Royces, Starks and Waynwoods-- Corbrays and Templetons too

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Let me throw out another question, How does knowing Sansa's identity actually benefit the Royces or Waynwoods?

It seems to me any conspiracy going on right now is not trying to revolt from the Iron Throne or restore the Starks to Winterfell, but rather just get Littlefinger out of the Vale, and see if Robert Arryn has any chance to be a true Lord Paramount. Where does Sansa or Alayne fit into this? Especially a Sansa they have no reason to think is anything but Littlefinger's pawn at this time. I get that the Starks have some good will left over from Eddard's time as a ward and the Lannisters (and Petyr by extension) have a "debt of ill will" left over from supposedly murdering Jon, executing Eddard, and just perhaps getting Robert killed.

Yet, I still think any Vale lord who got their hands on Sansa Stark, would either sell her to the Lannisters, or marry her for her claim to Winterfell.

Just some thoughts.

Well we don't know yet what the advantage would be or what they would do with this knowledge. We simply don't know enough about the Royces (or any Vale noble family, really) to know what they might aspire to do, in general. And ADWD was frustratingly silent on Happenings In The Vale (no Sansa chapters! For the first time ever, a SOIAF book with no Sansa chapters!) But they know something that Littlefinger does not know they know, and is counting on them not knowing what they actually do know. (god that sentence is terrible :D). This is the advantageous position in Littlefinger's Great Game. Know what a man wants and you know what moves he's going to make. They don't quite know what Littlefinger wants, but they know what he has, and that's enough to at least guess what he wants with some degree of accuracy.

My best guess is the Royces or whoever could come up with their own marriage plan and beat LF to the punch, much like when Sansa was fast-track married to Tyrion before the Tyrells could get her hitched to Willas. Harry The Heir can't marry Sansa if me marries someone else first (not that I know who this hypothetical Lady Hardyng would be). But who really knows.

But even just selling her to the Lannisters or marrying her for her claim to Winterfell would foil whatever Littlefinger's plans for her are. Marrying her is still legally complicated of course, at least until a certain dwarf is reported dead (a report that will almost certainly come and will almost certainly be false, so that Littlefinger can do whatever it is he's going to do only to have it be undone when Tyrion pops back up :D)

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

By the way this has gotta be the longest thread in the history of westeros.org ever dedicated (at least partially) to The Royces, right? :D

I mean, it's the only one I've ever even seen.

[Ser Greg of House House]

By the way this has gotta be the longest thread in the history of westeros.org ever dedicated (at least partially) to The Royces, right? :D

I mean, it's the only one I've ever even seen.

I've created at least one thread dedicated to the Royces... I believe they're very cool being tourney knights with northern runes, liking the Starks and all. I've been accused of being a northern-supremacist, which is absurd since my favorite House are the Martells.

I just think it's cool to have a House who might just bend towards a northern allegiance when we have Sansa in the Vale...

It's been said that they consider the Starks as (distant) kin. Their motto is "We remember". I believe they will be the ones to free Sansa.

ps. The runes armor is badass and I've been playing Chivalry (and other steam multiplayer games) as Bronze Yohn Royce for some time now (kind of sucks since every now and then someone asks if Yohn is the guy who died at the first prologue...)

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

I've created at least one thread dedicated to the Royces... I believe they're very cool being tourney knights with northern runes, liking the Starks and all. I've been accused of being a northern-supremacist, which is absurd since my favorite House are the Martells.

I just think it's cool to have a House who might just bend towards a northern allegiance when we have Sansa in the Vale...

It's been said that they consider the Starks as (distant) kin. Their motto is "We remember". I believe they will be the ones to free Sansa.

ps. The runes armor is badass and I've been playing Chivalry (and other steam multiplayer games) as Bronze Yohn Royce for some time now (kind of sucks since every now and then someone asks if Yohn is the guy who died at the first prologue...)

I figure they're probably cool (and on the Basically Good Guys side of things) because they're (very) distant Stark cousins, have first men blood, and they're the other family that actually has a no-strings-attached honest to goodness VOLUNTEER for The Night's Watch. Granted, Waymar didn't last long and he was a bit arrogant, but his heart was in the right place. :)

[Tquinn BC]

Really, sorry but all of this is going right over my head...

[Ser Greg of House House]

I figure they're probably cool (and on the Basically Good Guys side of things) because they're (very) distant Stark cousins, have first men blood, and they're the other family that actually has a no-strings-attached honest to goodness VOLUNTEER for The Night's Watch. Granted, Waymar didn't last long and he was a bit arrogant, but his heart was in the right place. :)

Yeah! I didn't even like Waymar at first, but since then people convinced me that he was a badass too. 'Dance with me' and all... It's just that in the very beginning we don't realize how much of a good deed it is for a southern noble to volunteer to the Wall and how he was probably not just a dick but actually the best man available to his position, even if he was an arrogant somehow... To be fair, in that very beginning we don't even realize how extraordinary fighting an Other is. Well, Jon was kind of arrogant too at the beginning. Waymar was unlucky, if he had stayed in the Watch he could've been great.

But it's not only that... We know Martin doesn't do things randomly. I mean... We have more background on the Royces than we have on the famous Daynes... or than we had on the Manderlys... I believe the Royces will play their part soo enough.

Giving the biggest threat to Littlefinger in the Vale a northern heritage, the motto 'We Remember' and making them kin to the Starks when Sansa is right there sounds like a big clue.

I believe the role of the Royces and their possible alliance with the North/Starks is very underestimated in the theorjes about how things will develop in the Vale.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Yeah Jon totally would have benefitted from having Waymar around, I think. He'd have made his way into Jon's inner circle of true bros like Sam and Edd.

Actually, he and Jon probably would've been the heated rivals [Royce initially replacing Thorne as Jon's main antagonist in The Watch?] who eventually end up having super respect for each other and thus become staunch allies late in the story. Like, in Jon's current predicament, he'd probably be the guy fighting his way to Jon, punching Bowen Marsh in the face, and dragging Jon to safety and keeping him from actually dying.

But as it is Jon's gonna have to just actually come back from the dead.

[Carter209]

You know, when you combine the GNC and it's own extension in the Riverlands with the goings-on in the Vale, there's perhaps a loosely connected conspiracy to utilize the numerous Stark children to form a rather impressive power block. With Rickon, and by extension Jon, securing the North and combining that with Cat's children's claim to Riverrun if something were to happen to Edmure, along with Sansa's probable marriage to Harry the Heir, we could be starting to see the foundation for a truly independent northern half of Westeros.

And the irony is neither the GNC nor the likely politicking of Bronze Yohn and the other Vale Lords are even knowingly remotely connected.

ETA: I see Jon and Waymar as being a very functional Lord Commander-First Ranger duo with one or the other occupying each role. What could have been...

[Arya kiddin']

I also thought Royces may have realized who Alayne actually is. She remembers how Bronze Yohn visited Winterfell, and that he may recognize her. All this is not put up there to imply nothing. And Myranda mentioning Jon Snow, rather making Sansa blurt out Jon Snow, that did it. I always held it up as my crackpot, glad to see others believe in it too. :)

[Lord Martin]

Wow, the possible implications are nearly endless and I agree with the earlier poster who noted that GRRM gives himself lots of options here.

Here's a question, what happens when one person is heir to 2 of the 7 kingdoms? If Sansa is really the rightful lady of Winterfell as many suppose and she and Harry had a son, does the son become Lord of the Eyrie, Lord of Winterfell or both? In any event, that would be a powerful lordling. Thats the kind of kid the Lord of Harrenhal takes as a ward and suddenly he controls 3 of the 7 kingdoms.

I don't think LF would give away Sansa's identity that easily. I think the significant Waynwood debt explains the agreement to let Harry marry Alayne. There is an amount of gold worth more than Lord Nestor's wroth. Especially if Lady Waynwood expects LF to outlast Bronze Yohn.

I assume that the Vale lords with any possible claim to Winterfell aren't really considering their chances at Winterfell just yet. "Arya" is still alive and just married the son of the new warden in the north. So that's another obstacle to their inheriting.

But this was a cool catch and neat look at whats going on in the Vale.

[Petyr Patter]

Here's a question, what happens when one person is heir to 2 of the 7 kingdoms? If Sansa is really the rightful lady of Winterfell as many suppose and she and Harry had a son, does the son become Lord of the Eyrie, Lord of Winterfell or both? In any event, that would be a powerful lordling. Thats the kind of kid the Lord of Harrenhal takes as a ward and suddenly he controls 3 of the 7 kingdoms.

There does seem to be a "One Lordship per Lord" rule in effect. Regardless, this strikes me as the sort of thing that rapidly takes care of itself once the overly blessed lord in question has more than one son. He's not going to give both kingdoms to one son and leave the other working as a mercenary in Essos, now is he?

[Lord Martin]

There does seem to be a "One Lordship per Lord" rule in effect. Regardless, this strikes me as the sort of thing that rapidly takes care of itself once the overly blessed lord in question has more than one son. He's not going to give both kingdoms to one son and leave the other working as a mercenary in Essos, now is he?

Oh he might, depends on the father. What would Tywin do?

[Petyr Patter]

Oh he might, depends on the father. What would Tywin do?

Tywin seemed like he was finding lordships not only for his children, but for his nephews as well. Tyrek was wed off to the baby heir of some estate whose name I forget. Lancel was given the Darry estate. He probably ordered the Red Wedding in part to insure Tyrion could claim Winterfell through Sansa, and of course he kept hope alive that Jaime would inherit Casterly Rock.

[Colonel Green]

Tywin seemed like he was finding lordships not only for his children, but for his nephews as well. Tyrek was wed off to the baby heir of some estate whose name I forget. Lancel was given the Darry estate. He probably ordered the Red Wedding in part to insure Tyrion could claim Winterfell through Sansa, and of course he kept hope alive that Jaime would inherit Casterly Rock.

Well, yeah, but that's creating cadet branches through marriage -- a person can only marry once at a time, and father children that are heir to a limited number of claims. The chance to combine lordships within a single line is tremendous -- if he had the chance to merge the "main" Lannister line with the "main" line of another paramount house, generally one would try for it.

Yet, I still think any Vale lord who got their hands on Sansa Stark, would either sell her to the Lannisters, or marry her for her claim to Winterfell.

The Vale lords (the LD, anyway) hate the Lannister, and love the Starks. They'd never hand Sansa over to the Lannisters. Whether they'd try to marry her is an open question.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

A lot of great contribution while I took the evening off to watch the World Series! :)

Carter 209, personally I don't think Harry has a clue. He strikes me as very Robert Baratheon-like. Myranda though is very sharp and I don't doubt her not-so-subtle mention of Jon Snow was purposeful.

I think it's important to remember the separation of the Royce branches. Nestor clearly has something of an inferiority complex, which LF uses to his advantage in the matters of Marillion and the Lords Declarant. While I think Bronze Yohn may suspect Alayne as well, I'm not sure we have proof of collusion (yet!) Lady Anya most likely knows, though whether it's because LF told her or because of a larger conspiracy is a valid question. Because I suspect that Lady Anya (or one of her sons) is THE Stark heir in the Vale, there are a number of possibilities around her involvement, which run the gamut from altruistic to nefarious. That's one thing I hoped to uncover with this thread.

Petyr Patter, I see the lines in the Vale being drawn much as they were during RR. It's no accident that the Lords Declarant include the lords who were most vocal in their desire to support Robb Stark. Bronze Yohn has a history of friendship with Ned, and there are the Waynwood and Templeton kinships to consider. Vague as Catelyn may have been to Robb, Ned grew up in the Vale and we can be certain that he knew exactly which families there were kin to him. A shared great grandparent is not that distant a relationship after all. (I happen to know many of my own second cousins.Those I don't know, I could certainly identify by name.) Dany the Mad Queen made an great point about Waymar not being as big a jerk as you think upon re-reading ("Dance with me", even on first read, struck me as total badass) Also I find the FM connection tres interesting. The Redforts, who are also connected to the North through their fosterage of Domeric Bolton, are also FM and Lord Horton is a Lord Declarant.

On the other side, we know that the Graftons and the Corbrays both initially fought for the Targaryens during RR. Both families now find themselves aligned with LF. As I alluded to upthread, I have a strong suspicion that LF means to throw in with Dany. He hopes (or had hoped) to coerce most of the other Lords to his side with threats, friendship or money. I think he'll be adjusting early in TWoW since he makes it clear at the end of Feast that the Queens are outpacing his plans. As far as what his plans are regarding Sansa, he alone in the Vale knows that "Arya" Bolton is fake. I don't think he knows what the other Lords are up to, but I'm quite sure he knows the genealogy that surrounds all of this (hint: tapestries!)

We can't forget that any Vale conspiracy involving the Lords Declarant most likely predates LF's marriage to Lysa and Sansa's arrival. While LF has been laying his own groundwork for years, the LD spent their time in AGoT through ASoS courting Lysa and lobbying her to join the Stark cause. The question that really needs to be answered is what was their goal in joining the Starks in the first place?

Carter 209 raises an excellent point about the GNC-Riverlands-Vale conspiracies. One reason I'm looking at the Vale is because I've spent a lot of time looking at the other two and I began to suspect there was something at work with the Vale Lords as well. In the Vale it's a bit more complicated because they have a real live Stark and there seem to be two distinct conspiracies operating around her. However, I think that in TWoW we will begin to see convergence of the threads. There are strong hints of that regarding the Riverlands, but definitely several hints and bits of circumstantial evidence in the Vale.

As far as having multiple claims to Paramount positions, I agree that there seems to be a one Lord, one seat rule in effect. But I've long found it striking that Sansa is in the position to claim four of the Paramount Lordships (assuming, as most do, that her brothers are dead): Winterfell is hers by birth, Casterley Rock by marriage if Tyrion was reinstated in the succession either posthumously or before his death (see how I outlined upthread the withering of House Lannister and their supporters), the Vale by her proposed second marriage and the Riverlands as the heir presumptive to her Uncle Edmure (if he was restored.) She was even briefly and surreptitiously engaged to the heir to the Reach. Whether this is all just commentary on the uncertainty of Lordships or foreshadowing of a larger role for Sansa, I can't say, but it's interesting to me to have all those connections swirling around one character and fun speculating what it means.

As S-n-SR said, we largely have to wait and see. It's amazing what you can start to piece together through careful examination though :)

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

There does seem to be a "One Lordship per Lord" rule in effect. Regardless, this strikes me as the sort of thing that rapidly takes care of itself once the overly blessed lord in question has more than one son. He's not going to give both kingdoms to one son and leave the other working as a mercenary in Essos, now is he?

Feudal tradition, at least as translated to Westeros, would seem to dictate a great lord bequeath his lesser holdings to younger brothers or other close-but-not-direct-line relatives. Tommen, for instance, is also technically Lord Of The Rock as well as King On The Iron Throne right now, and once he and his sister Myrcella were of age he would generally be expected to pass Casterly Rock to her (meaning her husband, most likely). If they both survive that long of course. :) Likewise Ned Stark's expectation, as he tells Bran, is that Bran will one day hold a castle in Robb's name. Riverrun, for example, would have gone to The Starks if Edmure died without issue: Robb is Hoster Tully's oldest grandson and all the Stark siblings fall in line behind him, with Sweetrobin bringing up the rear.

Robb would be expected to name Bran, Rickon, or Sansa or Arya('s future husband) Lord Of Riverrun.

Assuming he doesn't follow the other expected custom of rewarding some other high lord for Leal Service and/or Great Deeds [like killing the previous occupant who the Great Lord didn't particularly like or thought was a heretic or whatever]

The reason this is done is the same reason The Crownlands -- houses directly under control of The Targaryen family and/our houses sworn to them directly -- the landed aristocracy doesn't like one guy and/or one family having too many pieces of the pie because it bodes ill for consolidation of power [the reason for this paranoia is illustrated by the Absolute Monarchy phase of european history that came along after, when the Louis XIVs of the world broke the power the rest of the noble class tended to have over their "ruler" in the middle ages. Which is why I thought it was funny when they added a scene to season 1 of the Game Of Thrones show where Joffrey is complaining that "his" army is really just vassals whose banners he can call and they may or may not feel like showing up, and how it makes him weaker and he SHOULD have a full time standing professional army loyal directly to him. Real life Kings eventually came to this same conclusion.] Quite literally sharing the wealth.

Funnily enough its kinda like a boxing champion going up in weight and winning that championship while still being the holder of the lower weight division championship belt. Generally the heavier weight classes are "more prestigious/better" than the lower (culminating in Heavyweight Champion Of The World, the true superstar title to hold, or at least it was back when people cared more about boxing). What happens? The fighter relinquishes his lower weight belt and the "top contenders" usually have a run-off bout for that now vacant belt (since boxing is too brutal to allow for a proper deep bracketed playoff tournament in a short enough period of time).

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

The official reason, of course, is that due to the slow pace of land travel in this time period/level of technology, is that one man cannot truly effectively administrate law over that wide and disparate an area as Several Major Land holdings and would be effectively bequeathing command and rule over these holdings to lesser lords ANYWAY (like Ned Stark, Mace Tyrell, Jon Arryn, and Tywin Lannister being Wardens Of The North/South/East/West when the song starts).

Not that these folks REALLY gave a shit about looking after the peasant class on their lands (except so far as making sure they were alive enough to get taxes and levies out of anyway), but they liked to think they did because it proved how awesome they were. Really it was about carving up the lands and titles such that nobody got too far ahead in power/resources/prestige as a "First Among Equals". Since anyone who got that big, of course, the next logical step for them to take was to challenge for the throne directly (after all they had more land and more men and more lords directly sworn to him than the king did).

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

The official reason, of course, is that due to the slow pace of land travel in this time period/level of technology, is that one man cannot truly effectively administrate law over that wide and disparate an area as Several Major Land holdings and would be effectively bequeathing command and rule over these holdings to lesser lords ANYWAY (like Ned Stark, Mace Tyrell, Jon Arryn, and Tywin Lannister being Wardens Of The North/South/East/West when the song starts).

Not that these folks REALLY gave a shit about looking after the peasant class on their lands (except so far as making sure they were alive enough to get taxes and levies out of anyway), but they liked to think they did because it proved how awesome they were. Really it was about carving up the lands and titles such that nobody got too far ahead in power/resources/prestige as a "First Among Equals". Since anyone who got that big, of course, the next logical step for them to take was to challenge for the throne directly (after all they had more land and more men and more lords directly sworn to him than the king did).

This is what I was once convinced was LF's endgame with Sansa and her "connectedness" I take a more nuanced view now, because I think LF is essentially a lazy man who wants easy power and wealth. We all know that he who sits the throne sits pretty darn uncomfortably. LF doesn't even want to be bothered with claiming his "seat" in the Riverlands-- too messy and too much work. That's why I think he'll try to use Sansa to shore up his influence in all three regions, while throwing in with Dany (the sure winner vs. the Lannisters and Tyrells) As far as we know he knows nothing about fAegon or Jon Snow's claim to Winterfell via Robb's will. It's inevitable both of those details will surface in TWoW and cause him a big pain in the planner ;)

[Arya kiddin']

This is what I was once convinced was LF's endgame with Sansa and her "connectedness" I take a more nuanced view now, because I think LF is essentially a lazy man who wants easy power and wealth. We all know that he who sits the throne sits pretty darn uncomfortably. LF doesn't even want to be bothered with claiming his "seat" in the Riverlands-- too messy and too much work. That's why I think he'll try to use Sansa to shore up his influence in all three regions, while throwing in with Dany (the sure winner vs. the Lannisters and Tyrells) As far as we know he knows nothing about fAegon or Jon Snow's claim to Winterfell via Robb's will. It's inevitable both of those details will surface in TWoW and cause him a big pain in the planner ;)

Whoa. :shocked:

I like it.

[Gurkhal]

As far as having multiple claims to Paramount positions, I agree that there seems to be a one Lord, one seat rule in effect. But I've long found it striking that Sansa is in the position to claim four of the Paramount Lordships (assuming, as most do, that her brothers are dead): Winterfell is hers by birth, Casterley Rock by marriage if Tyrion was reinstated in the succession either posthumously or before his death (see how I outlined upthread the withering of House Lannister and their supporters), the Vale by her proposed second marriage and the Riverlands as the heir presumptive to her Uncle Edmure (if he was restored.) She was even briefly and surreptitiously engaged to the heir to the Reach. Whether this is all just commentary on the uncertainty of Lordships or foreshadowing of a larger role for Sansa, I can't say, but it's interesting to me to have all those connections swirling around one character and fun speculating what it means.

Are you sure that this is correct? Because I don't see how Sansa ever had a claim on the Rock, only that her husband did. By this view Cersei would have a claim to the Iron Throne and Catelyn on Winterfell since they are married to the holders of each of these titles. As far as I understood succession it only goes with biological kinship, marrying into a family isn't enough to press a claim.