Royces, Starks and Waynwoods-- Corbrays and Templetons too

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Are you sure that this is correct? Because I don't see how Sansa ever had a claim on the Rock, only that her husband did. By this view Cersei would have a claim to the Iron Throne and Catelyn on Winterfell since they are married to the holders of each of these titles. As far as I understood succession it only goes with biological kinship, marrying into a family isn't enough to press a claim.

I don't think it's a true "claim" no, but given that I think the Lannisters are burning themselves out at an alarming rate, and that LF intends to ingratiate himself with Dany, who won't exactly want to leave Cersei-spawn in charge of the whole West , I think he may try to use that proximity somehow. Basically, LF covers his bases-- we know he has contingency plans in place. I find it interesting that Sansa is so well connected, well beyond the North, and think LF would as well and try to use it to his advantage any way he could.

[Colonel Green]

Are you sure that this is correct? Because I don't see how Sansa ever had a claim on the Rock, only that her husband did. By this view Cersei would have a claim to the Iron Throne and Catelyn on Winterfell since they are married to the holders of each of these titles. As far as I understood succession it only goes with biological kinship, marrying into a family isn't enough to press a claim.

It's not, generally.

We do see examples of wives continuing to hold a lordship after their husband's death (Lady Dustin and Lady Hornwood), but in both instances the implication is that there aren't any blood heirs to that house remaining, and the wife serves as a kind of proximate heir/trustee (the weird part is that the latter case acknowledges that there is actually another Hornwood, Leobald Tallhart's wife, but for whatever reason she didn't inherit when her brother died).

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

It's not, generally.

We do see examples of wives continuing to hold a lordship after their husband's death (Lady Dustin and Lady Hornwood), but in both instances the implication is that there aren't any blood heirs to that house remaining, and the wife serves as a kind of proximate heir/trustee (the weird part is that the latter case acknowledges that there is actually another Hornwood, Leobald Tallhart's wife, but for whatever reason she didn't inherit when her brother died).

Let's not forget Lysa Arryn, who passed control of the Vale along to her second husband ;)

[Carter209]

Something I was just thinking about with regards to a GNC-Riverlands-Vale loose confederation of conspiracies struck me.

The GNC is predicated (I think, this might be one of the assorted changes to the theory) on the fact that Stannis and the Boltons wear their forces out to the point where the Northern loyalists put Rickon back in Winterfell and declare independence. I do believe that Stannis, who wins the Battle in the Ice, will bend to this by betrothing Shireen to Rickon(even though this opens up another can of worms), thereby making his daughter a Queen.

My question then becomes: Does Sansa, who has probably been getting close to Harry, go directly to Bronze Yohn and knowingly reveal herself to get the help of the Vale for her brother? As soon as Rickon shows back up he's going to be in danger, and the one person in the North that Rickon would be extremely secure with(like hell Jon would be away from Rickon for any span of time to protect his half-brother/cousin) just got Caesared at the Wall. If Harry is even remotely similar to Robert Baratheon, I believe he would lobby to lead the Vale armies through the Bloody Gate to stop any southern force from going North after Rickon, just because he has fallen hard for Sansa, much in the same way Robert did for Lyanna. The BWB would do what it could to keep any force from going North, anyway, but if the Vale forces stay to the south of Moat Cailin, they would give time for the Northmen to shut and bar the door to the North.

Another way to look at it would be for Harry/Bronze Yohn to pass along the information that Sansa's in the Vale to someone like Manderly or Glover, and would suggest keeping Rickon and possibly Shireen in the Vale at Runestone. This would put Sansa's little brother and his future wife in the middle of the most fortified region in Westeros with fresh armies. Stannis could still wage his war either at the Wall or south of the Neck, knowing that his daughter is safe in the Vale, threatened only by LF, who's not going to lead an all-out assault on Runestone. Sansa wouldn't be his pawn anymore if he did that.

[Colonel Green]

Let's not forget Lysa Arryn, who passed control of the Vale along to her second husband ;)

Lysa was the guardian of a minor child heir, whose marriage granted similar status to her new husband. That's a totally different sort of legal regime, and is inherently temporary (her children by another husband would have no rights to the Eyrie).

[Gurkhal]

I don't think it's a true "claim" no, but given that I think the Lannisters are burning themselves out at an alarming rate, and that LF intends to ingratiate himself with Dany, who won't exactly want to leave Cersei-spawn in charge of the whole West , I think he may try to use that proximity somehow. Basically, LF covers his bases-- we know he has contingency plans in place. I find it interesting that Sansa is so well connected, well beyond the North, and think LF would as well and try to use it to his advantage any way he could.

He could, but Sansa's main "advantage" to the Arryn and Stark lines is that those lines are close to extinct on the male side as far as anyone knows and therefor Sansa comes into play. With the Lannisters there are so many lions left that Sansa isn't going to come close in the line of inheritance. Also I'm not sure that Littlefinger could weasle himself into Tywin's West in the same way that he could into the Vale and king's Landing.

It's not, generally.

We do see examples of wives continuing to hold a lordship after their husband's death (Lady Dustin and Lady Hornwood), but in both instances the implication is that there aren't any blood heirs to that house remaining, and the wife serves as a kind of proximate heir/trustee (the weird part is that the latter case acknowledges that there is actually another Hornwood, Leobald Tallhart's wife, but for whatever reason she didn't inherit when her brother died).

I pretty much agree with this but it also says that for this to work then the lady themselves have been married to the actual lord and not only married to the heir of the lord before that heir held any titles.

Let's not forget Lysa Arryn, who passed control of the Vale along to her second husband ;)

While this is what practically happened it isn't what formally happened. Formally I believe that Lysa ruled as regent for her son, she married Littlefinger the Creep who then seized/was granted regency for Sweetrobin after Lysa's death. Formally Robert Arryn is the lord of the Vale and not Littlefinger.

[Ludd]

This thread has given me a nasty thought

What if the second daughter of Edwyles sister married Walder Frey ie was Perra Royce. This would make the Freys heirs to Winterfell after Harry the Heir

This may make the Frey Red Wedding Risk more comprehensible. With Rickon and Bran supposedly dead and Sansa married to Tyrion an unacceptable dwarf, removal of Robb immediately places the Freys in direct line to Winterfell. At the beginning of the book there was Ned, 5 legitimate children and a bastard (7 Starks) plus Harry the Heir aahead of Freys ie 8 people in front of any Freys. Succession by Freys would seem unlikely.

Just before the Red Wedding suddenly there is only Robb, Sansa (2 Starks) , Harry . Removing Robb and his potential heirs, suddenly makes the inheritance of Winterfell much more likely. There is then only Sansa (married to a dwarf), and Harry the Heir ahead of the weasels.

Alternatively the various Waynwoods who married Freys could be the heirs.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Lysa was the guardian of a minor child heir, whose marriage granted similar status to her new husband. That's a totally different sort of legal regime, and is inherently temporary (her children by another husband would have no rights to the Eyrie).

True, they are not completely analogous. The theme of widow wielding power from her husband's seat is similar though, which was the thrust of the earlier comment.

He could, but Sansa's main "advantage" to the Arryn and Stark lines is that those lines are close to extinct on the male side as far as anyone knows and therefor Sansa comes into play. With the Lannisters there are so many lions left that Sansa isn't going to come close in the line of inheritance. Also I'm not sure that Littlefinger could weasle himself into Tywin's West in the same way that he could into the Vale and king's Landing.

I pretty much agree with this but it also says that for this to work then the lady themselves have been married to the actual lord and not only married to the heir of the lord before that heir held any titles.

While this is what practically happened it isn't what formally happened. Formally I believe that Lysa ruled as regent for her son, she married Littlefinger the Creep who then seized/was granted regency for Sweetrobin after Lysa's death. Formally Robert Arryn is the lord of the Vale and not Littlefinger.

Basically and without getting into a discussion of Sansa's status in the Lannister inheritance, I was commenting on Sansa's proximity to the major Lordships of Westeros and speculating how Littlefinger may try to turn that to his advantage. My original comment was that she is in a position to claim, drawing a distinction (that maybe only existed in my mind, lol) between claiming and inheriting. Although as far as Lannisters go, see my comments earlier or take a gander at their family tree. Tywin and Kevan are dead and the rest of the Lannisters are dropping like flies-- those that remain are on narrative thin ice and if Dany takes the IT (which is what I believe LF is counting on) will she keep the survivors around?

I believe LF thinks the Lannisters and Tullys are finished, as he thinks he holds the last living Stark and the the last Arryn. He thinks (I suspect) that he will be able to ingratiate himself with the last Targaryen. His Stark has connections to both the Lannisters and the Tullys at high levels and I don't think any of this escapes him.

I also don't think Sansa has a chance on Planetos of being named Lady of the Rock, but I do think LF will try to wring every possible advantage he can from his "possession" of her. If the Lannister inheritance is an angle, he'll play it.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This thread has given me a nasty thought

What if the second daughter of Edwyles sister married Walder Frey ie was Perra Royce. This would make the Freys heirs to Winterfell after Harry the Heir

This may make the Frey Red Wedding Risk more comprehensible. With Rickon and Bran supposedly dead and Sansa married to Tyrion an unacceptable dwarf, removal of Robb immediately places the Freys in direct line to Winterfell. At the beginning of the book there was Ned, 5 legitimate children and a bastard (7 Starks) plus Harry the Heir aahead of Freys ie 8 people in front of any Freys. Succession by Freys would seem unlikely.

Just before the Red Wedding suddenly there is only Robb, Sansa (2 Starks) , Harry . Removing Robb and his potential heirs, suddenly makes the inheritance of Winterfell much more likely. There is then only Sansa (married to a dwarf), and Harry the Heir ahead of the weasels.

Alternatively the various Waynwoods who married Freys could be the heirs.

A very scary thought :uhoh:

I think I can talk you off the ledge though. Catelyn was certain (she actually used the word certain) about the Waynwood and the Corbray, it was the marriage of the youngest daughter that was to "maybe a Templeton" Since I've offered a speculative birthdate of the eldest sister around 215-220 (215 is a very early guess, probably the earliest possible) the third sister would be somewhere around 219-224 or later (using the average 2 year gap between children) We have an estimated marriage year of Lord Walder and Lady Perra of 230, with their first surviving child born c.234. So yes, it is technically possible that Lady Perra married Lord Walder at the age of 11 or 12 and had her first child at the age of 15, but if you use the later dates it falls apart. At any rate the Freys wouldn't have a claim to Winterfell as Lady Perra would have been the youngest daughter and the Waynwoods and Corbrays would come ahead of her.

Frankly, I'm more concerned about Ser Lyn being in the line. It seems like the Waynwood daughter was elder based on the way Catelyn lists them, but if the Corbray was, then Ser Lyn would be the heir (based on the one lord, one seat tradition) If it's the Waynwoods, then I'd guess the heir is Ser Donnel, the present Knight of the Gate. To be clear about Harry the Heir-- in the scenario I propose he is not the Stark heir, his Waynwood cousins as descendants of the elder son are. He's merely kin to the Starks and somewhere down the line of claimants (fourth to be exact in my scenario)

[Ludd]

Lady Anya Waynwood could be the first daughter of the Stark sister - ie Rickard's cousin. We can assume that if Eddard is 34 or so (at the beginning, his father (Rickard) would have been 60 or so. His cousins might be expected to range between 50-70. Anya Waynwood may well be Sansa's third cousin.

[Stoned Dragon]

You know, when you combine the GNC and it's own extension in the Riverlands with the goings-on in the Vale, there's perhaps a loosely connected conspiracy to utilize the numerous Stark children to form a rather impressive power block. With Rickon, and by extension Jon, securing the North and combining that with Cat's children's claim to Riverrun if something were to happen to Edmure, along with Sansa's probable marriage to Harry the Heir, we could be starting to see the foundation for a truly independent northern half of Westeros.

And the irony is neither the GNC nor the likely politicking of Bronze Yohn and the other Vale Lords are even knowingly remotely connected.

ETA: I see Jon and Waymar as being a very functional Lord Commander-First Ranger duo with one or the other occupying each role. What could have been...

That's really interesting -- everybody is focusing on Sansa being the key to Winterfell, but she's also the key to the Riverlands, especially since Edmure is marching towards Casterly Rock and the Blackfish is still loyal to the Starks. When Rickon is revealed in Winterfell, Littlefinger knows that he won't stand a chance forming an alliance with either the Northern lords (assuming GNC wins) or Stannis. Moreover, as soon as Sansa is revealed the Lannisters (if they still hold power) are going to strip him of his titles and holdings, and then he'd have authority at all to back him up against the Lords Declarant.

But if Harry the Heir invades Riverrun to win it from the Lannisters/Freys, he'd also be helping Littlefinger, who doesn't actually rule there or have sufficient forces loyal enough to defy the Lannisters. Harry winning Riverrun for Sansa would win the Riverlands for LF at the same time. Once that's done, he could either pivot back to the North (Sansa as Regent for Rickon, or something similar), or he could throw in his lot with Aegon and make a deal -- he'd deliver two kingdoms to his cause (Vale + Riverlands) but he gets to keep his title as Lord Paramount -- which would give him at least some power over Riverrun and, by extension, Sansa.

Or, at least, that could happen. The real wildcard is Sansa -- is there anything Littlefinger can do to keep Sansa from revealing herself or running away as soon as she hears that Rickon is alive and/or the North has rebelled for the Starks.

[Alia of the knife]

As always an amazing thread Lady Gywn, and I have poured over each word eagerly getting caught up on alliances and kinships.

A question though on the matter of the Tyrells.

In an age of promises, (even marriage by proxy), could the Tyrells make a claim to Sansa based upon promises made but never fulfilled?

It would put Willas back into the game if he claims that their betrothal, or troth plighting was still valid, putting her marriage to Tyrion in question, therefore making her unavailable for others as well, ( a little like Edward VI and Elizabeth Woodeville, but reversed).

What if he won't release her from promises made to him, despite the reasons, keeping the Tyrells on all sides of the game?

AND.......

Congratulations on the Red Sox victory. The Orioles haven't been the same since Ripken retired. :bawl:

[juanml82]

That's really interesting -- everybody is focusing on Sansa being the key to Winterfell, but she's also the key to the Riverlands, especially since Edmure is marching towards Casterly Rock and the Blackfish is still loyal to the Starks. When Rickon is revealed in Winterfell, Littlefinger knows that he won't stand a chance forming an alliance with either the Northern lords (assuming GNC wins) or Stannis. Moreover, as soon as Sansa is revealed the Lannisters (if they still hold power) are going to strip him of his titles and holdings, and then he'd have authority at all to back him up against the Lords Declarant.

But if Harry the Heir invades Riverrun to win it from the Lannisters/Freys, he'd also be helping Littlefinger, who doesn't actually rule there or have sufficient forces loyal enough to defy the Lannisters. Harry winning Riverrun for Sansa would win the Riverlands for LF at the same time. Once that's done, he could either pivot back to the North (Sansa as Regent for Rickon, or something similar), or he could throw in his lot with Aegon and make a deal -- he'd deliver two kingdoms to his cause (Vale + Riverlands) but he gets to keep his title as Lord Paramount -- which would give him at least some power over Riverrun and, by extension, Sansa.

Or, at least, that could happen. The real wildcard is Sansa -- is there anything Littlefinger can do to keep Sansa from revealing herself or running away as soon as she hears that Rickon is alive and/or the North has rebelled for the Starks.

Sansa knows how much Littlefinger is worth. As long as he can keep her from learning more of the truth as she does, Littlefinger would still have a chance. However, should Sansa meet with Sandor and be told who delivered the Gold Cloaks to the Lannisters, or ever meet Jeyne Poole again, Littlefinger will need additional ways to control her, or he'll find himself drinking a drop of Strangler. I don't think he'll be betting the Knights of the Vale would be following his plans only because Sansa is whispering into Harry's ear or because his plan is what Bronze Yohn wants, at least superficially.

However, such an scenario of Sansa turning against LF is likely to happen after so many things have happened that it would be entirely unpredictable.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

As always an amazing thread Lady Gywn, and I have poured over each word eagerly getting caught up on alliances and kinships.

A question though on the matter of the Tyrells.

In an age of promises, (even marriage by proxy), could the Tyrells make a claim to Sansa based upon promises made but never fulfilled?

It would put Willas back into the game if he claims that their betrothal, or troth plighting was still valid, putting her marriage to Tyrion in question, therefore making her unavailable for others as well, ( a little like Edward VI and Elizabeth Woodeville, but reversed).

What if he won't release her from promises made to him, despite the reasons, keeping the Tyrells on all sides of the game?

AND.......

Congratulations on the Red Sox victory. The Orioles haven't been the same since Ripken retired. :bawl:

Thanks! (for the compliment and the congratulations :)) It's been a great week! I think the O's had a decent year in their rebuilding cycle-- they were in the hunt up to the end which is a step in the right direction. (Not that we intend to yield the East to anyone just yet, but I'd love to see the Orioles jump ahead of the "evil empire" next year ;))

An interesting thought about the Tyrells. I don't think they could make the claim validly, since their agreement was with Sansa herself rather than her guardian. But they could make an attempt, or LF could use it as one of several reasons to invalidate the Lannister marriage (eta- since that would act against his HtH plans, I don't think he would, just that it could be a significant detail he's aware of) Imo, it would come down to whether the person acting as Sansa's guardian (Joffrey as King) did so legally. If Joff is proved to be an invalid king (pending Cersei's trial, who knows?) then all of the IT's acts during his reign could be called into question, including Sansa's marriage to his uncle. At that point the Tyrells really could try to complicate matters.

The reason I brought up Sansa's connections to all those Great Houses is to illustrate what a prize LF may have (or think he has) in her. She gives him so many options, which is exactly how I think he operates-- back up plans to his fall back plans etc.

I've been wondering about his connection to the Corbrays, who may be the sons of the second Royce daughter. That line of thought makes me think something unsavory could be afoot there. The Baelishes have a longstanding connection to House Corbray. Their relative proximity to the Stark claim makes me nervous! :uhoh:

[Alia of the knife]

Thanks! (for the compliment and the congratulations :)) It's been a great week! I think the O's had a decent year in their rebuilding cycle-- they were in the hunt up to the end which is a step in the right direction. (Not that we intend to yield the East to anyone just yet, but I'd love to see the Orioles jump ahead of the "evil empire" next year ;))

An interesting thought about the Tyrells. I don't think they could make the claim validly, since their agreement was with Sansa herself rather than her guardian. But they could make an attempt, or LF could use it as one of several reasons to invalidate the Lannister marriage (eta- since that would act against his HtH plans, I don't think he would, just that it could be a significant detail he's aware of) Imo, it would come down to whether the person acting as Sansa's guardian (Joffrey as King) did so legally. If Joff is proved to be an invalid king (pending Cersei's trial, who knows?) then all of the IT's acts during his reign could be called into question, including Sansa's marriage to his uncle. At that point the Tyrells really could try to complicate matters.

The reason I brought up Sansa's connections to all those Great Houses is to illustrate what a prize LF may have (or think he has) in her. She gives him so many options, which is exactly how I think he operates-- back up plans to his fall back plans etc.

I've been wondering about his connection to the Corbrays, who may be the sons of the second Royce daughter. That line of thought makes me think something unsavory could be afoot there. The Baelishes have a longstanding connection to House Corbray. Their relative proximity to the Stark claim makes me nervous! :uhoh:

I know, I shouldn't sound like a "fowl" weather friend, but I do agree on at least it's not them. :smug: I hope you get a chance to attend the parade. :)

I can't tell you how much I appreciate the effort you put into the reference guide, and I hope you don't mind that added it to my favorites. Its nice to have those quick references to jog the memory.

But, I like how you've laid it out so neatly because whether there are flaws, or not, from a geo-political perspective, it certainly makes Sansa, (and Arya as well), two of the most important females in the kingdom. Who knew that the Starks were so intricately connected beyond their northern domain? Perhaps there was a little bit of truth in Aerys paranoia. :dunno:

We've played with various theories on Arya, but I think currtently, the Theon sample chapter of WoW has Stannis sending Ser Justin Massey to also look for Arya, and he's a man desperately seeking a wife with connections, so these girls may not have any peace as others seek power through them which is consistent with Martins historical influences.

The similarities between the ambitious Lannisters and Tyrells are not an accident I think.

You have Lan the Clever who tricked the Casterly King out of his kingdom, and the you have the Tyrells who turned on their lords to be raised from gardeners to high positions, so both families "upjumped" to some degree.

Margaery is a bane to Cersei the way Tywin hoped Cersei would be to sickly Elia, and though I think Cersei herself will still prevail over Margaery, not all the Tyrells will be out of the game, especially if Joffreys reign is invalidated on the part of Cersei's infidelity.

Robb also disowned Sansa after her marriage to Tyrion, Cat is dead, so now maybe it will be Jon who will have to reinstate Sansas claim?

And I completely agree on the issue of the connections between Baelish/Corbray, and the proximity of the claim to Winterfell.

Not a good thing.

We know that Petyr has to be eaten up with hatred for the Starks given that we recently found out that Brandon did indeed try to kill him. It is interesting that Varys doesn't seem to hold animosity towards the Starks or Ned, just that Ned was an obstacle to Varys.

And if Varys is looking for Sansa, he must have his own plans for her too.

[GinesthoiOfIce]

This is a really interesting theory and once again a testimony to how intricate GRRM's work is.

As Sansa's claim(s) have been discussed in the previous posts, I would argue that it is possible that Sansa is not completely disinherited by Robb's will : I really doubt that Catelyn would let her daughter be completely wiped out of the line of succession, instead would have pleaded for a clause like this " Should the Lady Sansa of House Stark, now married to Tyrion of House Lannister, find herself widowed and with no offspring from the afore mentionned union, her rights to Winterfell and the North shall be restored to her. IF the preceding clause should not apply, Jon Snow should become heir to the North".

This settlement would offer ease of conscience to Robb for disinheriting his sister because of a marriage he knew she didn't wish for, and despite offering more hope to Catelyn that Sansa should inherit, make her angry knowing that Sansa would hardly be able to escape the clutches of the Lannisters.

I'm also wondering if it would actually be possible that Sweetrobin might name Alayne his heir ? Like a Edward VI/Jane Grey case, with hopefully a better end for Alayne than Jane Grey's.

[BriBri]

This is a really interesting theory and once again a testimony to how intricate GRRM's work is.

As Sansa's claim(s) have been discussed in the previous posts, I would argue that it is possible that Sansa is not completely disinherited by Robb's will : I really doubt that Catelyn would let her daughter be completely wiped out of the line of succession, instead would have pleaded for a clause like this " Should the Lady Sansa of House Stark, now married to Tyrion of House Lannister, find herself widowed and with no offspring from the afore mentionned union, her rights to Winterfell and the North shall be restored to her. IF the preceding clause should not apply, Jon Snow should become heir to the North".

This settlement would offer ease of conscience to Robb for disinheriting his sister because of a marriage he knew she didn't wish for, and despite offering more hope to Catelyn that Sansa should inherit, make her angry knowing that Sansa would hardly be able to escape the clutches of the Lannisters.

I'm also wondering if it would actually be possible that Sweetrobin might name Alayne his heir ? Like a Edward VI/Jane Grey case, with hopefully a better end for Alayne than Jane Grey's.

Alayne? No. Sansa? it could be a possibility. but Sansa is a woman, actually a child, she "needs" a husband(HtH) and/or a guardian(Littlefinger).

[Lord Martin]

When a major house, like the Starks becomes extinct or nearly extinct, I have to imagine the maesters and lords go running to sort out who has the best claims and that is sort of what is being done here.

I highly doubt LF would tell Lady Waynwood about Sansa Stark.... but "Arya" Stark is another matter. She is really the one standing in the way of the Waynwood claim to Winterfell, if there is one. And that is information LF could really use to his benefit.

Moving backwards from Robb the line of succession is:

Bran (presumed dead);

Rickon (ditto),

Sansa (missing/suspected of regicide) and

Arya (married to Ramsay Bolton).

Then it goes to any of Eddard's siblings and their children. Lyana is dead, Benjen missing and a sworn brother of the NW. Jon Snow raises an interesting issue but again, sworn to the NW.

So then we go next to Edwyle's generation and the Waynwood, Corbrays and Templetons bit. I share Lady G's concerns that Lyn Corbray could be next in line for Winterfell, so lets hope its the Waynwoods. The chronology is a tad messed up though.

In House Waynwood, there is Royce/Stark daughter no. 1 who is of a generation with Lord Rickard. If Lady G's definition of "lordling" is correct then daughter 1 married an older brother of Elys Waywood, the grandfather of Harry the Heir.

Daughter 1 and Lord Waynwood then had children including Lady Anya... that makes Lady Anya of Ned's generation.... I'm not sure how the math would work to make Lady Anya "elderly" however. My understanding is that Edwyle's sister was a younger sister suggesting that her children would be younger than Edwyle's and therefore her grandchild (Anya) would be younger than Edwyle's grandchildren (Eddard). There is time for a correction, but since its only a two generation span, Edwyle and his sister have to be close in age and Daughter 1 must have procreated before Rickard did to result in the "elderly" Anya Waynwood.... or Lord Edwyle had Rickard when he was very old.

We also know Lady Anya has three sons: Morton, Donnell and Wallace. Morton is the oldest and was one of Lysa's suitors at Tyrion's trial. If the line of succession runs through Edwyle's sister, Daughter 1 and her offspring, the line seems to end with Morton, Donnell and Wallace Waynwood.

Now if we work backwards, we know Donnell is 20 and has a younger brother, likely about 18. So how old could Lady Anya really be? If she has children as young as 18, could she be much past 55? A child at 37 is certainly possible but does not seem highly likely. Is someone "elderly" at 50? Perhaps by ASOIAF standards.

All that aside, Lady Waynwood has three sons, she needs to find good results for all of them. Morton will inherit the House, Donnell is Knight of the Gate and Wallace is in line for nothing. A fine result but nothing spectacular. But LF can offer Winterfell to Morton simply by outing the fake Arya Stark." I suspect his conversation with Lady Waynwood went something like this...

LF: So my lady, have you heard the news of Winterfell? Roose Bolton's bastard has been legitimized and married to Eddard Stark's youngest daughter.

LW: So I had heard, I heard the she-wolf pup was missing since the Lannister's snipped off Lord Eddard's head. Would that she stayed missing....

LF: Why is that my lady... what is Arya Stark to Anya Waynwood?

LW: The difference is less than an "r" and an "n." House Waynwood has what was until recently, a distant claim to Winterfell. My dear mother, Aryanya Waynwood was born Aryanya Royce, the daughter of Martyn Royce and Lyness Stark, sister of Edwyle Stark who was grand father to Lord Eddard... with the young wolf and his brothers dead and both Stark daughter's missing, I had hopes my son Morton could press our claim. The Vale was not touched by the war and house Waynwood and Royce have enough men to take Winterfell by force if needs be, but with a daughter of Eddard Stark in the way, we cannot press that claim...

LF (who knows all this already): I see, well what if I were to tell you that Bolton's bride is no true wolf, but merely a stewart's whelp plucked by Lord Tywin from one of my brothels to secure Lord Bolton's allegiance and give him a claim false to Winterfell.

LW: You have proof of this?

LF: My dear, she worked in my brothel, I produced her at the King's command, I made "Arya Stark" and I can unmake her....for a friend... a loyal friend?

LW: Oh Petyr.....

The truth of Arya Stark was the "dowery" LF gave to Lady Waynwood. If Arya is fake, then there are none of Ned's children left to make a claim. My guess is that LF promised to raise the Vale Lords on behalf of the Waynwoods in asserting their claim to Winterfell. This could be before or after Sweet Robin's death. Then during the war, LF will unveil Sansa Stark. The Northern Lords will abandon Bolton to support Sansa's claim to WF, Harry will want WF for his wife as well and Harry's Lords will have no choice but to follow him. LF will likely end up ruling one area or the other on behalf of Harry and Sansa until their own children are old enough.

[Petyr Patter]

I like the way you think, Lord Martin.

However, I do see a flaw. Baelish rules the Riverlands by royal decree, where he is Lord Paramount in truth. What does ruling the North as a castellan gain him in terms of social, political, or monetary advantage?

[juanml82]

When a major house, like the Starks becomes extinct or nearly extinct, I have to imagine the maesters and lords go running to sort out who has the best claims and that is sort of what is being done here.

 

I highly doubt LF would tell Lady Waynwood about Sansa Stark.... but "Arya" Stark is another matter.  She is really the one standing in the way of the Waynwood claim to Winterfell, if there is one.  And that is information LF could really use to his benefit.

 

Moving backwards from Robb the line of succession is:  

Bran (presumed dead);

Rickon (ditto),

Sansa (missing/suspected of regicide) and

Arya (married to Ramsay Bolton).  

 

Then it goes to any of Eddard's siblings and their children.  Lyana is dead, Benjen missing and a sworn brother of the NW.  Jon Snow raises an interesting issue but again, sworn to the NW.

 

So then we go next to Edwyle's generation and the Waynwood, Corbrays and Templetons bit.  I share Lady G's concerns that Lyn Corbray could be next in line for Winterfell, so lets hope its the Waynwoods.  The chronology is a tad messed up though.

 

In House Waynwood, there is Royce/Stark daughter no. 1 who is of a generation with Lord Rickard.  If Lady G's definition of "lordling" is correct then daughter 1 married an older brother of Elys Waywood, the grandfather of Harry the Heir.

 

Daughter 1 and Lord Waynwood then had children including Lady Anya... that makes Lady Anya of Ned's generation.... I'm not sure how the math would work to make Lady Anya "elderly" however.  My understanding is that Edwyle's sister was a younger sister suggesting that her children would be younger than Edwyle's and therefore her grandchild (Anya) would be younger than Edwyle's grandchildren (Eddard).  There is time for a correction, but since its only a two generation span, Edwyle and his sister have to be close in age and Daughter 1 must have procreated before Rickard did to result in the "elderly" Anya Waynwood.... or Lord Edwyle had Rickard when he was very old.

 

We also know Lady Anya has three sons: Morton, Donnell and Wallace.  Morton is the oldest and was one of Lysa's suitors at Tyrion's trial.  If the line of succession runs through Edwyle's sister, Daughter 1 and her offspring, the line seems to end with Morton, Donnell and Wallace Waynwood.

 

Now if we work backwards, we know Donnell is 20 and has a younger brother, likely about 18.  So how old could Lady Anya really be?  If she has children as young as 18, could she be much past 55?  A child at 37 is certainly possible but does not seem highly likely.  Is someone "elderly" at 50?  Perhaps by ASOIAF standards.

 

All that aside, Lady Waynwood has three sons, she needs to find good results for all of them.  Morton will inherit the House, Donnell is Knight of the Gate and Wallace is in line for nothing.  A fine result but nothing spectacular.  But LF can offer Winterfell to Morton simply by outing the fake Arya Stark."  I suspect his conversation with Lady Waynwood went something like this...

 

LF:  So my lady, have you heard the news of Winterfell?  Roose Bolton's bastard has been legitimized and married to Eddard Stark's youngest daughter.

 

LW:  So I had heard, I heard the she-wolf pup was missing since the Lannister's snipped off Lord Eddard's head.  Would that she stayed missing....

 

LF:  Why is that my lady... what is Arya Stark to Anya Waynwood?

 

LW:  The difference is less than an "r" and an "n."  House Waynwood has what was until recently, a distant claim to Winterfell.  My dear mother, Aryanya Waynwood was born Aryanya Royce, the daughter of Martyn Royce and Lyness Stark, sister of Edwyle Stark who was grand father to Lord Eddard... with the young wolf and his brothers dead and both Stark daughter's missing, I had hopes my son Morton could press our claim.  The Vale was not touched by the war and house Waynwood and Royce have enough men to take Winterfell by force if needs be, but with a daughter of Eddard Stark in the way, we cannot press that claim...

 

LF (who knows all this already):  I see, well what if I were to tell you that Bolton's bride is no true wolf, but merely a stewart's whelp plucked by Lord Tywin from one of my brothels to secure Lord Bolton's allegiance and give him a claim false to Winterfell.

 

LW:  You have proof of this?  

 

LF:  My dear, she worked in my brothel, I produced her at the King's command, I made "Arya Stark" and I can unmake her....for a friend... a loyal friend?

 

LW:  Oh Petyr.....

 

 

The truth of Arya Stark was the "dowery" LF gave to Lady Waynwood.  If Arya is fake, then there are none of Ned's children left to make a claim. My guess is that LF promised to raise the Vale Lords on behalf of the Waynwoods in asserting their claim to Winterfell.  This could be before or after Sweet Robin's death.  Then during the war, LF will unveil Sansa Stark.  The Northern Lords will abandon Bolton to support Sansa's claim to WF, Harry will want WF for his wife as well and Harry's Lords will have no choice but to follow him.  LF will likely end up ruling one area or the other on behalf of Harry and Sansa until their own children are old enough.    

He'll be double crossing Lady Waynwood then. Morton won't be able to press a claim