Royces, Starks and Waynwoods-- Corbrays and Templetons too

[Stoned Dragon]

That's a very good point. What strikes me about Littlefinger's "explanation" to Sansa is that (like everything else that comes out of his mouth) it's a bit too flip, too pat. To Sansa's valid questions (she specifically raises her marriage to Tyrion) he basically tells her "Don't worry Harry will marry my daughter, Alayne." But then he adds the bit about the dower and presenting her as a Stark at the wedding. I'm curious as to what he could have offered Lady Anya to overcome the "wroth" of Bronze Yohn, if not Sansa's true identity.

By the way-- another good point is Lady Anya's past support of the Stark cause. In that she was joined by Bronze Yohn (who hoped to marry his daughter to Harry Hardyng), Symond Templeton and Lords Redfort and Belmore. All of whom became Lords Declarant.

Would Bronze Yohn even be upset at Lady Anya for that long? Before Sansa is revealed, he'd likely be wroth at Harry marrying Littlefinger's supposed bastard, but once Alayne is revealed to be Sansa Stark that anger would probably end. Bronze can't be upset that the future Lord of the Vale chose the potential Lady of Winterfell over his daughter, even if they are Royces.

Littlefinger purchased their family's debt, but he didn't forgive it. I'm sure that Lady Anya is just trying to make sure she gets in Littlefinger's good graces enough for him to forgive the debt entirely.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Would Bronze Yohn even be upset at Lady Anya for that long? Before Sansa is revealed, he'd likely be wroth at Harry marrying Littlefinger's supposed bastard, but once Alayne is revealed to be Sansa Stark that anger would probably end. Bronze can't be upset that the future Lord of the Vale chose the potential Lady of Winterfell over his daughter, even if they are Royces.

Littlefinger purchased their family's debt, but he didn't forgive it. I'm sure that Lady Anya is just trying to make sure she gets in Littlefinger's good graces enough for him to forgive the debt entirely.

That's exactly the point I wonder about.

Lady Anya wouldn't know that Bronze Yohn's wroth would be mitigated by the revelation of Alayne's identity unless LF had shared that information with her. If she thought she was choosing the bastard daughter of Littlefinger over BY's daughter she'd have a sight more to worry about, IMO.

[Stoned Dragon]

That's exactly the point I wonder about.

Lady Anya wouldn't know that Bronze Yohn's wroth would be mitigated by the revelation of Alayne's identity unless LF had shared that information with her. If she thought she was choosing the bastard daughter of Littlefinger over BY's daughter she'd have a sight more to worry about, IMO.

Maybe it all comes down to her only agreeing to introduce them.

Knowing that Bronze would be upset if she used her own authority to marry Harry to "Alayne," she instead only agreed to let the two meet each other. There is no guarantee that the two will be engaged, and even if the entire "meeting first" excuse is a lie and she's already agreed to the match, it provides Lady Anya plausible deniability and forces Royce to decide whether he will swallow his pride or retaliate against the family that fostered the future Lord of the Vale and publicly insult the Lord Protector and the future Lady of the Vale. He may suspect that Lady Anya sold Harry the Heir to Littlefinger to absolve her own debts, but there's nothing he can really do about it -- leaving Lady Anya with nothing but upside to the arrangement.

[sidenote: Honestly, Royce doesn't really have a reason to be anger. It's not as if Harry the Heir would have fallen for some bastard from Flea Bottom. Alayne is the only child of the current Lord Protector of the Vale, Lord of Harrenhall and Warden of the Riverlands. In the North, the newly installed Warden of the North had his bastard child legitimized and, through "marriage," was able to gift him Winterfell and a lordship of his own -- why isn't the same thing possible for Littlefinger and "Alayne." There's no reason Littlefinger couldn't get that request granted from Cersei before she falls. If Bronze were smart, he'd try and marry his daughter to Littlefinger. It probably wouldn't succeed, but if Alayne is married to Harry the Heir, then that means Littlefinger still doesn't have an heir for Harrenhall or his Wardenship -- and Harry the Heir won't need a Lord Protector. Again, Littlefinger probably wouldn't say yes -- but it's not as if there aren't other options for Bronze to go after]

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

The tidbit about the Royces being distant cousins of the Stark kids I thought was only important to establish the Royces as among the Basically Good Guys families, the sort of folks with enough first men blood to respect The Wall -- hence Waymar joining voluntarily way back at the very beginning of this song -- and of course, to give Cat a chance to employ tortured succession logic as an option doomed to rejection to enhance the dramatic effect of Robb telling her and us that No, Robb is making JON his heir.

It might also serve to set up the Royces as part of the pro-intervention faction in The Vale, as anti-Lannister (and anti-Littlefinger) and pro-Stark. Which means they would support The Blackfish if he's planning to turn back up there, and/or they will end up shielding Sansa from her enemies at home and in King's Landing when everyone finds out "Alayne's" true identity.

The Royces, of course, already know who she really is. :) Now that Myranda's amateur detective work has confirmed what Bronze Yohn likely suspected from the start.

Now, what are the Royces going to do with what they know but nobody else knows they know?

[juanml82]

The tidbit about the Royces being distant cousins of the Stark kids I thought was only important to establish the Royces as among the Basically Good Guys families, the sort of folks with enough first men blood to respect The Wall -- hence Waymar joining voluntarily way back at the very beginning of this song -- and of course, to give Cat a chance to employ tortured succession logic as an option doomed to rejection to enhance the dramatic effect of Robb telling her and us that No, Robb is making JON his heir.

It might also serve to set up the Royces as part of the pro-intervention faction in The Vale, as anti-Lannister (and anti-Littlefinger) and pro-Stark. Which means they would support The Blackfish if he's planning to turn back up there, and/or they will end up shielding Sansa from her enemies at home and in King's Landing when everyone finds out "Alayne's" true identity.

The Royces, of course, already know who she really is. :) Now that Myranda's amateur detective work has confirmed what Bronze Yohn likely suspected from the start.

Now, what are the Royces going to do with what they know but nobody else knows they know?

Think that helping Sansa regain her lost homeland was their idea and not Littlefinger's?

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Think that helping Sansa regain her lost homeland was their idea and not Littlefinger's?

Nah, Bronze Yohn is LF's real enemy, not his pretend-enemy-actually-collaborator like Lyn Corbray.

LF grabbing Winterfell via Sansa is all LF's idea.

Littlefinger does not know that The Royces know (he's not present when Sansa meets Myranda, and Myranda is all about throwing that story about Jon Snow out as bait, and when Sansa bites Myranda has confirmation of her true identity, which Yohn likely suspected from the moment she showed up in The Vale) and right now that's likely the edge The Royces have on Littlefinger. After all, LF has often told us that information is power :)

[Starkfaithful85]

Not to mention that once the marriage becomes public, Littlefinger would basically be declaring himself an enemy of the Iron Throne and the Lannisters (Sansa is wanted for Joff's murder, after all). And he would be involving the Vale in the war Lysa managed to keep them out of.

Here is something I was wondering. if LF reveals sansa declaring himself against the iron throne who will march on the vale...certainly not the tyrells...i doubt the boltons would/could since their current grasp on the north is hanging by a thread...could cersei's rage about joffrey's murder be the downfall of house lannister that we have been waiting so long for...hear me out, jaime is missing, kevan is dead, daven essentially is the lannister strength at arms until jaime comes back...what if cersei in her blind rafe orders daven to march on the vale to avenge her son's death

side note: I get that cersei has no power of the IT until she faces her trial, but she is still the lady of casterly rock and could make this request/demand of daven on behalf of house lannister

let me know what yall think about this

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Well it seems like he has to either wait for the Tyrion/Sansa marriage to be annulled, and with both of them missing and Wanted For Regicide there's no way to to do that that doesn't immediately draw suspicion on the official doing the annulment. Except, of course, for there being Confirmation Of Tyrion's Death (which if the tension in ACOK is any indicator, Littlefinger would want Tyrion dead anyway).

Littlefinger also would seemingly have to wait until it's safe for him to openly turn on the Lannisters since revealing Sansa means revealing himself as having sheltered Sansa all this time and logically the person responsible for smuggling a Kingslayer out of King's Landing in the first place even in a sane mind (doubly so in Cersei's paranoid wonderland of grey matter). This means the Lannisters being completely deposed and broken, perhaps even destroyed, someone completely new on the throne, or as my favorite recurring phrase in ASOIAF goes, "near enough as to make no matter", i.e. they are a spent force.

Cersei having nothing left but to recall Daven from his Warden Of The West post to try and invade The Vale in the dead of winter -- assuming he could even get past the New Nastier Brotherhood Without Banners and whatever trap they seem to be laying for him/The Freys, and The Blackfish, if he's still in the area, working towards the same basic goal as the Brotherhood even if they're not working together towards it -- would certainly seem to be a last-ditch effort that LF could be confident in surviving, especially since even the Lords Declarant probably still hate him less than they hate The Lannisters. Even LF and Bronze Yohn Royce could be temporary political bedfellows in that scenario. And Lyn Corbray just plain loves his killing, any excuse to use Lady Forlorn is a good one in his eyes. But then again even a 99% chance of winning is worse than a 100% chance [and what little we've seen of Daven would suggest he's at least Pretty Good at waging war and thus would at least stand some chance of invading successfully], so I don't think LF would want to provoke a war against him, so he'd try to wait until the Baratheon-Lannister Dynasty is completely deposed from official power.

Calling the banners and ultimately sending Daven to his demise does seem like a Cersei thing to do, though, I have to agree :D

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Well it seems like he has to either wait for the Tyrion/Sansa marriage to be annulled, and with both of them missing and Wanted For Regicide there's no way to to do that that doesn't immediately draw suspicion on the official doing the annulment. Except, of course, for there being Confirmation Of Tyrion's Death (which if the tension in ACOK is any indicator, Littlefinger would want Tyrion dead anyway).

Littlefinger also would seemingly have to wait until it's safe for him to openly turn on the Lannisters since revealing Sansa means revealing himself as having sheltered Sansa all this time and logically the person responsible for smuggling a Kingslayer out of King's Landing in the first place even in a sane mind (doubly so in Cersei's paranoid wonderland of grey matter). This means the Lannisters being completely deposed and broken, perhaps even destroyed, someone completely new on the throne, or as my favorite recurring phrase in ASOIAF goes, "near enough as to make no matter", i.e. they are a spent force.

Cersei having nothing left but to recall Daven from his Warden Of The West post to try and invade The Vale in the dead of winter -- assuming he could even get past the New Nastier Brotherhood Without Banners and whatever trap they seem to be laying for him/The Freys, and The Blackfish, if he's still in the area, working towards the same basic goal as the Brotherhood even if they're not working together towards it -- would certainly seem to be a last-ditch effort that LF could be confident in surviving, especially since even the Lords Declarant probably still hate him less than they hate The Lannisters. Even LF and Bronze Yohn Royce could be temporary political bedfellows in that scenario. And Lyn Corbray just plain loves his killing, any excuse to use Lady Forlorn is a good one in his eyes. But then again even a 99% chance of winning is worse than a 100% chance [and what little we've seen of Daven would suggest he's at least Pretty Good at waging war and thus would at least stand some chance of invading successfully], so I don't think LF would want to provoke a war against him, so he'd try to wait until the Baratheon-Lannister Dynasty is completely deposed from official power.

Calling the banners and ultimately sending Daven to his demise does seem like a Cersei thing to do, though, I have to agree :D

Littlefinger says straight out in Feast that the marriage between Sansa and Harry must wait until "Cersei is done and Sansa's safely widowed." He also says that he had hoped for "four or five quiet years" to "plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen" On a meta level, that could be GRRM mocking his abandonment of the five year gap. Practically though it means that LF may not have the time to befriend Symond Templeton in the Vale (it seems he's already bought Lord Belmore) and wait for the youngest Hunter son to make his move on his brothers. Also, I strongly suspect that his glee over the "three queens" indicates he is planning on throwing in with Dany. As I said upthread, if he knows about the dragons, I think he's pragmatic enough to think none will withstand her. This could be another fruit he was planning to ripen.

As for Lannisters invading the Vale, you make some great points. Daven is going to have his hands full in the West. I've made a strong case (at least I think so :lol:) in the GNC threads, and here, that the Blackfish (with some help from the BwB) will be a huge problem on the Westerlands border very soon. Plus, as you note, the BwB occupy most of the Riverlands and then there are also the extremely hostile and aggressive clans in the Mountains of the Moon to contend with. Add to that the fact that entire force of the Vale is largely untouched by the recent war and I really can't see any invading force assailing the Eyrie from the West, especially when we can be pretty certain that in the aftermath of Kevan's death the Lannisters (those few who remain) will have their hands full trying to hold onto the IT and KL.

However, much as a rational person can see that sending Daven to the Vale would be both foolish and hopeless, on a narrative level, since Daven represents the last of the Lannister strength, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Cersei does try to send him off on some emotional wild goose chase. If she destroys him and his army in the process she will have no one left. Her aunt and uncle at Riverrun aren't long for the world and I strongly suspect her brother Jaime is either going native or getting himself killed. Either way, he's not coming to her rescue. The rest of the Lannisters are children and their allies will all most likely abandon them when the cards are down. I think that's when we'll see the stark (pun intended :D) difference between ruling by inspiring fear and ruling by inspiring loyalty.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

I think that's when we'll see the stark (pun intended :D) difference between ruling by inspiring fear and ruling by inspiring loyalty.

And Ned's final victory over Tywin, yes.

We're already seeing it, really. People are scattering from the Lannisters from the instant Tywin's not around to extort compliance from them. Kevan Going Home on Cersei after the funeral is quite telling. Or maybe Cersei just has that magic way of alienating people :) Meanwhile podunk Northern Clansman are practically lining up to freeze to death on the off chance that they might rescue Ned's Little Girl. Nobody's volunteering to die of thirst in the Dornish Desert to try and get Myrcella back.

[anizzle]

Her aunt and uncle at Riverrun aren't long for the world and I strongly suspect her brother Jaime is either going native or getting himself killed.

By no means am I Lannister fan, but I love me some Genna. I just want her and QoT have a spin-off series where they rule the world, and say smart and sassy things. I would be sad to see Genna go.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

By no means am I Lannister fan, but I love me some Genna. I just want her and QoT have a spin-off series where they rule the world, and say smart and sassy things. I would be sad to see Genna go.

Sad to say the BwB don't seem to have much mercy where anyone named Frey is concerned. I doubt being born a Lannister will help much either.

Sorry Genna :frown5:

[Carter209]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Harry have Waynwood blood? Because if he does, then the premise of the Waynwoods being Robb's "cousins in the Vale" would be why Anya Waynwood would want to marry Harry and Sansa. It would tie her family's claim to the legitimate Stark line. Plus I don't think any Vale Lord/Lady would be that angry with LF for protecting Sansa and then wanting to use their forces to fight the Lannisters. The only roadblock they had to getting involved in the war in the first place fell from the Eyrie, so Bronze Yohn and the others would go along with LF. That is, until Sansa uses Harry or the hairnet to get rid of him.

On the topic of who Cersei would send to the Vale, I think it'd be Robert Strong. When Cersei finds out about Sansa she'll send UnGregor to kill her, which, IMO, will be where Brienne, Jaime, and Sandor put a permanent end to him. We have yet to see Bran's vision from GOT come to fruition yet, and I think this is where it happens.

One more question: Does anyone honestly think the Vale lords don't know who Alayne Stone is? Because between Myranda Royce talking about Jon on the way down from the Eyrie, to Lady Waynwood suddenly allowing Harry to marry "Alayne" out of left field, I think it's safe to assume that Bronze Yohn and Nestor Royce, plus Lady Waynwood know who she is at the bare minimum. The conversation choice by Myranda seemed to...planned, to me.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

One more question: Does anyone honestly think the Vale lords don't know who Alayne Stone is? Because between Myranda Royce talking about Jon on the way down from the Eyrie, to Lady Waynwood suddenly allowing Harry to marry "Alayne" out of left field, I think it's safe to assume that Bronze Yohn and Nestor Royce, plus Lady Waynwood know who she is at the bare minimum. The conversation choice by Myranda seemed to...planned, to me.

Yeah I touched on this a few posts up:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98676-royces-starks-and-waynwoods-corbrays-and-templetons-too/?p=5072127

Bronze Yohn probably smelled a rat from the moment LF showed up with her, and Myranda's mission -- now accomplished -- was to talk to her and confirm/deny BY's suspicions. They know and, perhaps more importantly, LF doesn't know that they know.

Whether or not the Royces have told anybody, trust anyone else enough to tell them, or plan on sitting on this themselves until their time is right, remains to be seen. Other Lords Declarant and their families are probably suspicious. But yes, at minimum The Royces know who she is.

[Pearlthegirl]

Nah, Bronze Yohn is LF's real enemy, not his pretend-enemy-actually-collaborator like Lyn Corbray.

LF grabbing Winterfell via Sansa is all LF's idea.

Littlefinger does not know that The Royces know (he's not present when Sansa meets Myranda, and Myranda is all about throwing that story about Jon Snow out as bait, and when Sansa bites Myranda has confirmation of her true identity, which Yohn likely suspected from the moment she showed up in The Vale) and right now that's likely the edge The Royces have on Littlefinger. After all, LF has often told us that information is power :)

I like this thinking. ^^^^

LF's plan makes little to no sense to me.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

The Royces knowing, by the way, is why I'm so eager to see what happens next in The Vale and Sansa ADWD Chapters were sorely missed by me in their absence. What a cliffhanger :)

[Pearlthegirl]

On the topic of who Cersei would send to the Vale, I think it'd be Robert Strong. When Cersei finds out about Sansa she'll send UnGregor to kill her, which, IMO, will be where Brienne, Jaime, and Sandor put a permanent end to him. We have yet to see Bran's vision from GOT come to fruition yet, and I think this is where it happens.

I'm liking this too!

[Carter209]

Yeah I touched on this a few posts up:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98676-royces-starks-and-waynwoods-corbrays-and-templetons-too/?p=5072127

Bronze Yohn probably smelled a rat from the moment LF showed up with her, and Myranda's mission -- now accomplished -- was to talk to her and confirm/deny BY's suspicions. They know and, perhaps more importantly, LF doesn't know that they know.

Whether or not the Royces have told anybody, trust anyone else enough to tell them, or plan on sitting on this themselves until their time is right, remains to be seen. Other Lords Declarant and their families are probably suspicious. But yes, at minimum The Royces know who she is.

So I guess my next question would be: Are we starting to see LF getting outplayed? Is it an educated guess that Harry knows who "Alayne" really is, and will try to get not just her, but also Sweetrobin away from LF at some point? Because he/she who holds Sweetrobin holds the Vale, right?

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

So I guess my next question would be: Are we starting to see LF getting outplayed? Is it an educated guess that Harry knows who "Alayne" really is, and will try to get not just her, but also Sweetrobin away from LF at some point? Because he/she who holds Sweetrobin holds the Vale, right?

POSSIBLY. Myranda taking full advantage of her chance to talk to "Alayne" WITHOUT Littlefinger around is an encouraging sign along those lines. But we don't know enough about The Vale and the powerful people in it to know who the Royces might like/trust/work with/etc. Ultimately we will still have to wait and see (and rampantly speculate, as we do with all other things on this forum :) ). And keep our fingers crossed that nobody who knows Alayne's True Identity is dumb enough to blab it to Lyn Corbray as part of an attempt to "include him" on the plot. :)

[Petyr Patter]

Let me throw out another question, How does knowing Sansa's identity actually benefit the Royces or Waynwoods?

It seems to me any conspiracy going on right now is not trying to revolt from the Iron Throne or restore the Starks to Winterfell, but rather just get Littlefinger out of the Vale, and see if Robert Arryn has any chance to be a true Lord Paramount. Where does Sansa or Alayne fit into this? Especially a Sansa they have no reason to think is anything but Littlefinger's pawn at this time. I get that the Starks have some good will left over from Eddard's time as a ward and the Lannisters (and Petyr by extension) have a "debt of ill will" left over from supposedly murdering Jon, executing Eddard, and just perhaps getting Robert killed.

Yet, I still think any Vale lord who got their hands on Sansa Stark, would either sell her to the Lannisters, or marry her for her claim to Winterfell.

Just some thoughts.