Aegon: Real or Fake?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

It was exactly my point. It's moot. BR has First Men blood and so did Elia.

And if I missed in ASoS where Rhaenys's skin color was described, I'd appreciate the reference.

Tyrion V, chapter 38. Tyrion lists the types of Dornishmen as described by Daeron II, followed by a complete description of Oberyn Martell "a salty Dornishman for certain"

Bloodraven (who came from a FM family that worships the Old Gods and has a famous weirwood tree in their ancestral home) has nothing to do with Elia, how does his ancestry prove hers? As for physical descriptions, the discussion was about the Martell family in general being "salty" rather than the "stony" who are identified in the text as the FM descendants in Dorne.

[WeaselPie]

Tyrion V, chapter 38. Tyrion lists the types of Dornishmen as described by Daeron II, followed by a complete description of Oberyn Martell "a salty Dornishman for certain"

Bloodraven (who came from a FM family that worships the Old Gods and has a famous weirwood tree in their ancestral home) has nothing to do with Elia, how does his ancestry prove hers? As for physical descriptions, the discussion was about the Martell family in general being "salty" rather than the "stony" who are identified in the text as the FM descendants in Dorne.

I only brought up BR because of yolkboy's comments but my point fell short.

And the descriptions of stony vs salty have nothing to do with the skin tones of the children of Elia and Rhaegar, nor does that have anything to do with the Martells having First Men blood.

Thanks for the reference, going to re read it now.

[grand old duke of stark]

<SNIP >

I do agree with you that in the end it doesn't really matter if Aegon is real or not. He and Connington both believe him to be Aegon son of Rhaegar and that is all that matters. I would however prefer it if he's real so whenever someone says he can't be I argue against it because that's simply not the case.

Several people have said this and I disagree. Let's assume for argument that fAegon really is false (which I do believe). If he and his backers are going to win the IT, they need the help and cooperation of prominent Westerosi houses, especially the Martells. So if fAegon, JonCon, and the GC do attract allies that attraction will be based on Aegon's claim as Rhaegar's son. Blackfyre, obscure Targ, etc. probably would never have won allies the way the name Aegon might. So if it becomes known that fAegon is either questionable or definitely not Aegon, how would Doran, Mace, Randall Tarly, the Hightowers, etc feel if they've been fooled? It's a house of cards that will collapse the moment fAegon's authenticity looks like a con job. Clever as Varys is, I bet that when Dany arrives in Westeros she'll pretty much prove fAegon is not bona fide. (No doubt Tyrion would be helping her behind the scenes.) And if anyone manages to prove that it's all a conspiracy by Varys and Illyrio, it's game, set, and match.

There is one possible way for fAegon's handlers/supporters to elude disaster if being unmasked is imminent. If he marries Arianne, even if Doran learns he's been had, his daughter will still be queen. He'd surely keep the secret because it will be to his advantage and will seem poetic justice for what Elia suffered.

[adiman83]

Clever as Varys is, I bet that when Dany arrives in Westeros she'll pretty much prove fAegon is not bona fide. (No doubt Tyrion would be helping her behind the scenes.) And if anyone manages to prove that it's all a conspiracy by Varys and Illyrio, it's game, set, and match.

How could Dany prove fAegon is not the real deal? I certainly don't think he is real because the story of his escape doesn't hold water. But I still don't see how Dany could prove it to be a fabrication. She might make a claim that Aegon is fake but just because she says it, doesn't make it true ... see Stannis telling everybody how Cercei's children are bastards; nobody really believed him.

[The Viper of Dorne]

I thought he was real. Then I read about the mummer's dragon theory and now I'm having doubts

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Aegon is real but his name isn't Aegon. (F)Aegon is real but his name isn't Aegon. The "Aegon" who was killed at KL wasn't Aegon.

Let's, for the sake of the discussion forget that we know that baby Aegon had Targaryen features and that he was almost a year older and say that Jon could be Aegon. You mentioned the black Martells' eyes and Jon's dark grey eyes also someone could argue that Jon's dark brown hair are close to Martells' black, how do you explain Jon's skin when the Martells have olive skin? Because all the other Martell-Targaryen who take after the Martells have olive skin.

[adiman83]

Let's, for the sake of the discussion forget that we know that baby Aegon had Targaryen features and that he was almost a year older and say that Jon could be Aegon. You mentioned the black Martells' eyes and Jon's dark grey eyes also someone could argue that Jon's dark brown hair are close to Martells' black, how do you explain Jon's skin when the Martells have olive skin? Because all the other Martell-Targaryen who take after the Martells have olive skin.

Yeah, Jon having Dornish blood doesn't really stand. He was described as having pure Stark features and that was one more reason for Catelyn to hate him, because he looked more like a Stark than her own children. So I don't really think Jon is Aegon.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Yeah, Jon having Dornish blood doesn't really stand. He was described as having pure Stark features and that was one more reason for Catelyn to hate him, because he looked more like a Stark than her own children. So I don't really think Jon is Aegon.

Not just more like a Stark, Ned told that he saw Jon as a younger version of himself. Jon is Ned's doppelganger and he is a Martell?

OMG ELIA WAS A SECRET STARK! :eek: So Oberyn was a wolfviper?

edit: Also if we have to go down that road we know when Jon was born and Jon's date of birth doesn't match with Aegon's.

[Neilos]

I have my doubts, but I think he may well be real (I outlined why in a thread some time ago).

Essentially, my reason is this: I believe Aegon's purpose in the story is to demonstrate to Daenerys (and the reader) that legitimacy does not come from bloodline or family or any of that. It comes from actions, beliefs, and life. If he was fake, beating him would be meaningless. If he was real, beating him would have a lot of meaning for Daenerys. She would stop believing she should rule because she's a Targaryen, and start believing she should rule because she can do a good job (whether or not I agree with her on that).

I still believe he's the "Mummer's Dragon". Targaryens aren't always dragons. Viserys was less than the shadow of a snake. Aegon is the same: he comes across as naive, entitled, and cavalier.

[adiman83]

I have my doubts, but I think he may well be real (I outlined why in a thread some time ago).

Essentially, my reason is this: I believe Aegon's purpose in the story is to demonstrate to Daenerys (and the reader) that legitimacy does not come from bloodline or family or any of that. It comes from actions, beliefs, and life. If he was fake, beating him would be meaningless. If he was real, beating him would have a lot of meaning for Daenerys. She would stop believing she should rule because she's a Targaryen, and start believing she should rule because she can do a good job (whether or not I agree with her on that).

I still believe he's the "Mummer's Dragon". Targaryens aren't always dragons. Viserys was less than the shadow of a snake. Aegon is the same: he comes across as naive, entitled, and cavalier.

Well, with that kind of reasoning, if actions and beliefs and life are more important than blood ... which they are by the way, it makes no difference if he's real or not. Just as Varys says, Aegon sees the throne as a duty, not a birthright.

But "mummer's dragon" doesn't mean what you think it means. There are two possible interpretations there: 1 - he's not a real Targaryen (a mummer's dragon was a cloth dragon on a pole, basically a fake dragon used in their theater plays); 2 - he is a Targaryen, but nothing more that Varys' puppet; Varys was a mummer in his youth so in this case Aegon would literally be "the mummer's dragon".

[Jon's Queen Consort]

That doesn't make Elia very smart.

1. Worst hiding place ever.

2. Telling Rhaenys to hide while she stays put in the nursery doesn't change the fact that - whether (f)Aegon is fake or not - Elia still chose not to be with Rhaenys in their final moments.

You think Elia told Rhaenys to go hide while she stayed with the baby and didn't bother to hide at all?

Rhaenys has nothing to do with any of this.

Well I don't believe that Elia told her to hide under Rhaegar's bed.

I think that Elia told Rhaenys to hide when she tried to defend Aegon who couldn't run. If Aegon was the pisswater prince then I don't think that Elia would be with him and not with Rhaenys.

[Alta1r]

I hope he's not real (because of how late in the story such an important character would be introduced) but I don't think he's a Blackfyre. For a couple of reasons:

1. Within the universe the timing of getting him birthed seems a little incredulous. Regardless of whether he came from Ilyrio's wife or some other female line, it would mean that the couple just happened to get pregnant around the same time as Elia with Aegon. While not impossible, it's highly coincidental. It's also possible that Ilyrio kept his ears open and as soon as he heard that Elia was pregnant, maybe a month into term when she misses her period, he and his BF wife start their mission. But then Elia also had Rhaenys, who was a few years older. Did Ilyrio also have a kid around her age? That also happens to be a girl as a boy would technically have a better claim to the throne? Or maybe they just had a kid every year. But then what about all the other kids? Just unlucky that they weren't born in the same year as Aegon?

And keep in mind this is all taking place before any rebellion or anything else. That would be a lot of planning for something they didn't even know would happen.

Or maybe they just found a BlackFyre kid who just happened to be the same age as Aegon when he was killed and thanked their lucky stars for it? Any option seems too coincidental in the book world and too big of a deux ex machina for GRRM.

2. The vast majority of GRRM's audience doesn't know much of or care about the BFs. We do here but that's why we're here in the first place. But most haven't read the other stories like Duncan & Egg and would probably only be confused by this new major story arc. I know I was in the beginning when I first read about the Blackfyres here. And I'm still not really interested in them, lol. Introducing this internecine succession drama this late in the game involving a conflict most of his audience doesn't really know or care about just seems like bad writing.

So, overall, I hope it's not real Aegon but I certainly don't think it'll be a Blackfyre Aegon.

[Fae Boleyn]

I don't know if he's real, but I know I definitely would prefer it if he is.

I just don't think any of the fake Aegon theories are particularly convincing. There's holes in all the possible ideas, and I don't think any of them are more believable than the story we're given on Blue Aegon's escape. Unlike, say, R+L=J, which I read once and was converted to, the various fake!Aegon theories... Don't know why, but I'm not sold. Even odds on his real identity, at this point, the way I see it.

[Veltigar]

Mors Martell was most likely an Andal conqueror as Nymeria chose him because he was the most powerful king in Dorne, which at the time was a collection of petty Andal kingdoms.

Mors Martell wasn't the most powerful King in Dorne at the time IIRC from the books. That was the Head of House Yronwood (the Bloodroyal) and perhaps several others were more powerful as well (I think it was explained in that passage where they talk about the 6 Kings delivered to the NW in Golden chains). I believe Nym chose Mors because he was the first King she met and because if she wanted an advantagous pact she needed to marry a King who actually needed her and her troops.

[Freesword]

While I don't think he is real, it won't matter if he gets enough support, especially considering Dorn has not been affected by the war as much as the other regions. Also, if bad things happen to Cersei and her group the Tyrell's may support him. (After all Margaery cant go 30 minutes without a husband)

[ReRe]

I do believe he is fake. BUT it seems sort of weird by GRRM. "Whoow, Aegon Targaryen ALIVE!", and then "oh, nooo its not really Aegon!".. Just seems like bad writing. Only way he is fake, and not bad writing (my opinion) would perhaps be if he turns out to be a blackfyre (but I still think it would be a little lame).

I agree that Aegon is a fake. However, I think it is REALLY bad writing for Martin to introduce a "dead Targaryen" at the end of his fifth novel. There is absolutely no interest in, sympathty for, or connection to this character. Readers have invested years in the storylines of Jon, Dany, and Tyrion. Now Martin throws us a "dead 15-year-old baby"? Wow! That's almost as lame a storyline as Tyrion's was in ADWD. So PAINFUL reading THOSE chapters. George....you need a new muse or a new editor. Plot and characterization are SERIOUSLY deteriorating. To quote James Brown, "Get on offa that thing."

[Rorey Targaryen]

I don't know if he's real, but I know I definitely would prefer it if he is.

I just don't think any of the fake Aegon theories are particularly convincing. There's holes in all the possible ideas, and I don't think any of them are more believable than the story we're given on Blue Aegon's escape. Unlike, say, R+L=J, which I read once and was converted to, the various fake!Aegon theories... Don't know why, but I'm not sold. Even odds on his real identity, at this point, the way I see it.

:agree:

My sentiments exactly.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

fake

[Ser Eric]

I agree that Aegon is a fake. However, I think it is REALLY bad writing for Martin to introduce a "dead Targaryen" at the end of his fifth novel. There is absolutely no interest in, sympathty for, or connection to this character. Readers have invested years in the storylines of Jon, Dany, and Tyrion. Now Martin throws us a "dead 15-year-old baby"? Wow! That's almost as lame a storyline as Tyrion's was in ADWD. So PAINFUL reading THOSE chapters. George....you need a new muse or a new editor. Plot and characterization are SERIOUSLY deteriorating. To quote James Brown, "Get on offa that thing."

Arrgh. I REALLY think you are TALKING a massive load of BOLLOCKS.

[Poppa Bolton]

Daemon Blackfyre was the rightful heir by every law of Westeros.

And you know it's true.