Waking Dragon from Stone: The Reveal of R+L=J

[J. Stargaryen]

Why wouldn't Ned fill Catelyn in so she wouldn't be miserable every time she looked at Jon?

I answered this for you in the R+L=J thread.

AGoT, Eddard IX:

Ned was no sailor, and ordinarily would have preferred the kingsroad, but if he took ship he could stop at Dragonstone and speak with Stannis Baratheon. Pycelle had sent a raven off across the water, with a polite letter from Ned requesting Lord Stannis to return to his seat on the small council. As yet, there had been no reply, but the silence only deepened his suspicions. Lord Stannis shared the secret Jon Arryn had died for, he was certain of it. The truth he sought might very well be waiting for him on the ancient island fortress of House Targaryen.

And when you have it, what then? Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. Ned slid the dagger that Catelyn had brought him out of the sheath on his belt. The Imp’s knife. Why would the dwarf want Bran dead? To silence him, surely. Another secret, or only a different strand of the same web?

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

This makes some of Master Aemon's last words make more sense too:

"I see them[Dragons] in my dreams Sam, I see the Red Star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath".

Obviously he can't see. He dreams of Jon hatching at the wall. It's the sailors stories that makes him think about Daenerys' dragons.

[Fire Eater]

I think Jon could be comatose from anywhere to three days if we follow the Jesus influence, but I don't think that really leaves a lot of time for things to be implemented and things to escalate from bad to worse such as Bowen closing the gate, contacting the Boltons, etc.

If we follow the Gandalf or Paul Atreides influence, then Jon will be out for three weeks. Paul Atreides went into a coma after drinking the Water of Life, and he gained knowledge about his ancestry as well as past, present and future. Jon will gain knowledge about his heritage as well, and may possibly be shown things in the present as well as future.

[Lyse Stark]

I think Jon could be comatose from anywhere to three days if we follow the Jesus influence, but I don't think that really leaves a lot of time for things to be implemented and things to escalate from bad to worse such as Bowen closing the gate, contacting the Boltons, etc.

If we follow the Gandalf or Paul Atreides influence, then Jon will be out for three weeks. Paul Atreides went into a coma after drinking the Water of Life, and he gained knowledge about his ancestry as well as past, present and future. Jon will gain knowledge about his heritage as well, and may possibly be shown things in the present as well as future.

This. I think GRRM is gonna follow the Paul Atreides influence.

[mrlukeduke]

Your dragon shall awaken and spread his stony wings

What's curiously subtle here is that originally you're supposed to think it's the "dragon" within Stannis, i.e. his Targaryen-ness. But there will be a true dragon (Jon Stargy) that comes to be in the company of Stanny-B. So the secret foreshadowing here is that Jon is Stannis' dragon (at the time, Stannis is a "King", i.e. Lord Comm. Jon addresses him as your grace).

[mrlukeduke]

I think Val will be present when Jon wakes up. Special thanks to Arya kiddin' for finding this

Val stood on the platform as still as if she'd been carved from salt.

Also, a minor link to note but 'Val' is the prefix for 'Valyrian'.

Under the sea the crows are white as snow.

The light of the half-moon turned Val's honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow.

I initially took 'snow crows' to mean the white ravens that herald the change of seasons (in which case 'under the sea' I took to be Patchface's biased/drowned way of interpreting winter/cold – since ice is frozen water). But now I'm not so sure.

[Ted Chang]

This. I think GRRM is gonna follow the Paul Atreides influence.

Personally I think Jon is dead and will require Melisandre returning him to life. I think that this will happen away from the wall. She may even steal the body or have another fake cremation like Mance, but that would be a bit samey. I think the fact that Jon is dead will release him from his duty to the NW, who I expect to be overrun and annihilated anyway, making it a moot point. This will free Jon up to meet Tyrion and Dany in due course. It may even be an exit strategy fo Jon's character inasmuch as he may only have a limited amount of time to live following his resurrection (this would be my The Day The Earth Stood Still influence), should my theory hold any water.

[Lord Varys]

Whatever Jon is going to do while he is dead, it's quite likely that he'll go on some sort of spiritual journey, interacting with Bloodraven, Bran, and perhaps even the Others.

I think Melisandre will be crucial in his resurrection, but if this death experience is supposed to trigger or revel any supernatural Azor Ahai powers in Jon then it may be that he will heal or resurrect himself. Although I'd find such scenario contrived and stupid.

But I very much hope that he is not going to change the Water of Life, i.e. starting to get some crucial new Azor Ahai insights and powers. What he has to know is that he is crucial in the coming fight against the Others, and he already knows that, doesn't he?

The revelation about his heritage may not actually do that, in fact, it may even shake his identity as a Stark and as Eddard Stark's son.

And I think we readers already got the confirmation of R+L=J in ADwD. Ashara Dayne is out of the game now, Wylla never was a real option, and the Borrell story is obviously a red herring.

[Lyse Stark]

Whatever Jon is going to do while he is dead, it's quite likely that he'll go on some sort of spiritual journey, interacting with Bloodraven, Bran, and perhaps even the Others.

I think Melisandre will be crucial in his resurrection, but if this death experience is supposed to trigger or revel any supernatural Azor Ahai powers in Jon then it may be that he will heal or resurrect himself. Although I'd find such scenario contrived and stupid.

But I very much hope that he is not going to change the Water of Life, i.e. starting to get some crucial new Azor Ahai insights and powers. What he has to know is that he is crucial in the coming fight against the Others, and he already knows that, doesn't he?

The revelation about his heritage may not actually do that, in fact, it may even shake his identity as a Stark and as Eddard Stark's son.

And I think we readers already got the confirmation of R+L=J in ADwD. Ashara Dayne is out of the game now, Wylla never was a real option, and the Borrell story is obviously a red herring.

Agreed. I said that the Paul Atreides influence will be minimal; he isn't gonna be a ripoff of the Dune main protagonist.

[Fire Eater]

Whatever Jon is going to do while he is dead, it's quite likely that he'll go on some sort of spiritual journey, interacting with Bloodraven, Bran, and perhaps even the Others.

I think Melisandre will be crucial in his resurrection, but if this death experience is supposed to trigger or revel any supernatural Azor Ahai powers in Jon then it may be that he will heal or resurrect himself. Although I'd find such scenario contrived and stupid.

But I very much hope that he is not going to change the Water of Life, i.e. starting to get some crucial new Azor Ahai insights and powers. What he has to know is that he is crucial in the coming fight against the Others, and he already knows that, doesn't he?

I don't think will use the same shctick for Jon like he did Beric and Cat as that seems trite by now. The clues seem to be pointing towards BranRaven helping Jon. Jon isn't confirmed as dead as per SSM, so he is likely comatose. Jon doesn't know he is crucial in the coming fight against the Others i.e. he doesn't know he is AA. I was saying he gets some insight regarding his heritage.

The revelation about his heritage may not actually do that, in fact, it may even shake his identity as a Stark and as Eddard Stark's son.

And I think we readers already got the confirmation of R+L=J in ADwD. Ashara Dayne is out of the game now, Wylla never was a real option, and the Borrell story is obviously a red herring.

We actually have no clear confirmation in the books, or anything close to one except subtle clues. The info will shake his identity as a Stark, and possibly give him a crisis of identity. It's these internal conflicts and issues that help to make GRRM's writing great.

[Lord Varys]

Fire Eater,

when can reasonably assume that R+L=J is true on the basis of all five novels especially on the basis of ADwD. It has not yet been confirmed but any other theory seems to be implausible now. At least to me.

Jon considers himself to be crucial in the coming War for the Dawn. He even refers to the coming events as 'his war' in the chapter before his assassination. I don't think Jon is Azor Ahai nor do I think that he will develop some magical anti-Others powers. He is crucial in the coming war because he has made many allies and realizes the threat the Others pose.

I cannot see him being comatose after these multiple dagger wounds. He may be in a coma for a short time but after that he will have lost too much blood. We are in Westeros and at Castle Black. There is no physician there and he has been stabbed between the shoulder blades and in the belly. Each of these wounds could be mortal, and the one at the shoulder blades could easily have hurt the spinal cortex as well, making him a worse cripple than Bran.

I do think that Mel is going to try the fire kiss on Jon. But that may not work, or may only revive Jon's body. Jon's spirit may remain in Ghost, and for that to happen his human body can die. He could return there if the body is preserved (that's why this whole icing of the corpses has been established and re-mentioned in Jon's last chapter - Melisandre is going to preserve him there, and Borroq may realize that he is in Ghost.

Bran and Bloodraven then could try to teach him how to warg back into his main body. Perhaps the crucial thing here will also answer the question what kind of creature Coldhands is. My guess is that he is a skinchanger turned wight who successfully transferred his spirit back into his body, breaking the control the Others had over his body. Jon may do something similar with his fire wight body.

But before all that happens it's not impossible that Mel creates a glamor and fakes Jon's survival to crush Bowen Marsh's rebellion. That is, if she does not kill all of the conspirators herself. She has that murderous powder in her box, and she also has stated that her shadowbinding techniques should be really, really powerful at the Wall...

[MoIaF]

Fire Eater,

when can reasonably assume that R+L=J is true on the basis of all five novels especially on the basis of ADwD. It has not yet been confirmed but any other theory seems to be implausible now. At least to me.

Jon considers himself to be crucial in the coming War for the Dawn. He even refers to the coming events as 'his war' in the chapter before his assassination. I don't think Jon is Azor Ahai nor do I think that he will develop some magical anti-Others powers. He is crucial in the coming war because he has made many allies and realizes the threat the Others pose.

I cannot see him being comatose after these multiple dagger wounds. He may be in a coma for a short time but after that he will have lost too much blood. We are in Westeros and at Castle Black. There is no physician there and he has been stabbed between the shoulder blades and in the belly. Each of these wounds could be mortal, and the one at the shoulder blades could easily have hurt the spinal cortex as well, making him a worse cripple than Bran.

I do think that Mel is going to try the fire kiss on Jon. But that may not work, or may only revive Jon's body. Jon's spirit may remain in Ghost, and for that to happen his human body can die. He could return there if the body is preserved (that's why this whole icing of the corpses has been established and re-mentioned in Jon's last chapter - Melisandre is going to preserve him there, and Borroq may realize that he is in Ghost.

Bran and Bloodraven then could try to teach him how to warg back into his main body. Perhaps the crucial thing here will also answer the question what kind of creature Coldhands is. My guess is that he is a skinchanger turned wight who successfully transferred his spirit back into his body, breaking the control the Others had over his body. Jon may do something similar with his fire wight body.

But before all that happens it's not impossible that Mel creates a glamor and fakes Jon's survival to crush Bowen Marsh's rebellion. That is, if she does not kill all of the conspirators herself. She has that murderous powder in her box, and she also has stated that her shadowbinding techniques should be really, really powerful at the Wall...

Very interesting theory, I like it! :thumbsup:

I can't imagine Jon will survive the ordeal without some serious consequences. He most certainly won’t be the person he was before, mentally or physically.

On a more humorous note if Jon is going to be "cold" it makes me think of that dream Dany had where she had sex and the man's "had blue lips and his manhood was ice cold". Need to continue that Targaryen line somehow.

[Fire Eater]

I cannot see him being comatose after these multiple dagger wounds. He may be in a coma for a short time but after that he will have lost too much blood. We are in Westeros and at Castle Black. There is no physician there and he has been stabbed between the shoulder blades and in the belly. Each of these wounds could be mortal, and the one at the shoulder blades could easily have hurt the spinal cortex as well, making him a worse cripple than Bran.

In the real world, Sir Adrian Scrope suffered a number of fatal wounds at the Battle of Edgehill, but a hard frost prevented him from bleeding out. The cold at the Wall will prevent Jon's lethal wounds from bleeding out, especially if he is placed in the ice cells. Stab someone in the right spot in the shoulder blades can result in a coma.

Jon considers himself to be crucial in the coming War for the Dawn. He even refers to the coming events as 'his war' in the chapter before his assassination. I don't think Jon is Azor Ahai nor do I think that he will develop some magical anti-Others powers. He is crucial in the coming war because he has made many allies and realizes the threat the Others pose.

I never stated anywhere that Jon would develop "magical anti-Other powers", but return with the knowledge of his heritage, what visions he sees and a stronger grasp of his warging abilities. I think Jon is AA given: I [Mel] pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai and R'hllor only shows me Snow.

But before all that happens it's not impossible that Mel creates a glamor and fakes Jon's survival to crush Bowen Marsh's rebellion. That is, if she does not kill all of the conspirators herself. She has that murderous powder in her box, and she also has stated that her shadowbinding techniques should be really, really powerful at the Wall...

To make shadowbabies she needs a man, so who would she sleep with? It isn't indicated that Mel knows. I don't think Mel will try the kiss of fire, as Thoros did it, and he didn't intend to resurrect Beric. It would be IMO, tired and trite to use the kiss of fire again.

[Mithras]

The mud was such a dark brown it appeared almost black, but there were swathes of golden sand as well, upthrust rocks both grey and red, and tangles of black and green seaweed. Storks stalked through the tidal pools and left their footprints all around them, and crabs scuttled across the surface of shallow waters.

The upthrust rock both grey and red is the stone dragon (Jon Snow) who is both Stark (grey) and Targaryen (red).

We have two people resurected by the kiss of life. I don't think Jon will go that way, nor I think he will be resurrected.

I think his condition is very similar to Bran and he will be healed the same. I suspect the execution of Lady was used by BR as a blood sacrifice to push Bran's spirit back to his body and awaken him. I think Jon is currently stuck with Ghost, he cannot return to his body by himself. After the revelation, BR will kick him to his body back. I wonder what will be the blood sacrifice. Perhaps it will be Ghost, or it might be Asha/Theon or it might be Gerrick Kingsblood being roasted by Mel. Maybe all of them will happen and Jon will be healed by a sacrifice of ice and fire together as Fire Eater suggested.

[Mithras]

Stones represent Starks in hiding as Fire Eater suggested.

Sansa is hiding under Alayne Stone persona. She surrounded by the mountains.

Arya is hiding in Braavos, all stone, a grey city in a green sea.

Bran is hiding in a stone cave of the CotF.

Rickon is hiding in Skagos, which means stone in the Old Tongue.

This pattern makes Jon the Stone Dragon.

“I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains,”

“How would I break the chains, Jojen?” Bran asked.

“Open your eye.”

Stone is also used as a chain; a burden needs to be dumped. I think the stone wings of Jon are his chains and he cannot fly with them. To get rid of the stone covering his wings, Jon must open his third eye as Bran did.

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

This dream of Dany can be interpreted as a framework of dragon waking from stone. She was in a stone hallway. She got heated and her feet started to melt the stone as she ran faster and faster. Then, she felt a great knife of pain at her back and her wings spread out. She smelled her burning blood. With her wings, she flew.

This is very similar to the stabbing of Jon on the shoulder blade. He felt a great pain. His wounds were smoking. Jon will be awakened and flying when he wakes up. No more stone wings.

[J. Stargaryen]

Stones represent Starks in hiding as Fire Eater suggested.

Sansa is hiding under Alayne Stone persona. She surrounded by the mountains.

Arya is hiding in Braavos, all stone, a grey city in a green sea.

Bran is hiding in a stone cave of the CotF.

Rickon is hiding in Skagos, which means stone in the Old Tongue.

This pattern makes Jon the Stone Dragon.

<snip>

The connection between Starks and stone is made early on with the crypts beneath Winterfell (AGoT, Eddard I). Dead Stark lords are commemorated by having their likeness carved from stone.

[Light a wight tonight]

Also, a minor link to note but 'Val' is the prefix for 'Valyrian'.

It's likewise a prefix for "valkyrie".

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Stones represent Starks in hiding as Fire Eater suggested.

Sansa is hiding under Alayne Stone persona. She surrounded by the mountains.

Arya is hiding in Braavos, all stone, a grey city in a green sea.

Bran is hiding in a stone cave of the CotF.

Rickon is hiding in Skagos, which means stone in the Old Tongue.

This pattern makes Jon the Stone Dragon.

“I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains,”

“How would I break the chains, Jojen?” Bran asked.

“Open your eye.”

Stone is also used as a chain; a burden needs to be dumped. I think the stone wings of Jon are his chains and he cannot fly with them. To get rid of the stone covering his wings, Jon must open his third eye as Bran did.

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

This dream of Dany can be interpreted as a framework of dragon waking from stone. She was in a stone hallway. She got heated and her feet started to melt the stone as she ran faster and faster. Then, she felt a great knife of pain at her back and her wings spread out. She smelled her burning blood. With her wings, she flew.

This is very similar to the stabbing of Jon on the shoulder blade. He felt a great pain. His wounds were smoking. Jon will be awakened and flying when he wakes up. No more stone wings.

"Stone is also used as a chain; a burden needs to be dumped. I think the stone wings of Jon are his chains and he cannot fly with them. To get rid of the stone covering his wings, Jon must open his third eye as Bran did. "

I have been wondering about this, after Jon Wakes up (or is revived) if he has gained the info that he is indeed R+L=J and that he is the TPtwP (open 3rd eye) , does he awaken as Jon (Visery III) Targaryen with the abilities and knowledge that is needed as TPtwP? Does he become aware Ala Neo form the Matrix (not saying he will be the Kung Fu super powered savior)?

Also on a side note of Jon as R+L=J and the AAR/ TPtwP, it has dawned on me a connection between the Lightbringer story and Jon.

Azhor Ahai plunged his sword (his 3rd attempt) into Nissa Nissa (killing her in the process) and it created Lightbringer.

Rhaegar married Lyanna and Impregnating her (his 3rd child), killing Lyanna in the process and creating Jon

[Mithras]

"Stone is also used as a chain; a burden needs to be dumped. I think the stone wings of Jon are his chains and he cannot fly with them. To get rid of the stone covering his wings, Jon must open his third eye as Bran did. "

I have been wondering about this, after Jon Wakes up (or is revived) if he has gained the info that he is indeed R+L=J and that he is the TPtwP (open 3rd eye) , does he awaken as Jon (Visery III) Targaryen with the abilities and knowledge that is needed as TPtwP? Does he become aware Ala Neo form the Matrix (not saying he will be the Kung Fu super powered savior)?

I think Jon will be awaken with the knowledge of R+L=J. Remember his dream in the crypts? He was never able to complete it because he always woke up in terror. This time though, he will not be able to wake up because of his comatose state and keep dreaming until the end, something Fire Eater suggested. So, he will go down the crypt and probably see Lyanna without recognizing her (like Joanna in Jaime’s dream). He will also to speak with Ned’s ghost as Ned promised to tell him about his mother next time they speak.

About Jon’s feelings after this revelation:

“Drop sail. We proceed on oars alone. Command Grief and Iron Vengeance to stand between Silence and the sea. The rest of the fleet to seal the bay. None is to leave save at my command, neither man nor crow.”

Euron’s ship is Silence and Victarion surrounded that ship with two of his ships (Grief and Iron Vengeance) to make sure that it cannot leave without his command. No man or crow can leave on Silence without overcoming Grief and Iron Vengeance.

I think this crow is Jon Snow and the man is Jon Targaryen. After the assassination, he will warg into Ghost who is always described as silent, very similar to the ship Silence. So, Jon will find himself in Silence and the only way out is guarded by Grief and Iron Vengeance. Both of these feelings (grief and vengeance) are related to his true parentage as well as the betrayal by his brothers. He will have to overcome these feelings and accept his destiny.

Also on a side note of Jon as R+L=J and the AAR/ TPtwP, it has dawned on me a connection between the Lightbringer story and Jon.

Azhor Ahai plunged his sword (his 3rd attempt) into Nissa Nissa (killing her in the process) and it created Lightbringer.

Rhaegar married Lyanna and Impregnating her (his 3rd child), killing Lyanna in the process and creating Jon

I am sold to the theory that Jon+Drogon=Lightbringer. I also agree that Jon is tPtwP. I don’t think Rhaegar is the AAR though. For me, AAR will be the one who clasps the Lightbringer (Jon). I interpret it as the AAR (or the AARs as I think there may be multiple AARs) will help Jon and make him fully functional in the Battle for the Dawn. My candidates are Davos and Sam.

[BearQueen87]

I am sold to the theory that Jon+Drogon=Lightbringer. I also agree that Jon is tPtwP. I don’t think Rhaegar is the AAR though. For me, AAR will be the one who clasps the Lightbringer (Jon). I interpret it as the AAR (or the AARs as I think there may be multiple AARs) will help Jon and make him fully functional in the Battle for the Dawn. My candidates are Davos and Sam.

I agree with some of this. I'm sold on the Lightbringer theory after I read it several times. I agree that there might be multiple AARs and that their task is to get Jon ready and Sam is on my list as well. I think Sam will learn very soon that R+L = J and his task after that is to get Jon prepared to fight for the Dawn. I'd love to hear more about why you think Davos is a potential AAR.

The other my list is still Rhaegar, but not Rhaegar the person but rather a symbolic object of Rhaegar that rests with Lyanna in her crypt below Winterfell. Harp, marriage cloak, perhaps. It's one thing to have your best friend say that you're the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, it's another to find out the evidence yourself. I think that in order for Jon to truly fight for th Dawn he must have his identity in tact--he can't do it so long as he thinks of himself as Jon Snow, bastard of Eddard Stark. That's how I interpret "get Jon fully functional" if I might steal your words. Being fully functional means having his identity solidified in him as a Targ-Stark, LC of the Night Watch, Lightbringer, and the TPTWP.

Another potential is Howland Reed, the only person we know of who is alive and knows the story of the Tower of Joy.