Sansa_Stark Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Kevan is no worse than Robb imo. He didn't mistreat Sansa and he was shocked by Joff's cruelty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 I mean, Robb did want to ally with Balon to sack and murder Lannisport. I would say both are equally ruthless in war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherAnduin Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 He has served his House and liege - that's considered a good thing in Westeros, as Stannis Baratheon could tell youActually Stannis called large scale murder of smallfolk "evil." He himself doesn't believe in following his lord as he defied the immoral Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 All of Aerys' Kingsguard ^This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Kevan is no worse than Robb imo. He didn't mistreat Sansa and he was shocked by Joff's cruelty.He didn't care for Sansa just like every Lannister he also sat with Tywin plotting to force her to marry into the family that murdered her father. He's as horrible as all the other LannistersAnd he knew Joffery was a horrible person yet gladly fought to keep the Kingdom and thousands of lives into his sadistic hands. I honestly believed that Keven knew of the twincest for awhile now like Tyrion but didn't care. He's still guilty in stealing a crown and murder of thousands because the Lannisters went to war because of a lie they started, Keven knew it was a lie so he is not a good man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 I think I have to add Jaime here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Dayne's Honor Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 I think I have to add Jaime here.yes I see Jaime as Kevan but Jaime let the circumstances that surrounded his family and his deeds that it made him a cynic. To me Jaime was a good man forced to become a bad man and now he is going through his redemption arc which will make him the man he is supposed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 I think I have to add Jaime here. Of course you do. He only crippled a child and murdered some people to teach Ned a lesson, but who cares, as long as he didn't directly harm Jon the Chosen One, he's good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 yes I see Jaime as Kevan but Jaime let the circumstances that surrounded his family and his deeds that it made him a cynic. To me Jaime was a good man forced to become a bad man and now he is going through his redemption arc which will make him the man he is supposed to be. Exactly. Thank you for getting the point. Genna told him so there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak... and he knows that he was a thug before, he admits it That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but somewhere along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 yes I see Jaime as Kevan but Jaime let the circumstances that surrounded his family and his deeds that it made him a cynic. To me Jaime was a good man forced to become a bad man and now he is going through his redemption arc which will make him the man he is supposed to be.How was Jamie forced to become a bad man? What event in Jamie's life had him become a sisterfucker, child murdering, war starting, murderer? And no killing Aerys should not have transformed Jamie into such a immoral person who is incapable of feeling some type of regret for his life changing actions. Jamie is a narcissistic asshole who plunged a continent into a civil war and to blame it on anything besides Jamie is bullshit. Jamie has never been a good man and any bad situation he is in is of his own making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Forgot, would you consider Ned Stark's tenure as Hand to be "service to a bad cause?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Forgot, would you consider Ned Stark's tenure as Hand to be "service to a bad cause?"No, because Ned was in service to the realm and the realm wasn't corrupt the people running it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mediterraneo Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Of course you do. He only crippled a child and murdered some people to teach Ned a lesson, but who cares, as long as he didn't directly harm Jon the Chosen One, he's good.David Selig, thanks for the reality check, I was about to agree with Jon's Queen Consort.I'm such a Jaime's fanboy.But I would say that that Jaime's actions ant intentions as a military leader are "cleaner" than most of the other leaders, like young Jon Connington's. Like Edmure, in a way.He tryes to pacify the Riverlands being fair with the losers (or momentary losers).He doesn't burn people, he doesn't use the worst pillagers (well it has to be said that they would be politically counter-productive in this fase, though) and even his role in the first, destructive campaign he was a subordinate leader, whose responasbilities mostly concentrated in the high intensity military operations against the Tully's military strenght and military objectives. I totally agree with a main current in this thread: it is very difficult to analize coldly and find a "just" cause in Westerosi civil wars. Feudal lords ravage the land in answer for percieved or real slights to their honor and interests, often acting on very uncomplete or incorrect premises.Without being a close eyed supporter of a side, it is difficult to justify all the actions of its armies or its leaders. This can lead to a misleading idea: as they are all very guilty, no one is really guilty. They are not innocent because of the their context. They are the ruling class that exploits this violent society to rule and submit the lower classes, the vast majority of the population, and that calls "right" the result of the power balance or imbalance. They are enjoying the consequences of the system, they are actually trying to enforce this system to maintain their position of violent, armed privilege.They are all involved, and no one is truly a good person. (¿¡Dondarrion vive, la lucha sigue!?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Except that he isn't considered a good man in his culture by the vast majority of people there - the smallfolk who get terrorised by him and the "mad dogs" he commanded. Some of the entitled scumbags among the ruling class like Varys or Jaime may consider Kevan a good man, but that doesn't mean much. Do you have some quotes of Westerosi people talking about Kevan like he is a bad man? Because I can't remember any. Contrary to popular belief I do think that the smallfolk are not very knowable about the Lannister chain of commands and probably hate the people who actually do the terrorizing, rather than the middle man who goes between the commanding lord and the guys who do the practical stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Do you have some quotes of Westerosi people talking about Kevan like he is a bad man? Because I can't remember any. Contrary to popular belief I do think that the smallfolk are not very knowable about the Lannister chain of commands and probably hate the people who actually do the terrorizing, rather than the middle man who goes between the commanding lord and the guys who do the practical stuff. What's that got to do with anything? Those smallfolk who know surely consider him a evil scumbag. That was the point. Whether most of them know is irrelevant. Who considers Kevan a good men? A handful of entitled jerks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mediterraneo Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 ...Jamie has never been a good man and any bad situation he is in is of his own making.Out of theme but false. We could beat this to the death and for a few posts more, but we should do that in another thread.Of course, I admitted three posts ago fanboying him. But that's not an excuse, everybody should be, and will when I'll open them the eyes. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarrelRoll42 Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Right!! Kevan Lannister was a horrible man who worshiped a evil SOB. The fact that he said Tywin was a just man was so wrong it's fitting that he died the same way as the man he worshiped for most of his life.I clapped when Kevan died he was never a good man he knew how his niece and nephew breed bastards and put them on the throne yet fought for them to illegally keep the throne. His death was most deserved. It's very...grey. I hate to bring up show stuff but Tywin's introduction speech to Jamie is very relevant. It's all all about the family name (even if Tommen and Myrcella were "Baratheons"). Expecting Kevan to out Cersei and Jamie and most likely condemn her and the children to death while permanently staining that family legacy is a big case of incorrectly applying a reformed modern perspective. You're basically asking him to go against hundreds/thousands of years of established cultural conditions and societal norms. Much in the same way that a mother would protect her child even if she knew he was a wanted criminal. Blood is thicker than water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 He didn't care for Sansa just like every Lannister he also sat with Tywin plotting to force her to marry into the family that murdered her father. He's as horrible as all the other LannistersAnd he knew Joffery was a horrible person yet gladly fought to keep the Kingdom and thousands of lives into his sadistic hands.I honestly believed that Keven knew of the twincest for awhile now like Tyrion but didn't care. He's still guilty in stealing a crown and murder of thousands because the Lannisters went to war because of a lie they started, Keven knew it was a lie so he is not a good man 2.He didn't really know Joff was terrible until he went to King's Landing himself. Whenever Joff wanted to serve Sansa Robb's head Kevan became shocked.3. No proof. I don't think Kevan really believed until after the BoBW and had never seen Joff beforehand. Its not as though he knew he was stealing the crown. Also, he was protecting his family by fighting against Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guillotine Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Kevan was the one to organise the "foragings". While the Mountain, Lorch and Hoat were the ones leading the murpillapers in the field, he was the one to issue them their orders. That's called "Nuremberg defense". He didn't despise it as well. Never showed any remorse. And no, I'm not going to call someone who organised a WoS (especially of his own niece) a good man. Kevan Lannister= Reinhard Heydrich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jslay427 Posted October 2, 2013 Author Share Posted October 2, 2013 Forgot, would you consider Ned Stark's tenure as Hand to be "service to a bad cause?"No, Ned's cause was serving the realm, which was technically ruled by Robert, who let his counselors do all the heavy lifting.Roberts rule was brought on by right of conquest, a conquest that happened due to Aerys actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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