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Stubby

R + L = J v 63

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Could be Blackfyre (which is a popular opinion) or a dragon's egg, sure.

I'm in the camp that thinks Illyrio gave Dany the eggs so that 1. Drogo knew he got what he paid for and 2. the eggs could be sold for a lot to get ships for the Dothraki when the time came. I also think that they were Targ family stash eggs (and how delicious -- Varys and Illyrio giving a "fuck you" to the Targs by having them unwittingly sell their own family's eggs), and that if Illyrio had three to fork over to Dany to buy ships, he has at least one that's for Aegon.

Based on what? The family has been trying for more than 100 years to hatch them with failure every single time, and Dany hatching them relied on a string of instances -- her successfully getting pregnant, Drogo getting injured, Dany making the deal with MMD, the funeral pyre -- that Illyrio couldn't possibly have foreseen or controlled.

They weren't given to her out of ignorance, but they weren't given to her with the expectation that they would hatch, either. I think they were intended to be used to purchase transportation and/or sellswords.

That probably was the real reason, insofar as Illyrio doesn't seem to do anything without self-interest.

I just assumed he gave them to Daenerys as a sort of consolation prize because they would be meaningful to a Targaryen princess and she wasn't exactly thrilled with her marriage to the Khal at that point. He's not complete without sentiment. Although, given how much Daenerys treasured the eggs, there were no guarantees that she would sell the eggs for any reason, not that Illyrio could have known that. He probably figured Khal Drogo or Viserys would make her sell them for ships or gold at some point.

But your main point I agree with - that Illyrio could not have foreseen the series of events that led to the dragons being miraculously hatched.

On the second speculation, that Illyrio has an egg set aside for fAegon, I'm not so sure. Even if he gave Dany the eggs to sell, what purpose would they serve for fAegon, apart from selling it? And wouldn't he have given Aegon the egg as a young boy to take along on his journey if that was the purpose? I really think Illyrio thought the eggs were useful for currying favor with Daenerys and/or Khal Drogo because they were expensive trinkets that would make her happy or could be sold, but were otherwise impractical.

Dragon fire hatches dragon eggs: that's the short of it. Perhaps in the absence of a dragon, we require the feminine element. Dany plus Mirri Maz Duur in the present instance. But dragons are neither male nor female (Aemon), and dragons had to have some way of hatching dragon eggs in the wild before the Valyrians tamed them (with "blood magic and sorcerous horns".)

I assume that along with the dragons themselves, the knowledge and means of hatching the eggs disappeared in the Dance of the Dragons (Aegon III was only a boy when that war ended, and he may not have been told, or perhaps the small dragon that was left to him died before it could produce the fire needed to hatch an egg.)

This is an interesting hypothesis. Perhaps the dance of the dragons that led to female Targs being denied succession to the throne, led to the practice of giving the dragon eggs only to male Targaryen children... and perhaps, inadvertently, that led to the failures in trying to hatch them. Maybe it does take a feminine element, some kind of mother figure to hatch them in the absence of a mother dragon or magic involving dragon fire.

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Not to mention the possibility that Bran saw dragons stirring in Asshai, was it? So there's possibly wild dragons out there, still, and those can only hatch themselves as well.

Makes you wonder how long after laying the eggs the dragons hatch them themselves? Do they leave the nest and come back later, and for Targ dragons that meant they'd already taken the eggs away? Or do the dragons simply not hatch them easily in captivity, as is seen with some zoo animals?

I'm still hoping against all hope the "dragon" that Bran saw in the smoke of Winterfell was Jons dragon being freed :drool:. It was likely just symbolic though.

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Still we have Elaena's egg to deal with, she being second generation after the Dance of the Dragons...

I agree though with the feminine element in the hatching alchemy. It is both symbolically potent and narratively coherent. Not to mention the irony of a world where power is denied women while residing in their very essence...

Yes, and from a thematic standpoint, Martins use of irony in this is especially relevant.

The male Targaryens were trying to achieve something in terms of acquisition of power that needed the feminine component that was left out of the equation, again, going back to the themes of balance.

Until the interference of Westerosi traditions, perhaps Valaryian women not only figured equally in the line of succession, but it may have also been matriarchal.

(Glad your back). :kiss:

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I didn't see your theory about Varys finding the dragon eggs in the Red Keep. Nice one. :cheers:

Now, about (f)Aegon's egg, do you think Aegon is aware of it?

The reason I ask is that if he had one and knew about it, why not try to hatch it?

After all, IIRC he Varys and Illyrio know about Dany and how she was able to hatch her 3 dragon eggs.

Why not try to hatch his, just for purposes of insurance?

As another aside, who are the Giants? :drool:

Sorry for intruding with something that is not exactly the topic of the thread, but your post gave me a thought that I haven't been able to understand for a while: Illyrio and Varys gave 3 eggs to Dany (and now we are presuming that there is another for reappeared Aegon and for Jon, if he is Rhaegar's child), as if they knew that she would be able to hatch them, which is always connects in my mind with something Varys said to Tyrion (if I remeber it correctly) about how he was made a eunuch: somebody used him for a sacrifice and he heard a voice from the flames. My point is: what if he knew she would be able to bring dragons back, because of what he heard in the flames that day.

I also thought that it is a little bit strange that Illyrio and Varys said that Dany and her brother are to be outsiders, pawns in their hands, but why did they give her those eggs in the first place then?

By the way, I like the idea of Jon's dragon egg existing and being hidden in the crypt.

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Still we have Elaena's egg to deal with, she being second generation after the Dance of the Dragons...

I agree though with the feminine element in the hatching alchemy. It is both symbolically potent and narratively coherent. Not to mention the irony of a world where power is denied women while residing in their very essence...

:bang: of course. My overheated brain placed her in the generation prior to the Dance :blushing:

So much for that nice and neat explanation! Still, I can't think of any reason why Egg would mention his brothers having them if his sisters did too. Maybe Aegon IV excluded girls? (Maybe there were simply too many boys in Egg's time? I count fifteen known males in the three generations from Daeron II to Egg.) It seems so curious that the dragons stopped hatching right after they denied female inheritance. As you say, the feminine element is symbolically and narratively powerful. I think it's not for nothing that much is made of Dany being the Mother of Dragons.

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Yes, and from a thematic standpoint, Martins use of irony in this is especially relevant.

The male Targaryens were trying to achieve something in terms of acquisition of power that needed the feminine component that was left out of the equation, again, going back to the themes of balance.

Until the interference of Westerosi traditions, perhaps Valaryian women not only figured equally in the line of succession, but it may have also been matriarchal.

(Glad your back). :kiss:

:grouphug: in small doses lol

Your hypothesis contains the germ of an interesting historical parallel i.e. the clash of the patriarchal/patrilineal Indo-European civilizations with the bronze-age matriarchal civilizations of the Mediterranean area. Interesting enough, a 'doom' is part of this narration too, with the volcanic eruption of Thera (arguably the source of the legend of Atlantis) beginning the end of the Minoan civilization. The Father, god of the sky murder the Mother, goddess of earth. Her cult is relegated to mysteries and... magic. Sounds familiar? ;)

:bang: of course. My overheated brain placed her in the generation prior to the Dance :blushing:

So much for that nice and neat explanation! Still, I can't think of any reason why Egg would mention his brothers having them if his sisters did too. Maybe Aegon IV excluded girls? (Maybe there were simply too many boys in Egg's time? I count fifteen known males in the three generations from Daeron II to Egg.) It seems so curious that the dragons stopped hatching right after they denied female inheritance. As you say, the feminine element is symbolically and narratively powerful. I think it's not for nothing that much is made of Dany being the Mother of Dragons.

:agree: As for Elaena, we unfortunately lack all the key facts. For a start we don't know when and why she got her egg. Looking at her generation, the gender ratio is perfectly balanced (Daeron, Baelor, Aegon, Aemon + Rhaena, Daena, Elaena, Naerys). No clue there :dunno: The only thing we can safely assume is that her egg is indeed a special one and one that eventually hatched.

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Not that its on subject but I believe Atlantis was an island or continent that sank. There's a theory it happened to a continent in the Pacific known as Mu or Lemuria thousands of years prior and that Atlanteans were the surviving members of that continent.

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Not that its on subject but I believe Atlantis was an island or continent that sank. There's a theory it happened to a continent in the Pacific known as Mu or Lemuria thousands of years prior and that Atlanteans were the surviving members of that continent.

A Thera-fying idea.

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A Thera-fying idea.

I see what you did there ;)

I'm with Frozen Fire, from an historical and archeological point of view Thera seems like the best bet for Atlantis. The potential parallels to the Doom are fascinating as well.

Incidentally, Dany assuming the Quartheen manner of dress has always reminded me of Minoan fashion. Google it if you don't know what I mean ;)

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I see what you did there ;)

I'm with Frozen Fire, from an historical and archeological point of view Thera seems like the best bet for Atlantis. The potential parallels to the Doom are fascinating as well.

Incidentally, Dany assuming the Quartheen manner of dress has always reminded me of Minoan fashion. Google it if you don't know what I mean ;)

A useful point about relating Minoan dress to Quartheen. Now that we have some information about the Thera/Santorini explosion, it does look like a good candidate for being the antecedent to Plato's story. A question that is open is where the name "Atlantis" came from.

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Sorry for intruding with something that is not exactly the topic of the thread, but your post gave me a thought that I haven't been able to understand for a while: Illyrio and Varys gave 3 eggs to Dany (and now we are presuming that there is another for reappeared Aegon and for Jon, if he is Rhaegar's child), as if they knew that she would be able to hatch them, which is always connects in my mind with something Varys said to Tyrion (if I remeber it correctly) about how he was made a eunuch: somebody used him for a sacrifice and he heard a voice from the flames. My point is: what if he knew she would be able to bring dragons back, because of what he heard in the flames that day.

I also thought that it is a little bit strange that Illyrio and Varys said that Dany and her brother are to be outsiders, pawns in their hands, but why did they give her those eggs in the first place then?

By the way, I like the idea of Jon's dragon egg existing and being hidden in the crypt.

You raise some good points about Varys, and then there are more that mystify me, and these are my questions.

Varys is one of the few that we don't have a family name for- he's just Varys. But, his name seems to be in the tradition of Valaryian culture if we look at names like Aerys of course, but other names as well with the same variation.

Also, why is it that the Blackfyre line is only continued through the females? They never give birth to sons? And why was Varys so randomly picked to spill his blood for a magic ritual?

Kings blood if he himself is a Blackfyre?

A deliberate attempt to keep him from reproducing if he is a Blackfyre? And then who would target and carry out the rendering of Blackyre males to keep them from reproducing , or simply be killed?

The Faceless Men?

The FM hated the dragonlords. Maybe, purely speculating here, their original mission was to do just that- wipe out the dragon lords where they could, but they couldn't quite make it to Westeros where they were so exclusive, yet insulated.

Egg kept his head shaved to hide his Targaryen hair, I wonder if Varys does the same?

If Varys was/is Serras brother, then his relationship with Illryio makes sense if they are Blackfyres, and the connection and desire to put (f)Aegon on the throne makes even more sense, as well possessing the dragon eggs.

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A useful point about relating Minoan dress to Quartheen. Now that we have some information about the Thera/Santorini explosion, it does look like a good candidate for being the antecedent to Plato's story. A question that is open is where the name "Atlantis" came from.

Can you give me some links? Im very interested :)

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A useful point about relating Minoan dress to Quartheen. Now that we have some information about the Thera/Santorini explosion, it does look like a good candidate for being the antecedent to Plato's story. A question that is open is where the name "Atlantis" came from.

Plato had Atlantis set where the Atlantic meets the Med, I am guessing the Atlantic has something to do with it, The Strait of Gibralter.

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Can you give me some links? Im very interested :)

My lore on this is old enough to be from print sources, IIRC, an article in Science, among other things. Time permitting, I will see what I can dig up.

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Plato had Atlantis set where the Atlantic meets the Med, I am guessing the Atlantic has something to do with it, The Strait of Gibralter.

Right, and when the Europeans found similar stories amongst the Mayans, and the rest of Mesoamerica, they thought there were "Satanic" influences, because such people would not be aware of the Classics.

But, what they weren't aware of is the possible trade routes that may have existed thousands of years before the Europeans brought their history. There was that thing called the dark ages when much information was lost.

Before that was the catastrophe of the Romans burning Cleopatra's, or I should say, the great library in Alexandria where who knows what information that might have held, was lost.

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Right, and when the Europeans found similar stories amongst the Mayans, and the rest of Mesoamerica, they thought there were "Satanic" influences, because such people would not be aware of the Classics.

But, what they weren't aware of is the possible trade routes that may have existed thousands of years before the Europeans brought their history. There was that thing called the dark ages when much information was lost.

Before that was the catastrophe of the Romans burning Cleopatra's, or I should say, the great library in Alexandria where who knows what information that might have held, was lost.

Cleo's library? My history might be a little Rusty but wasn't the library around a good 200 years or more before Cleo? I think and I might be wrong that Tony from little Italy presented her with some 200,000 scrolls, and that Augy accidently set fire to it when he was trashing some boats that refused to pay the local union docking fees.

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Cleo's library? My history might be a little Rusty but wasn't the library around a good 200 years or more before Cleo? I think and I might be wrong that Tony from little Italy presented her with some 200,000 scrolls, and that Augy accidently set fire to it when he was trashing some boats that refused to pay the local union docking fees.

No, it wasn't "hers," but being the scholar herself, she was devastated by it's loss.

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For the Thera eruption, circa 1630 B.C., try this:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption

One reason why this event might be behind the Atlantis story is that it took place near Greece, Egypt, Crete, etc., during the middle bronze age. Information about it, even in a highly distorted form, could easily have been passed down to Plato's time. But enough of this thread jacking

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