Winter's Knight Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 And I spent the whole of 15 seconds on that pun... SHAEmeful. Get it? :D I thought it was a typo. Ser, that was a terrible, terrible pun and you should feel whoreble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drayrock Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 As we all know Tywin is one of the greatest men in the entire history of Westeros but he gets alot of negativity for a few minor things that really shouldn't impact the view of his legacy. 1. The killing of the babes Yes its a terrible act but it was the correct thing to do, if Tywin didn't have them killed someone else would have, the brutality of their deaths makes no difference. 2. The raising of his children Really? I mean come on, they are human beings with their own thoughts and feelings, I imagine bringing up kids is a hard thing to do, harder when you're a single parent, harder again when you rule as a lord paramount, even harder when you are ruling seven kingdoms. Even then, his children turned out ok, Cersei became queen, Jaime is one of the greatest knights of all time and Tyrion is very intelligent, admittedly they have their flaws but who doesn't? You can't blame the twincest on Tywin and you can't blaming for not wanting a dwarf son to inherit, 100 years ago it was believed that there would never be a black president, does that make everyone 100 years ago bad people? No, they were just products of their times, much like Tywin. By modern standards Winston Churchill was racist, sexist. imperialistic, homophobic etc but is still remembered as the greatest briton of all time and one of the greatest men ever, how does this differ from Tywin? 3. Rains of Castamere 100% Necessary. 4. They way he died. Does being kill by a dwarf son that you hate and subsequently shitting yourself make you anyless of a great man? No. Achilles died in battle, doesn't make him any less of a warrior, Napoleon was captured and imprisoned, doesn't make him anyless of great commander. 5. Red Wedding A stroke of genius, orchestrated by his brilliant mind but who got the credit (and also the blame of everyone?) The Freys and Boltons. Pure genius. Sounds like your mind is made up.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great and Mighty Poo Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I smell bull shit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Ser, that was a terrible, terrible pun and you should feel whoreble. Well played. :bowdown: I'm lol-ing so hard, I can't think of a proper response. :lmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearIslander Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Oh come on! Lord Tywin is far behind many truly great kings and lords of Iron Islands. Those were THE men: did what they wanted, took what they desired, kill anyone... What's not to love about the Old Way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Well played. :bowdown: I'm lol-ing so hard, I can't think of a proper response. :lmao: Thanks, I do my best. B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 1) A hideous atrocity that was NOT necessary - the babes could have been shipped into exile with Rhaella and Viserys. 2) He gave his kids a shitton of psychological issues that would make them all miserable and lead to disaster down the road. No, he can't be blamed for the twincest, but he can be blamed for screwing his kids up and failing to recognize them for what they really were. 3) Oh, the Reynes and Tarbecks needed to be punished, no doubt about it. But wiping out the entire houses, including the little children, was not necessary. 4) He not only failed to love his son, he took away one of the only two people who ever did love Tyrion in a sickeningly cruel and brutal fashion. He deserved what he got, hardcore. 5) Another hideous atrocity that undermined one of the key pillars of social trust in Westeros - the guest right. Short term benefit for House Lannister at considerable long term cost to the entire realm. Selfish and low. Tywin Lannister is a tyrant and a piece of shit. Oh, he could be worse, we've seen many worse in this series, and at least he does what he does with the noble goal of keeping the peace. But a peace rooted in fear is neither as durable nor as pleasant as a peace that is rooted in trust. By using underhanded tactics and rewarding people for betrayals, Tywin undermines the ability of Westerosi to trust each other. Once he's gone, everything good that he built crumbles, because no one fears a dead man - and the damage he did outlasts him. Westeros would have been better off if he had never existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearIslander Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 1) A hideous atrocity that was NOT necessary - the babes could have been shipped into exile with Rhaella and Viserys 2) He gave his kids a shitton of psychological issues that would make them all miserable and lead to disaster down the road. No, he can't be blamed for the twincest, but he can be blamed for screwing his kids up and failing to recognize them for what they really were. 3) Or, the Reynes and Tarbecks needed to be punished, no doubt about it. But wiping out the entire houses, including the little children, was not necessary. 4) He not only failed to love his son, he took away one of the only two people who ever did love Tyrion in a sickeningly cruel and brutal fashion. He deserved what he got, hardcore. 5) Another hideous atrocity that undermined one of the key pillars of social trust in Westeros - the guest right. Short term benefit for House Lannister at considerable long term cost to the entire realm. Selfish and low. Tywin Lannister is a tyrant and a piece of shit. Oh, he could be worse, we've seen many worse in this series, and at least he does what he does with the noble goal of keeping the peace. But a peace rooted in fear is neither as durable nor as pleasant as a peace that is rooted in trust. By using underhanded tactics and rewarding people for betrayals, Tywin undermines the ability of Westerosi to trust each other. Once he's gone, everything good that he built crumbles, because no one fears a dead man - and the damage he did outlasts him. Westeros would have been better off if he had never existed. Admirable speech. Amen to every word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose The Weddingcrasher Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Imo, the most precise way to describe Tywin's style of ruling, was his aim to be the exact opposite to his father. He just went to an other extreme. But being a good ruler is about finding the middle ground, and since Tywin didn't even try that, he deserves no recognition for his ruling. And please, will someone share with me the reason for assuming he was a good military leader? Compared to men like Blackfish/Robb, Stannis, Robert, Ned, even Tarly? He won a few battles having enormous numerous advantage and suffered heavy losses against Edmure and the Irnonborn when he was in positions in which a very good commander could be expected to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearIslander Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 And please, will someone share with me the reason for assuming he was a good military leader? Compared to men like Blackfish/Robb, Stannis, Robert, Ned, even Tarly? He won a few battles having enormous numerous advantage and suffered heavy losses against Edmure and the Irnonborn when he was in positions in which a very good commander could be expected to win. I asked exactly that a few times. I didn't see a slightest proof he was any good as military commander. And what 'half a hundred battles', for gods' sake? Who gave him the fiercest battle: toddlers of Castamere or maids of Tarbeck hall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 And please, will someone share with me the reason for assuming he was a good military leader? Compared to men like Blackfish/Robb, Stannis, Robert, Ned, even Tarly? He won a few battles having enormous numerous advantage and suffered heavy losses against Edmure and the Irnonborn when he was in positions in which a very good commander could be expected to win. Most of that stems from Cersei's comment about how he won half a hundred battles, but that seems quite an exaggeration. Here is a good and short thread about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 It took you so long? The first sentence was enough for me. This. "It was the correct thing to do" immediately drew a "0/10" thought in my head and I skipped to te comments to see if anyone was taking this thread seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeRhaegar Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Imo, the most precise way to describe Tywin's style of ruling, was his aim to be the exact opposite to his father. He just went to an other extreme. But being a good ruler is about finding the middle ground, and since Tywin didn't even try that, he deserves no recognition for his ruling. And please, will someone share with me the reason for assuming he was a good military leader? Compared to men like Blackfish/Robb, Stannis, Robert, Ned, even Tarly? He won a few battles having enormous numerous advantage and suffered heavy losses against Edmure and the Irnonborn when he was in positions in which a very good commander could be expected to win. same thing i asked what war victory did he truly win from a real military point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariphea Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 He underestimated his own son because of his prejudices.... and now he's dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 How did he underestimate Tyrion, and how did that lead to his death?Tyrion did not get Tyrion out. Varys/Jaime did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommen Beetsbane Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 No troll. Just truth, is there a difference between killing a child and brutally killing a child? No, killing is killing. Is there a humane way to kill a child? No. yes there is, and tywin knows it. he talks about having to kill elia or w/e idk her name but he talks about the mountain taking 200 thrusts to kill her when the other guy would've just used a pillow. a pillow is a lot easier than being raped to death,and tywin recognizes this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommen Beetsbane Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 same thing i asked what war victory did he truly win from a real military point of view. the battles against the raynes and the other guys when he was just 15,like robb he was a great military leader at an early age. thats why he was chosen as hand of the king Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 the battles against the raynes and the other guys when he was just 15,like robb he was a great military leader at an early age. thats why he was chosen as hand of the king No, he wasn't. He was chosen as Hand, because Aerys was impressed by his efficiency and ruthlessness - not because of his military prowess. The Reynes and the Tarbecks greatly misjudged the Lannisters, that's all. There probably wasn't much of a battle either - it was 2 houses against the rest of the Westerlands. It was a complete overkill on Tywin's part - though, arguably, a necessary one. But not a great military victory by any standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMysteriousOne Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I love Tywin fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhaenyraTargaryen Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I get why Tywin is the way he is due to his father and the cultural aspects of Westeros. I mean, how important isn't if for a man to be brave and tough and so forth. Just look at Samwell!So Tytos, Tywin's father, was seen as cowardly and weak, which is shameful in so many ways for House Lannister. Of course that made an impact on Tywin. It makes perfect sense. He will not have his house ashamed again!The reins of Castlamere, the shame of fathering a dwarf, the fact he never laughs. It fits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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