Jaime Lannister: condemned for the wrong reason

[crt]

These threads seem to be occurring on regular basis, so much that maybe another PSA is needed.

To be short, what Jaime did was utterly wrong. Killing completely innocent boy to cover up love affair you shouldn't have been committing in the first place cannot be right in any conceivable universe. Great part of Jaime's redemption arc is him realizing how big jerkass he was and trying to change his ways.

And where was this? I think I must have read a different version of the books.

[ductastic]

Great part of Jaime's redemption arc is him realizing how big jerkass he was and trying to change his ways.

I consider Jaime one of my favorite characters but I'd never say he has a redemption arc. In AFFC he threatens Edmure to use a trebuchet to throw his unborn babe to Riverrun. This is the same jerkass we see in all the other chapters before, his arc is more about self-identity and such, imho.

[Dagon]

I consider Jaime one of my favorite characters but I'd never say he has a redemption arc. In AFFC he threatens Edmure to use a trebuchet to throw his unborn babe to Riverrun. This is the same jerkass we see in all the other chapters before, his arc is more about self-identity and such, imho.

Damn, that's funny. Though I'm pretty sure he was bluffing/strong-arming him. He's really good at that.

[DavosSeaworthy]

Jamie is a chump with a stump. He could burn the Twins to the ground and he'd still be an asshat.

[Cloud]

I'm a big Jaime fan and I don't see a way him pushing Bran can be justified. I don't have a problem with that as that moment was supposed to make us hate him.

However I do find it unfair to blame him for not being "able" to protect Rhaegar's children. Recall the following moment in ASOS where Jaime is sleeping on the weirwood tree:

"He was your king", said Darry.

"You swore to keep him safe", said Whent.

"And the Children as well", said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."
"I never thought he'd hurt them." Jaime's sword was burning less brightly now. "I was with the king . . . "
"Killing the king," said Ser Arthur.

^ I think that pretty much shows that Jaime did not ever expect Tywin to brutally slaughter them in the manner than he did (and I don't understand why people ignore this crucial quote). Furthermore it does imply that he has thought about this (Tywin's actions) before and disapproved of them.

[Magjee]

When he killed Aerys he also saved himself.

His redemtion arc is interesting, wonder what he does for Brienne

[corbon]

First, in 5 thread pages, I haven't seen one person get the underlying facts right.
Jaime did not just push Bran out the window.
Bran slipped and fell entirely on his own. Jaime saved him. That was his instinctive reaction.
Then he realised what it meant, death for him and his lover. And then he pushed him out the window, removed his interference in the natural order. Bran died because he slipped and fell, not because Jaime pushed him out a window.

Jaime made bad disgusting call after bad disgusting call culminating in pushing a child out of a window. Remember why he had to do this. It was too hide the fact that HE WAS NAILING HIS SISTER.

Actually, I'd argue Jaime made very few calls his entire life. He's basically been drifting through his own life, dominated by others, primarily Tywin, and Cersei, the whole time, and its that very lack of taking on his own agency that has defined him and been his greatest flaw. He's never cared much about anything, maybe because nothing really cared about him. The one thing he thought was real was his sister's love (but it wasn't, she loved only herself, just he was her reflection). And maybe the relationship he had with Tyrion.
And the one time he really took agency? He killed the king, betrayed his vows. Not, as best we can tell, to save himself (or at least, only to save himself), but to save all of Kings Landing.

The one time he made a hard choice, did the right thing, and he was forever was scorned for it.

Indifference is his armour, and he wears it very well.

IMO Jaime commited a black deed for a black reason. He was essentially amoral and indifferent to it and everyone except Cersei and Tyrion. But I think he's black because he chose to be tarred black when he did not justify his murder of Aerys to Ned or anyone else. He was selfish, solipsistic, and a law unto himself. He continued to live that way when he allowed Gregor Clegane to butcher the royal heirs, chased after Arya with mayhem in mind, murdered Jory, etc. Jaime was a hollow man with a hole where his heart should be.

That is a key reason his redemption arc is so very fascinating. By the way, while most people date the beginning of his turnaround to the loss of his hand, I submit that it began earlier when he experienced a small glimmer of respect for Brienne. That is when the black finally started modulating into grey.

Ned judged him before a word was said. Jaime saw that, and on went the armour. Yes, indifference. He didn't choose to be tarred that way - he saw it in Ned's bearing before there was any opportunity otherwise, but he did choose to armour himself in indifference, to be the Kingslayer just as Tyrion is the Imp, and urges Jon to be the Bastard.

And yes, that Indifference creates Selfishness. And lets face it, that is the code he was raised in. The only thing that matters is Lannisters. In this, he is his father's son, just not quite as extreme.

The part about 'allowing' the royal heirs to be butchered is ignorant and irrational hate mongering, and many people here are guilt of it. There is no evidence he could have stopped it even if he knew (can't be in two places at once, we don't know the exact timing except that Lannisters would have gone straight to the Throne room as fast or faster than anywhere else, and we don't now how long he waited there, nor how long it would take to get from one place to another) and evidence that he didn't know it was happening.

Oh please. Re-read my post. The crime isn't loving his sister, or even fucking her. It's treason.

Because as much as you want to spin it as some great romance, what Cersei and Jaime were doing was grossly selfish, and endangered their children, and the lives of countless others in the war they'd inevitably cause. And neither of them gave a shit. I reiterate, Jaime's plan was to kill anyone who found out, then and there, consequences be damned. This isn't the Jets and the Sharks or the Montagues and the Caputels. Those loves promised to end strife.

I mean, Jaime joked about causing a war with Robert for Cersei, and so unless you can explain to me why Cersei and Jaime's relationship should be prioritised above countless lives of innocents smallfolk and noble alike, this is just more slock for the Jaime pity party.

So I'll say this; Jaime and Cersei can be together, so long as neither of them had actively sought dynastic power, or tried to cover up their affair more competantly than not at all. But if they seek power, if they're cavalier about hiding their Kingdom shattering affair, and they still refuse to forego their affair, they deserve all the scorn I'm heaping on them and more.

Very much this.

He never had much agency, due to his own weaknesses of character and the strength of those around him.

When he used it, he did the right thing in a difficult situation and was despised for it. Choosing 'others' hasn't worked for him. Choosing 'self' has.

He armoured himself in indifference, and followed the code of his father.

Those things lead him to continue his affair with Cersei, which is probably as selfish an act as it is possible to conceive.

His 'redemption arc' to me, is all about starting to see the world as a more populated place than just his own family. To recognise that other people are real and truly interact with them, not just adjuncts to his own desires. While the stirrings first start with respect for Brienne, I still think losing the hand was the key. That cost him his ability to armour himself in indifference. No longer was he the invincible golden god who didn't need to think about anyone else. Once he snapped out of the funk, for the first time he started thinking about others as well as himself, because he wasn't a drifting god any more, but a fallible mortal just like all the others.

Sure, the old wit and brashness are still there, still available to use as a mask. But I think the old Jaime would have carried out the threats to Edmure's baby without a thought. The current Jaime wasn't sure if he'd do it or not.

[Cloud]

First, in 5 thread pages, I haven't seen one person get the underlying facts right.

Jaime did not just push Bran out the window.

Bran slipped and fell entirely on his own. Jaime saved him. That was his instinctive reaction.

Then he realised what it meant, death for him and his lover. And then he pushed him out the window, removed his interference in the natural order. Bran died because he slipped and fell, not because Jaime pushed him out a window.

Can't believe I forgot this detail. It kind of shows that he did actually think about the consequences and he did weigh up the options, before resorting to the easiest and (probably) most effective.

Good post by the way.

[IRON BANK]

Jaime condmned for all reasons and rightfully so.

Jaime: pathetic is the first word that comes to mind, openly aids in having his brothers wife raped, no back bone terrible, engages in incest w/ his sister, kills king sworn to protect (I dont care if he threatens to burn KL you wait until you catch him in the act and then move forward), after this Jaime continues incest with sister doesn't care and even when she becomes queen even though he is a kings guard member and forbidden to have sex breaks that vow and continues his depraved perversion any way. protects his kids see above if he wanted to protect his children he wouldn't have brought them in the world under such a negligent and irresponsible circumstance, hows he gonna be a father from the sidelines i mean c'mon. And don't even try that he cares about children go ask Bran how far Jaimes love goes for them. Swears an oath to Catelyn and in true Lannister form pays somebody else to complete it, which aint half bad because Brienne is sun of a knight where Jaime isn't even a spark. What enrages me is when Jaime is in the riverlands thinking to himself this is what it feels like to deal out real justice. I mean what a joke this guy is. Oh HERE WE GO REDEMPTION ARCH TIME: How many times do we got to break this down. Jaime: Some character arches start on a heroes plaine where the character on said arch starts out with know skill. Jaime we meet on a plaine at the START OF AN ARCH WAY BENEATH THAT SO TO REACH EVEN A STARTING POINT HE'S GOT A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNGGGG WAY TO GO.

[Cloud]

Jaime condmned for all reasons and rightfully so.

Jaime: pathetic is the first word that comes to mind, openly aids in having his brothers wife raped, no back bone terrible, engages in incest w/ his sister, kills king sworn to protect (I dont care if he threatens to burn KL you wait until you catch him in the act and then move forward), after this Jaime continues incest with sister doesn't care and even when she becomes queen even though he is a kings guard member and forbidden to have sex breaks that vow and continues his depraved perversion any way. protects his kids see above if he wanted to protect his children he wouldn't have brought them in the world under such a negligent and irresponsible circumstance, hows he gonna be a father from the sidelines i mean c'mon. And don't even try that he cares about children go ask Bran how far Jaimes love goes for them. Swears an oath to Catelyn and in true Lannister form pays somebody else to complete it, which aint half bad because Brienne is sun of a knight where Jaime isn't even a spark. What enrages me is when Jaime is in the riverlands thinking to himself this is what it feels like to deal out real justice. I mean what a joke this guy is. Oh HERE WE GO REDEMPTION ARCH TIME: How many times do we got to break this down. Jaime: Some character arches start on a heroes plaine where the character on said arch starts out with know skill. Jaime we meet on a plaine at the START OF AN ARCH WAY BENEATH THAT SO TO REACH EVEN A STARTING POINT HE'S GOT A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNGGGG WAY TO GO.

I've seen you post this exact same post in every thread that discusses Jaime. Do you have anything new/insightful to contribute or are you just here to provoke Jaime hate?

[IRON BANK]

I've seen you post this exact same post in every thread that discusses Jaime. Do you have anything new/insightful to contribute or are you just here to provoke Jaime hate?

the are so many threads on the same subject, I just save it. you can search and see. How many times can we discuss it. If you have seen it before you will probably see it again. I dont hate Jaime, I just cant stand it when people feel he is a good guy. Jaime is not a good person. he is a selfish one. he is also a very interesting character. We live in a world where people feel that if Jaime does one or two acts of selfless action that this will vindicate him. However if you are a realist you can realize Jaime and his sidter have caused through their stupidity and depravity so much destruction redemption is unattainable. Jaime's only goal in life at this point is to make it through the mundane day to day.

[King Bobby B]

Their hate is absolutely justified as Jaime betrayed his duty simply to save his life and continued to do so as he sat around and did nothing to attempt to protect Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon from his father's men. Moreover, it was his own stupid pride that made it so no one knew that he did it to save KL thus I don't feel sympathy for them judging him.

Also, boo hoo he got a mocking nickname that truly justifies his repeat treason and attempted murder of a child...oh wait.

How could Jaime have done anything to protect Elia and her children from his father? He had no idea that Elia was being raped and murdered, most likely finding out after the fact. While the Sack of King's Landing (and Elia's rape) was happening, Jaime was in the throne room killing Aerys. Even Tywin did not foresee Elia's murder, claiming "I doubt I mentioned her at all." Why would Jaime think to protect her?

For me it's very simple: heroes don't push children of a window. That's it. If I see someone killing someone and the killer kills me because I saw him, do you think that he is entitled to kill me? If Jaime didn't want to be in danger, he shouldn't have sex with his sister. Period.

I do agree that he is redeamable, and I find his arc very interesting, but he is no hero.

That's the thing, though. Heroes in A Song of Ice and Fire are not exactly what you'd normally describe heroes as. Jaime is one of the few characters on a "redemptive arc", meaning that he is moving towards something. While most of the POVs have grown and changed over the course of the series, Jaime has come to view his life in a whole new perspective, and I think there's a stronger case for him being any sort of hero than any number of the other POV characters.

[IRON BANK]

Can't believe I forgot this detail. It kind of shows that he did actually think about the consequences and he did weigh up the options, before resorting to the easiest and (probably) most effective.

Good post by the way.

I love the way we rationalize things away. If Jaimes act is so vile it shocks the person watching, to the point they almost slip and fall, then Jaime catches said person in mid fall and says to himself after he thinks about it through i'll just push him the rest of the way, This will be more effective. This line of thought is completely faulty. it shows you he just is not reacting he is killing with purpose. it does not make a decision better it compounds it, and causes even more problems. (jaime truly interesting character)

[Ludd]

There is no excuse for jaime. He is a weakling and a moral coward.

1. He kills Aerys - it was NOT about KL but it WAS to protect his father

2. He sits on the throne - Tell me he was NOT trying it out for size. - He expected Tywin to be king and he the heir.

3. He screws Cersai - despicable act for a so called knight. Of course he knew it was morally repulsive.

4. Once Cersai marries it was more than despicable it was an act of Treason to a second king he swore to protect

5. Attempted murder of Bran has no moral justification. He could have scared the boy or else pointed out to him that if he told, then it meant death for Tommen and Mycella. This would at least have bought time enough for he Cersai and the kids to flee.

[Minsc]

How could Jaime have done anything to protect Elia and her children from his father? He had no idea that Elia was being raped and murdered, most likely finding out after the fact. While the Sack of King's Landing (and Elia's rape) was happening, Jaime was in the throne room killing Aerys. Even Tywin did not foresee Elia's murder, claiming "I doubt I mentioned her at all." Why would Jaime think to protect her?

First, it is highly likely that Tywin actually ordered the rape and murder of Elia to satisfy his bloodthristy ego and was only lying when asked about it.

One would think that he would be smart enough to realize that with his father's men sacking the entire city that it might be probable that the King's Heirs(and former Crown Prince's family) might be in danger. Thus prompting him to get off his duff and see what he can do to protect them.

[crt]

Not really surprised to see people trying to rationalize or even justify Jaime's heinous acts. The guy is George's version of the bad boy trope.

[Ser Greg of House House]

First, in 5 thread pages, I haven't seen one person get the underlying facts right.

Jaime did not just push Bran out the window.

Bran slipped and fell entirely on his own. Jaime saved him. That was his instinctive reaction.

Then he realised what it meant, death for him and his lover. And then he pushed him out the window, removed his interference in the natural order. Bran died because he slipped and fell, not because Jaime pushed him out a window.

Sorry to spoil it to you, but Bran didn't die either :p

[corbon]

I love the way we rationalize things away. If Jaimes act is so vile it shocks the person watching, to the point they almost slip and fall,

Stick to the text, not your invented version of things.

Bran sat astride the gargoyle, tightened his legs around it, and swung himselfaround, upside down. He hung by his legs and slowly stretched his head down toward the window. The world looked strange upside down. A courtyard swam dizzily below him, its stones still wet with melted snow.

Bran looked in the window.

...

He must have made a noise. Suddenly her eyes opened, and she was staring right at him. She screamed.

Everything happened at once then. ' The woman pushed the man away wildly, shouting and pointing. Bran tried to pull himself up, bending double as he reached for the gargoyle. He was in too much of a hurry. His hand scraped uselessly across smooth stone, and in his panic his legs slipped, and suddenly he was failing. There was an instant of vertigo, a sickening lurch as the window flashed past. He shot out a hand, grabbed for the ledge, lost it, caught it again with his other hand. He swung against the building, hard. The impact took the breath out of him. Bran dangled, one-handed, panting.

There is no understanding of any vile act (he doesn't even understand it is sex, let alone vile), nor shock. Bran was in an extremely unsafe position and, caught peeking, he instinctively knew he was in the wrong (regardless on what he saw) and moved too quickly, slipped and fell. Before anyone did anything other than shout and point.

He caught himself, one handed, knocking his breath out with the impact.

Bran's fingers started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. "Take my hand," he said. "Before you fall." Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up to the ledge. "What are you doing?" the woman demanded. The man ignored her. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. "How old are you, boy?"

Bran is slipping, losing his grip, and destined to fall. Jaime saves him and hauls him up.

"Seven," Bran said, shaking with relief. His fingers had dug deep gouges in the man's forearm. He let go sheepishly. The man looked over at the woman. "The things I do for love," he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.

Jaime loathes what he must do here, but do it he must.

There is no excuse for jaime. He is a weakling and a moral coward.

1. He kills Aerys - it was NOT about KL but it WAS to protect his father

2. He sits on the throne - Tell me he was NOT trying it out for size. - He expected Tywin to be king and he the heir.

3. He screws Cersai - despicable act for a so called knight. Of course he knew it was morally repulsive.

4. Once Cersai marries it was more than despicable it was an act of Treason to a second king he swore to protect

5. Attempted murder of Bran has no moral justification. He could have scared the boy or else pointed out to him that if he told, then it meant death for Tommen and Mycella. This would at least have bought time enough for he Cersai and the kids to flee.

1. You know this how? Note how the killing comes immediately after Aerys' plans for KL are made clear,.

2. You know this how? Noe that this goes against Jaime's thoughts in his own mind, where he is unlikely to lie.

3. So morally repulsive that it was standard for Kings? And it started before he was a knight, and was manipulated by Cersei all the way. But yes, it was wrong. Just not the way or the magnitude that it is presented.

4. Absolutely

5. Sure, lets leave my life, my lovers life, and her three kids lives hang on the silence of a kid who has no reason to obey. Forever.

Or, no matter how much we loath it, we can take the pragmatic course in the situation that does the least harm all round, especially to those we hold dear, and let nature take its course. The boy slipped and fell.

One would think that he would be smart enough to realize that with his father's men sacking the entire city that it might be probable that the King's Heirs(and former Crown Prince's family) might be in danger. Thus prompting him to get off his duff and see what he can do to protect them.

One would think that. Another would not. Jaime tells us he did not. Nor is it known whether this was actually practically feasible.

But you know, lets not let facts and what a character might or might not know or believe get in the way of a good hating...

Sorry to spoil it to you, but Bran didn't die either :P

Heh, quite right.

[Minsc]

One would think that. Another would not. Jaime tells us he did not. Nor is it known whether this was actually practically feasible.

But you know, lets not let facts and what a character might or might not know or believe get in the way of a good hating...

Nice to know your defense of Jaime rests upon him being an idiot.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2. He sits on the throne - Tell me he was NOT trying it out for size. - He expected Tywin to be king and he the heir.

You have any text proof for that?