let go of.Robert Smith was one hell of a running back for many years. He had power, speed, ran great routes, and could block, but was generally overlooked playing in Minnesota. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Bryant Young immediately comes to mind. Dana Stubblefield won defensive POY in 1997, but the Niners happily let him walk so they could extend Bryant Young. He rarely earned press accolades or Pro Bowl honors, but the Niners never let him come close to free agency during his entire 14-year career - even after a horrific, potentially career-ending leg injury on MNF. He was just too valuable to let go of.Robert Smith was one hell of a running back for many years. He had power, speed, ran great routes, and could block, but was generally overlooked playing in Minnesota.Didn't he only play for like 5 or 6 years and retire after his breakout season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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