Was Ned's act of mercy towards Cersei smarter than we give it credit for?

[Luthien Targaryen]

A couple of points:

• I think that some of the image as Ned as a thicky are thanks to Littlefinger, he's constantly cracking jokes about how slow and dense Ned is. On the other hand , Littlefinger has a personal grudge against the guy, and would benefit from the ego boost that comes with comparing how quick and clever he is to stupid Lord Stark.
  
• Ned can't be that daft, he's governed the north for 15 years, in spite of having to step into the role unexpectedly when his father and elder brother died. The north is a huge area, and he's kept the peace between a group of huge and divergent personalities. Anybody who can keep the likes of Roose Bolton, Wyman Manderly, Rickard Karstark and the Greatjon from killing each other is far from stupid.
  
• And at the same time as that, he's retained his integrity and reputation through two periods of armed conflict and raised half a dozen kids, two of which appeared to have grown to become responsible and hard working young men, one elegant and graceful young lady, and a couple of resourceful and determined pre-teens (still working on Rickon, but he is/was only three...seemed like a bright three year old though...)
  
• As for his decision to raise Jon himself, i'd assumed that his promise to Lyanna was about raising Jon as his own son, as well as keeping him safe.
  

[Jasta11]

I don't blame Ned, the odds of Cersei's plan working without a hitch had to be a million to one.

Indeed. At this point, all he had to do was talk with Robert for 5 minutes and she was dead. As far as he knew, he was holding most of the cards. Ned was not a politically savvy man by any stretch of the imagination and he made several mistakes (just like, oh, every single character in this story), but that boar did more to undermine his cause than any of his own acts, by far. If Robert comes back from the hunt, all of Ned's errors ring hollow and all of the Lannister's machinations are useless.

That being said, we know from his POV that his motivation is keeping Robert from killing Cercei's children. He doesn't make any political calculations, risks vs rewards, nothing. He did it solely to avoid a Aegon + Rhaenys 2.0. Which is honorable and all, but he was too hasty. he should have waited for Robert to be back and for his daughters to be safe out of King's Landing. No, going to tell Cercei right now was not a smart move.

On the other other hand, I'm always annoyed when people say Ned died because he was stupid. No, he was not. He was not used to KL and lacked political acumen, and so made several mistakes (telling Cercei, trusting Littlefinger, not placating Loras, among others) but those mistakes weren't much graver than any other character's that are still alive, and pale in comparison to the profound stupidity of some (hello Cercei).

[Ludd]

Ned was not stupid- he was a wise ruler of the North and a great strategic battle leader. Hpwever he was (BY CHOICE) a novice at the political games of Kings Landing.

He made several mistakes

1. Trusting LF

2. Trusting Sansa

3. Not realising that Cersai was ALREADY in the throes of killling Robert

Now Ned SHOULD have sent Arya and Sansa away before he spoke to Cersai. He should probably (if he had been wiser) have organaised a kiddies picnic/holiday somewhere and got all the children our of KL before speaking to Cersai.

[Ludd]

Actually I think that Catelyn kept her secrets too.

She did not reveal to Ned the EXTENT of LFs passion for her. Perhpas she herself did not know, however both she and Ned should have known that he was a dangerous enemy.

[Mladen]

Ned was not stupid- he was a wise ruler of the North and a great strategic battle leader. Hpwever he was (BY CHOICE) a novice at the political games of Kings Landing.

He made several mistakes

1. Trusting LF

2. Trusting Sansa

3. Not realising that Cersai was ALREADY in the throes of killling Robert

Now Ned SHOULD have sent Arya and Sansa away before he spoke to Cersai. He should probably (if he had been wiser) have organaised a kiddies picnic/holiday somewhere and got all the children our of KL before speaking to Cersai.

Trusting Sansa? This sounds like she betrayed him, which wasn't the case. Also, let we not go there, it's a dangerous territory and I wouldn't like this thread to become another battlefield.

Actually I think that Catelyn kept her secrets too.

She did not reveal to Ned the EXTENT of LFs passion for her. Perhpas she herself did not know, however both she and Ned should have known that he was a dangerous enemy.

Why should we stop with Sansa? If you attack one, the other is not far from it. The argument, needless to say, is flawed and wrong.

[Mad Monkey]

Ned didn't take Renly's help because doing so would have crowned Renly King and Ned was very clear that next in line was Stannis. He wasn't about to throw in against Stannis' rightful claim.

Renly didn't say that in the book though, only in the show. In the books, Renly never talks about making himself king until the second book, after Ned was already dead. Renly doesn't suggest or imply that he has a problem with Joffrey being King while Ned serves as Lord Protector; it may be that he had some secret plan to usurp the Throne but Ned had no way of knowing this since all of the information supporting that came from scenes that took place after he was dead. In fact, the only person who talks about jumping Stannis in the line of succession is Littlefinger, the man that Ned went to for help:

"Now look at the other side of the coin. Joffrey is but twelve, and Robert gave you the regency, my lord. You are the Hand of the King and Protector of the Realm. The power is yours, Lord Stark. All you need do is reach out and take it. Make your peace with the Lannisters. Release the Imp. Wed Joffrey to your Sansa. Wed your younger girl to Prince Tommen, and your heir to Myrcella. It will be four years before Joffrey comes of age. By then he will look to you as a second father, and if not, well . . . four years is a good long while, my lord. Long enough to dispose of Lord Stannis. Then, should Joffrey prove troublesome, we can reveal his little secret and put Lord Renly on the throne."

"We?" Ned repeated.

Contrast this with the text of Renly's proposal:

Ned gestured. Tomard and Cayn bowed their heads and backed away respectfully. Lord Renly glanced warily at Ser Boros on the far end of the span, at Ser Preston in the doorway behind them. "That letter." He leaned close. "Was it the regency? Has my brother named you Protector?" He did not wait for a reply. "My lord, I have thirty men in my personal guard, and other friends beside, knights and lords. Give me an hour, and I can put a hundred swords in your hand."

"And what should I do with a hundred swords, my lord?"

"Strike! Now, while the castle sleeps." Renly looked back at Ser Boros again and dropped his voice to an urgent whisper. "We must get Joffrey away from his mother and take him in hand. Protector or no, the man who holds the king holds the kingdom. We should seize Myrcella and Tommen as well. Once we have her children, Cersei will not dare oppose us. The council will confirm you as Lord Protector and make Joffrey your ward."

Renly here speaks only of executing the letter of Robert's will. He doesn't talk about making himself king, imply that Joffrey will be overthrown, or suggest that Cersei will be murdered. It seems like an eminently reasonable plan to me that conforms to what Eddard does later on in the book (attacking the Lannisters in the throne room) as well as what he tried to do with warning Cersei.

[Ludd]

As a matter of fact I think Ned made his fatal mistake when he executed Lady. He in effect became a kin slayer and I think his fate was sealed. The old gods do nopt tolerate kinslaying, even if accidental or unknowing.

Sorry I think it is clear that Ned's mistakes (suchas they were) involved trusting people.

He trusted Cersai to be rational

He trusted LF, not knowing he was a dangerous enemy - Not sure if he and Cat SHOULD have known or not. probably Not, but it was still an error.

Sorry Sansa fans, but she DID reveal their escape plans to Cersai, thereby preventing Ned getting she and Arya to safety. Sansa CHOSE Cersai and Joffrey over her family. Understandable - sure she was an 11 year old girly, girl. But it is stupid to deny the fact that she betrayed Ned. Also one MUST assume that Ned had the same talk to Sansa as he did to Arya, about sticking together and the danger they were in. Arya listened. Sansa did not.

Surely the whole POINT of the books is to show how actions, however imnnocent can be misguided and lead to hideous consequences.

Sansa, fresh in her childish Joff infatuation, ignored Ned and blabbed to Cersai. Ned SHOULD have realised the danger but did not seem to understand Sansa well.

Mind you Arya with her passionate loyalty to the North, opened the door to Roose Bolton with terrible consequences.

[Chaircat Meow]

How is Ned a kinslayer, of all things, for killing Lady? The wolf wasn't his relative.

[Sullen]

Ned didn't take Renly's help because doing so would have crowned Renly King and Ned was very clear that next in line was Stannis. He wasn't about to throw in against Stannis' rightful claim.

That's in the show.

Book Renly wants to keep Joffrey on the Throne and "rule" through him.

[Jasta11]

How is Ned a kinslayer, of all things, for killing Lady? The wolf wasn't his relative.

Yeah, I don't understand that one either. What next, Catelyn is a child murderer for not stopping Robb's assassination?

[juanml82]

He trusted Cersai to be rational

He trusted LF, not knowing he was a dangerous enemy - Not sure if he and Cat SHOULD have known or not. probably Not, but it was still an error.

Well, Cersei was rational regarding this particular issue

[Mladen]

As a matter of fact I think Ned made his fatal mistake when he executed Lady. He in effect became a kin slayer and I think his fate was sealed. The old gods do nopt tolerate kinslaying, even if accidental or unknowing.

Sorry I think it is clear that Ned's mistakes (suchas they were) involved trusting people.

He trusted Cersai to be rational

He trusted LF, not knowing he was a dangerous enemy - Not sure if he and Cat SHOULD have known or not. probably Not, but it was still an error.

Sorry Sansa fans, but she DID reveal their escape plans to Cersai, thereby preventing Ned getting she and Arya to safety. Sansa CHOSE Cersai and Joffrey over her family. Understandable - sure she was an 11 year old girly, girl. But it is stupid to deny the fact that she betrayed Ned. Also one MUST assume that Ned had the same talk to Sansa as he did to Arya, about sticking together and the danger they were in. Arya listened. Sansa did not.

Surely the whole POINT of the books is to show how actions, however imnnocent can be misguided and lead to hideous consequences.

Sansa, fresh in her childish Joff infatuation, ignored Ned and blabbed to Cersai. Ned SHOULD have realised the danger but did not seem to understand Sansa well.

Mind you Arya with her passionate loyalty to the North, opened the door to Roose Bolton with terrible consequences.

First, Ned is not a kinslayer and in no way we can see what happened to him as some retribution for his crimes...

As for Sansa, she did went to Cersei and told her that Ned plans to send her and Arya home, she also told her some of the details, but in chain of events that led to Ned's arrest that was nowhere near as important as other mistakes Ned made and betrayals that came. It is stupid to name such act as betrayal. It is stupid to say that she willingly betrayed Ned. Sansa wasn't aware of the consequences or the entire Game that is being played. Her father was, and he behaved like his daughters are totally expendable. Should we discuss the fact that he was ready to sacrifice his daughter's happiness and well-being to find out who killed Jon Arryn? Also, we don't know anything about Ned talking to Sansa, we have both their POVs and nowhere is stated that he warned her about anything. So, we have to conclude that conversation never happened...

And good point about Arya and weasel soup. Should we say that she is responsible for Robb's death?

ETA: As OP, I would like to inform all of you that off-topic posts will be reported. Please, if you don't have anything to contribute, and if you want to derail the discussion with uncivilized hate posts, do that somewhere else. Thank you very much...

[Sullen]

First, Ned is not a kinslayer and in no way we can see what happened to him as some retribution for his crimes...

As for Sansa, she did went to Cersei and told her that Ned plans to send her and Arya home, she also told her some of the details, but in chain of events that led to Ned's arrest that was nowhere near as important as other mistakes Ned made and betrayals that came. It is stupid to name such act as betrayal. It is stupid to say that she willingly betrayed Ned. Sansa wasn't aware of the consequences or the entire Game that is being played. Her father was, and he behaved like his daughters are totally expendable. Should we discuss the fact that he was ready to sacrifice his daughter's happiness and well-being to find out who killed Jon Arryn? Also, we don't know anything about Ned talking to Sansa, we have both their POVs and nowhere is stated that he warned her about anything. So, we have to conclude that conversation never happened...

I find the accusations of betrayal directed towards Sansa absolutely ridiculous, I don't get how they keep showing up around here...

[Mladen]

I find the accusations of betrayal directed towards Sansa absolutely ridiculous, I don't get how they keep showing up around here...

Well, we are all entitled to opinion. But, back on track... Enough about Sansa and Cat/Jon relationship

[Ludd]

Sorry but I think by the ancient rules of the Old Gods (??? ancient pact??) Ned by killing a direwolf bonded with a Stark was in effect a kinslayer. The souls of the Starks and the wolves were intertwined.

Sure Ned did not realise the connection (he DID after Cat told him how Summer saved Bran) but it was too late. Ned somehow seemed to treat the Stark legends as irrelevant myths. It was Jon (and Bran) who instinctively realised the importance of the direwolves. Ned and later Catelyn came to this realisation after the beheading of Lady.

By sad and tragic misunderstanding, Ned became a kinslayer. I think the Old Gods punished him.

[Mladen]

By sad and tragic misunderstanding, Ned became a kinslayer. I think the Old Gods punished him.

You mean Bloodraven? Please, do explain me, how he managed to punish Ned? By warging Joffrey?

[Ludd]

Listen while I do not want to start a "Dump on Sansa" thread, the reality is that as an 11 year old girl she was a goody two shoes, sneak and tattle tale. Recall the "Don't tell Sansa" unison between Arya and Jon - CLEARLY implying that Sansa had a track record of telling tales to Mumma or Septa Mordane.

Sansa was at 11, a spoiled, arrogant, empty headed, child who had had life very easy. A sweet Summer Child. Septa Mordane had used her as a stick to beat and humiliate Arya and had done little to stop the bullying that Sansa and her friends had used on Arya. Sure they were children and little girls of that age are notoriously mean to one another, so no need to use this as a whip to beat up on Sansa, but it is also stupid to deny that it did not happen. Unlike ANY of the other children, she was hostile to Jon Snow, absorbing her mother's attitudes. Robb and Arya clearly had no such attitude and we can assume that neither Bran or Rickon would have had them, even as they aged.

[Ludd]

Zunni

I do not think we KNOW how the old gods punish - I do not think it is Blood Raven in a cave wielding justice. I think it is more complex and subtle than that.

The son of Bael the Bard killed his father unknowingly and was flayed for his action. Pretty horrible fate if you ask me.

[Mladen]

Listen while I do not want to start a "Dump on Sansa" thread, the reality is that as an 11 year old girl she was a goody two shoes, sneak and tattle tale. Recall the "Don't tell Sansa" unison between Arya and Jon - CLEARLY implying that Sansa had a track record of telling tales to Mumma or Septa Mordane.

Sansa was at 11, a spoiled, arrogant, empty headed, child who had had life very easy. A sweet Summer Child. Septa Mordane had used her as a stick to beat and humiliate Arya and had done little to stop the bullying that Sansa and her friends had used on Arya. Sure they were children and little girls of that age are notoriously mean to one another, so no need to use this as a whip to beat up on Sansa, but it is also stupid to deny that it did not happen. Unlike ANY of the other children, she was hostile to Jon Snow, absorbing her mother's attitudes. Robb and Arya clearly had no such attitude and we can assume that neither Bran or Rickon would have had them, even as they aged.

Sansa is not spoiled, and nothing in the books, I mean ASOIAF, doesn't say about her being spoiled

Sansa also isn't empty-headed given the fact that we were told, in those books, again ASOIAF, that she was extremely well-read and educated

When it comes to Sansa humiliating Arya, in GoT, again great book, Arya specifically said Sansa never mocked her.

When it comes to Jon, Sansa show great deal of affection and love towards Jon, something I imagine wouldn't be easily missed in ASOIAF. Also, we know that Bran, in hios first POV thought of Jon as half-brother, that Robb was unkind in several occasions. The only one that were completely kind to Jon was actually Arya...

I understand people start making these assumptions, but before bringing flawed arguments to the table, how about we check their accuracy?

Zunni

I do not think we KNOW how the old gods punish - I do not think it is Blood Raven in a cave wielding justice. I think it is more complex and subtle than that.

The son of Bael the Bard killed his father unknowingly and was flayed for his action. Pretty horrible fate if you ask me.

No, you argued that Old Gods punished Ned. I am asking how. Please, explain us in more complex and subtle way, trust me, we are all quite capable of understanding it. Also, the son of Bael the Bard wasn't flayed for his action, where in Gods' name you got that?

[Ludd]

Zunni

I think the whole statues and direwolves thing, like the swords and the idea that the MUST be a stark at Winterfell, is old, old magic. Quite HOW it woorks is no known but the fact that it exists seems to be a given in the series.

Therefore Ned, by cutting of the head of a direowolf, probably unwittingly broke the pact with the Old Gods. Remember poor Ned had been raised in the South and returned home AFTER his father and presumably mother were gone. There was NO ONE to tell him in detail of the Stark obligations and legends.

Old Nan knew a lt but the things she DID NOT know or feared related to warging etc, including direwolves.