[BOOK SPOILERS] Predictions for TV series: Season by Season

[protar]

Gilly has not done a single thing on the show that any other character cares about except Sam and the dead white walker. Sam talked Jon into staying in the Night's Watch twice in season 1, showed Bran how to get through the Wall (but BR could have done that since the Wall doesn't have a magic door in the show), and figured out how to kill white walkers which probably won't be relevant until season 6 at earliest. Sam and Gilly are sweet, but in a show filled with battles and intrigue and kings, it is weird to spend so much time on them walking and camping. It is time for those characters to contribute to the overarching story of the show in a bigger way than arguing with an extra and briefly meeting Arya.

And how exactly do you propose they do that without sending them to Braavos? The baby switch is really the only important thing Gilly does that's relevant to the wider plot. Mostly she is just a satellite love interest for Sam.

[protar]

You still have not given any good reason WHY they would change it, when staying in Braavos would be far less interesting, would not save any time, would require contrived explanations, and the show already has a boat to shoot the scenes on.

The one-episode actor thing is a non-issue. The show does that quite a lot.

Well the only reason that Sam ends up on the Cinnamon Wind is because Xhondo overhears Sam talking about Dany's dragons, which he has seen. That hasn't happened in the show. Additionally, while the show does occasionally cast minor characters for just a couple of episodes they avoid it where they can. If there is a perfectly good way of avoiding having to cast those characters - which there is - then they won't cast them.

Also I fail to see why staying on Braavos would be any less interesting or would require contrived explanations. The events would be pretty similar and so just as interesting as if they were on a boat. Moreso if Arya can continue to interact with Sam and co. And no explanation is needed other than "they haven't got a boat yet."

[Janicia]

And how exactly do you propose they do that without sending them to Braavos? The baby switch is really the only important thing Gilly does that's relevant to the wider plot. Mostly she is just a satellite love interest for Sam.

I think the Citadel should be set in Bravos so that Sam and Gilly start interacting with the maesters right away. Gilly probably knows more about white walkers than anybody else south of the Wall, and apparently she's related to a bunch of (all of?) the white walkers, so they attract the immediate attention of Marwyn. Arya, rather than Jaqen (or with Jaqen?), infiltrates the Citadel to steal information from Marwyn. Since it is just for information rather than a kill, it isn't insane to send Arya to do that for a training mission. Anyway, that puts Arya, Sam, Gilly, and Marwyn together; it raises the concern that Arya might kill people we care about rather than extras, and while Sam and Gilly are still fairly passive at least they're in an important place and they're not getting their own scenes being passive.

[protar]

I think the Citadel should be set in Bravos so that Sam and Gilly start interacting with the maesters right away. Gilly probably knows more about white walkers than anybody else south of the Wall, and apparently she's related to a bunch of (all of?) the white walkers, so they attract the immediate attention of Marwyn. Arya, rather than Jaqen (or with Jaqen?), infiltrates the Citadel to steal information from Marwyn. Since it is just for information rather than a kill, it isn't insane to send Arya to do that for a training mission. Anyway, that puts Arya, Sam, Gilly, and Marwyn together; it raises the concern that Arya might kill people we care about rather than extras, and while Sam and Gilly are still fairly passive at least they're in an important place and they're not getting their own scenes being passive.

There are quite a few problems with that just from what we know already, and if we knew the plot of TWOW it would probably be far more problematic:

• The Maesters are a Westerosi organisation. It makes no sense for the Citadel to be in Braavos. If they absolutely must merge the Citadel with a prior location it should be Kings Landing but I don't think that will happen.

It pushes into Sam's TWOW arc which puts him out of sync with the rest of the story completely unnecessarily.

Arya is presumably doing something of her own in TWOW so she can't be at the Citadel.

[Hippocras]

Well the only reason that Sam ends up on the Cinnamon Wind is because Xhondo overhears Sam talking about Dany's dragons, which he has seen. That hasn't happened in the show. Additionally, while the show does occasionally cast minor characters for just a couple of episodes they avoid it where they can. If there is a perfectly good way of avoiding having to cast those characters - which there is - then they won't cast them.

Also I fail to see why staying on Braavos would be any less interesting or would require contrived explanations. The events would be pretty similar and so just as interesting as if they were on a boat. Moreso if Arya can continue to interact with Sam and co. And no explanation is needed other than "they haven't got a boat yet."

Well I don't quite see it that way, but let's say they do reuse Sallador. Maybe not long after Sam leaves, Davos is sent to White Harbour with Sallador, Salador loses most of his ships in storms and deserts Stannis's cause, heads to Braavos and meets up with Sam. He might go to Oldtown simply for business, or to set up as a pirate again on the Stepstones. He could then be the one to take Sam, maybe because, even though he is fed up with Stannis, in the show he has seen the North and sympathizes with Sam's goals.

[Janicia]

There are quite a few problems with that just from what we know already, and if we knew the plot of TWOW it would probably be far more problematic:

• The Maesters are a Westerosi organisation. It makes no sense for the Citadel to be in Braavos. If they absolutely must merge the Citadel with a prior location it should be Kings Landing but I don't think that will happen.

It pushes into Sam's TWOW arc which puts him out of sync with the rest of the story completely unnecessarily.

Arya is presumably doing something of her own in TWOW so she can't be at the Citadel.

The only bank in the world is Bravosi. The mercenaries, ships, and assassins for Westerosi wars and political conflicts are hired in Bravos. Why shouldn't the university be in Bravos? Since the maesters are supposed to stand above politics anyway, there is no particular reason that they couldn't be trained in Bravos.

At the end of book 5, Sam is learning stuff at the Citadel. My proposed version has season 5 ending with Sam learning stuff at the Citadel. It is exactly in synch with the books. Pushing Sam's arrival at the Citadel back to season 6 would misalign him.

I don't imagine Arya staying at the Citadel long. The Faceless men are after something specific. And at the end of the 5 books and even into TWOW, she's in character on training missions for the faceless men. Again, she's synched up with the books for season 6.

[Hippocras]

The only bank in the world is Bravosi. The mercenaries, ships, and assassins for Westerosi wars and political conflicts are hired in Bravos. Why shouldn't the university be in Bravos? Since the maesters are supposed to stand above politics anyway, there is no particular reason that they couldn't be trained in Bravos.

Yes there is: Braavos is not in the Seven Kingdoms. Euron would never attack Braavos as part of his effort to become King of Westeros.

[protar]

The only bank in the world is Bravosi. The mercenaries, ships, and assassins for Westerosi wars and political conflicts are hired in Bravos. Why shouldn't the university be in Bravos? Since the maesters are supposed to stand above politics anyway, there is no particular reason that they couldn't be trained in Bravos.

It's not the biggest problem with your suggestion but to me it doesn't make much sense. Unlike mercenaries, assassins and bank loans, Maesters are a staple of every single castle in Westeros. It doesn't really make sense that such a pivotal part of Westerosi culture takes place entirely within another nation, especially as there is not a single Braavosi Maester.

Just FYI The Iron Bank isn't the only one in the world, and so far as I'm aware the Westerosi don't get ships from Braavos.

ETA: Also what Hippocras said.

[protar]

Well I don't quite see it that way, but let's say they do reuse Sallador. Maybe not long after Sam leaves, Davos is sent to White Harbour with Sallador, Salador loses most of his ships in storms and deserts Stannis's cause, heads to Braavos and meets up with Sam. He might go to Oldtown simply for business, or to set up as a pirate again on the Stepstones. He could then be the one to take Sam, maybe because, even though he is fed up with Stannis, in the show he has seen the North and sympathizes with Sam's goals.

Possibly, although that is a lot of set up just to get Sam a ship when he could more easily hitch a ride off of Jaqen. Plus I'm starting to doubt White Harbour will be in the show but that's a different story.

[King Tommen]

Possibly, although that is a lot of set up just to get Sam a ship when he could more easily hitch a ride off of Jaqen. Plus I'm starting to doubt White Harbour will be in the show but that's a different story.

I would put decent money on it not being on the show. I'm also wondering if the Umbers will be substituted for the Manderly's as the stand-in Northern lords who oppose the Bolton/Frey alliance.

[Hippocras]

Possibly, although that is a lot of set up just to get Sam a ship when he could more easily hitch a ride off of Jaqen. Plus I'm starting to doubt White Harbour will be in the show but that's a different story.

Even without white Harbour Sallador is still likely to desert Stannis at some point.

[protar]

I would put decent money on it not being on the show. I'm also wondering if the Umbers will be substituted for the Manderly's as the stand-in Northern lords who oppose the Bolton/Frey alliance.

Yeah I think so. It allows them to take on the role of the Mountain Clans as well, which also means that Davos can stick around Stannis a bit longer rather than going on a solo adventure in S5. It's sad because Manderly is a badass and even if an Umber takes on his role it won't be quite the same. But it condenses characters, and saves time and money and that's the sort of change I can get behind.

[Janicia]

It's not the biggest problem with your suggestion but to me it doesn't make much sense. Unlike mercenaries, assassins and bank loans, Maesters are a staple of every single castle in Westeros. It doesn't really make sense that such a pivotal part of Westerosi culture takes place entirely within another nation, especially as there is not a single Braavosi Maester.

Just FYI The Iron Bank isn't the only one in the world, and so far as I'm aware the Westerosi don't get ships from Braavos.

ETA: Also what Hippocras said.

The Iron bank is the only bank we've seen in the show, and even in the books, it is by far the most important bank. And the maesters haven't been portrayed as a pivotal part of Westerosi culture in the show. The Lannisters in the show care a lot more about the Iron Bank than they do about the maesters - they all think Pycelle is useless but they never bothered to replace him because apparently having a useless maester around isn't a problem.

In a lot of ways, Bravos is a better place for the Citadel than OldTown anyway. Bravos is better defended. Westerosi politics are highly regional and tumultuous so it would be beneficial to separate the institution of maesters from a specific place in Westeros that might have enemies. Westerosi civil war threatens the entire institution of maesters. And there have been a lot of Westerosi civil wars. And this is a world that has not reclaimed former glories -they're coasting on their ancestor's technology. There is a lot more higher learning to be gained in Essos than in Westeros.

Anyway, many show watchers are very hazy on the show's geography despite the opening sequence. The distinction that Bravos is in Essos but Oldtown is in a new corner of Westeros is not going to be prominent in show watcher's minds, nor is it important in the show before Oldtown is attacked, if indeed it actually is attacked in the books and that ends up mattering.

I was referring to Stannis hiring ships from a pirate that apparently lives in Bravos (Davos mentioned sending the gold payment to Sallador's wife, so she must live near Bravos).

[Hippocras]

But having a foreign power in charge of training people who are inserted as advisors into every Westerosi household makes sense how?

And Euron.

[Janicia]

But having a foreign power in charge of training people who are inserted as advisors into every Westerosi household makes sense how?

And Euron.

If the only university is in Bravos, people are going to have to spend time in Bravos to get educated and lords that want to have maesters around will have to get used to some foreign ideas. Further, the maester job description seems to be: physician, raven handler, tutor for children, advisor if I'm in a good mood. Even when Maester Luwin was running Winterfell with Bran, too many troops were sent to relieve the minor lord from Theon's attack against Maester Luwin's advice. If a maester can't get his way under those circumstances, when is his advice heeded? Is it clear that Ned would believe Bravos to be a worse influence than southern Westeros on his maester's ideological purity? Is it clear that Cersei finds foreign ideas more threatening than those of southern Westeros? Most Westerosi probably trust Bravos more than some parts of Westeros.

If the Westerosi had a serious problem with Bravos having say over their internal affairs, they wouldn't go to the Iron Bank so freely.

We don't know whether Euron will actually attack Oldtown or what will come of it. It is hard to make any educated argument about that. Even if Euron sacks Oldtown, a lot of battles mentioned in the books have been skipped in the show, including most of Robb's campaign which was pretty central to the story.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

The show has been hesitant in moving institutions around so far, even if they change names and paces and everything. So I can't see them placing the citadel somewhere else. But Sam's arc doesn't need the "citadel" per se, just a library to learn about white walkers (and that can be at Kings Landing, less likely in Braavos, but why not - but then again, why?).

As they like to put characters together for interesting combinations and travel distances don't matter in the show, why not have Sam go with Sallador and Davos to White Harbour (Sam can answer Manderley "the Watch doesn't prefer one King before another, but looks out for the realm. Stannis came when we called for help, so we gave him shelter, but not for always") and then move on with Sallador to Braavos/Kings Landing/Oldtown when Davos is put in chains...

I'm not saying I'm a fan necessarily, just pointing out scenarios.

[Hippocras]

If the only university is in Bravos, people are going to have to spend time in Bravos to get educated and lords that want to have maesters around will have to get used to some foreign ideas. Further, the maester job description seems to be: physician, raven handler, tutor for children, advisor if I'm in a good mood. Even when Maester Luwin was running Winterfell with Bran, too many troops were sent to relieve the minor lord from Theon's attack against Maester Luwin's advice. If a maester can't get his way under those circumstances, when is his advice heeded? Is it clear that Ned would believe Bravos to be a worse influence than southern Westeros on his maester's ideological purity? Is it clear that Cersei finds foreign ideas more threatening than those of southern Westeros? Most Westerosi probably trust Bravos more than some parts of Westeros.

If the Westerosi had a serious problem with Bravos having say over their internal affairs, they wouldn't go to the Iron Bank so freely.

We don't know whether Euron will actually attack Oldtown or what will come of it. It is hard to make any educated argument about that. Even if Euron sacks Oldtown, a lot of battles mentioned in the books have been skipped in the show, including most of Robb's campaign which was pretty central to the story.

Let's put it this way: I would be shocked and dismayed if they did this and would not understand why at all. Finding a set location that resembles and ancient university is not that hard, and that is all that is needed, aside from a new spot on the opening sequence in season 6. They need this no matter where they say the scenes are taking place. Might as well be Oldtown.

The maesters are clearly linked to the Faith of the Seven to a very large degree, and that is a Westerosi thing practiced elsewhere only by exhiles and travelling Westerosi. No one is Essos has maesters.

Euron is making a bid to crown himself king of the Seven Kingdoms, and his first stop is Oldtown, probably because of the Citadel. He has absolutely no reason to attack Braavos.

Oldtown is the entry point that brings total war to the South, combined with Aegon's attack in the Stormlands. There are going to be dynamics there that will make no sense if the Citadel is in Braavos.

[Janicia]

Let's put it this way: I would be shocked and dismayed if they did this and would not understand why at all. Finding a set location that resembles and ancient university is not that hard, and that is all that is needed, aside from a new spot on the opening sequence in season 6. They need this no matter where they say the scenes are taking place. Might as well be Oldtown.

The maesters are clearly linked to the Faith of the Seven to a very large degree, and that is a Westerosi thing practiced elsewhere only by exhiles and travelling Westerosi. No one is Essos has maesters.

Euron is making a bid to crown himself king of the Seven Kingdoms, and his first stop is Oldtown, probably because of the Citadel. He has absolutely no reason to attack Braavos.

Oldtown is the entry point that brings total war to the South, combined with Aegon's attack in the Stormlands. There are going to be dynamics there that will make no sense if the Citadel is in Braavos.

I just don't think Oldtown is going to be as important as you think it is, particularly in the show which has only dabbled in the history, religion, and customs of the world. We know Oldtown isn't currently important in the show universe because Westeros has been in civil war for three years and has seen two kings die and there hasn't been a peep from Oldtown. Pycelle is content to be a Lannister lackey and both the Citadel and successive kings have been fine with having a useless lackey representing the maesters in the capital.

There are only so many places that can be of highest importance, even in the books. Whatever important things Sarella, Sam, and Marwyn end up doing, I doubt they will do those things in Oldtown. More likely that they'll flee Oldtown because of the Ironborn attack and then end up actually doing important things somewhere else. I don't expect to see White Harbor either; plotting can happen at Winterfell.

[Hippocras]

Well we will see what WoW says!

I think Euron has been set up to be a very very serious problem for everyone. He is attacking Oldtown because they have things he needs for his plan. It is possible the beast from a smoking tower prophesy is Oldtown, the Hightower. If so, pretty hard to skip the location.

The show included Moat Cailin. They could have skipped that but did not. They also gave us Saltpans, we saw as Arya was leaving.

I just don't see Oldtown on the chopping block. Volantis, yes. Probably also White Harbour. But not Oldtown.

[Ruin]

Ross Mullan's interview on YT is pretty interesting in regards to the NK and WW content.