Lady Stoneheart: Why bring Cat back?

[WeaselPie]

Reread her second chapter in AGOT. She's not pissed that he had an affair while out warring, nor that he had a bastard. What pissed her off is that he raised Jon at Winterfell alongside her children, keeping him constantly in her sight and thereby rubbing his infidelity in her face. Also, she worries that Jon is a threat to her children, because there is ample precedent for bastards killing and betraying their trueborn siblings to steal their birthright. We know that Jon wouldn't do that but she is paranoid about it nonetheless.

Thanks I knew she did have angst about Jon possibly having a claim... I need to find the reference.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

To kill Freys and chew bubble gum. And she's all out of gum.

[Annara Snow]

Reread her second chapter in AGOT. She's not pissed that he had an affair while out warring, nor that he had a bastard. What pissed her off is that he raised Jon at Winterfell alongside her children, keeping him constantly in her sight and thereby rubbing his infidelity in her face. Also, she worries that Jon is a threat to her children, because there is ample precedent for bastards killing and betraying their trueborn siblings to steal their birthright. We know that Jon wouldn't do that but she is paranoid about it nonetheless.

You've just proved what I said, she never suspected that someone other than Ned could be Jon's father. The rest just stems from her dislike, and has nothing to do with whether Jon was older than Robb, which I don't think he's supposed to be anyway.

[WeaselPie]

You've just proved what I said, she never suspected that someone other than Ned could be Jon's father. The rest just stems from her dislike, and has nothing to do with whether Jon was older than Robb, which I don't think he's supposed to be anyway.

No, he isn't supposed to be older than Robb, that is my point.

[David Selig]

But it's quite clear from Cat's PoV that she thought Jon was conceived while Ned went to war after his marriage and thus is younger than Robb. There was no fudging of age.

And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned’s face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

[Sansa_Stark]

Because her suffering and humiliation isn't over yet.

GRRM really hates Cat and we all know Jaime is going to make it out alive.

Which probably means Stoneheart failed....

[WeaselPie]

But it's quite clear from Cat's PoV that she thought Jon was conceived while Ned went to war after his marriage and thus is younger than Robb. There was no fudging of age.

It's clear that's the official story. Cat/Robb and Ned/Jon didn't meet at Winterfell until some time after the war ended, and Ned obviously had contact with this mystery mother after they were already married.

"I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty."

This quote does not say Robb is older than Jon. Far from it. It only implies Cat thought there was a paramour involved that he still had contact with after she married him.

[Sansa_Stark]

Cat didn't actually hate Jon because he was a threat to her children's claims as he was. She hated him because she was just a petty person like that.

"And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell."

Why note Jon's children who would compete for WF against her grandchildren?

Why does she not think, "He would never be able to contest with Catelyn's own children for Winterfell."

?

[WeaselPie]

Cat didn't actually hate Jon because he was a threat to her children's claims as he was. She hated him because she was just a petty person like that.

"And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell."

Why note Jon's children who would compete for WF against her grandchildren?

Why does she not think, "He would never be able to contest with Catelyn's own children for Winterfell."

?

A little confused by your post, since (thanks) you found her quotes about Cat's concerns about Jon's possible claims against Cat's children.

[MotherAnduin]

Because her suffering and humiliation isn't over yet.

 

GRRM really hates Cat and we all know Jaime is going to make it out alive.

 

Which probably means Stoneheart failed....

I agree. Give that poor woman a break. I would scream in glee if Stoneheart kills Jaime.

[Sansa_Stark]

A little confused by your post, since (thanks) you found her quotes about Cat's concerns about Jon's possible claims against Cat's children.

But its not Jon himself that is a threat in her mind. If he has children, then yes, they are a threat. But not Jon himself.

[complexphoenix]

There are a whole lot of people who could be dangerous antagonists to Brienne and Jaime. Bringing undead Cat just for that purpose seems really unnecessary.

But to Lady Catelyn, they both swore oaths, making their conflict with her psychologically wrenching in addition to endangering their lives. What other possible antagonist brings that complication to the table? We know how GRRM likes to make things messy and interesting...

[Sansa_Stark]

I agree. Give that poor woman a break. I would scream in glee if Stoneheart kills Jaime.

shouldn't have abused an innocent child etc

[WeaselPie]

But its not Jon himself that is a threat in her mind. If he has children, then yes, they are a threat. But not Jon himself.

How is not Jon himself? If not for Jon, she would have no worries about any children he might have. And why would a bastard's children be of any concern to her? Cat has 5 kids, one of whom is older than.... oh wait, you see what I did there?

[Jon of the Dead]

Why bring her back?

1) To ruin one of his best-written, layered and realistic characters by turning her into a demented zombie

2) To provide a plot point to get Jaime and Brienne back together

[noSer]

Why bring her back?

1) To ruin one of his best-written, layered and realistic characters by turning her into a demented zombie

2) To provide a plot point to get Jaime and Brienne back together

Yes yes and yes again. To be honest LS is the one character that was a mistake. Could have done without this weird story line.

[Jon of the Dead]

Yes yes and yes again. To be honest LS is the one character that was a mistake. Could have done without this weird story line.

And I was forgetting another reason:

3) To reduce considerably the emotional impact of the RW

[complexphoenix]

And I was forgetting another reason:

3) To reduce considerably the emotional impact of the RW

That's a very good reason! The RW desperately needed to be mitigated by something. Even with Cat coming back as a zombie it's still so horrible that I have a hard time dealing with it even when I know it's coming.

[Jon of the Dead]

That's a very good reason! The RW desperately needed to be mitigated by something. Even with Cat coming back as a zombie it's still so horrible that I have a hard time dealing with it even when I know it's coming.

If anything Cat coming back as a zombie makes it more gruesome and tragic, at least for me. I would have left that alone, with no resurrections.

I do have to admit, tho, that the aSoS epilogue was and still is amazing. But then the character took a turn for the worst, imo of course

[complexphoenix]

Why bring her back?

1) To ruin one of his best-written, layered and realistic characters by turning her into a demented zombie

2) To provide a plot point to get Jaime and Brienne back together

I wouldn't say it ruins her, I'd say it's a logical progression of her character given the propensity she's shown in the past to completely lose it when she can't protect her children. We see this side of her in AGOT when she lingers at Bran's bedside after his fall and neglects everything else she ought to be doing. We see it in ACOK when she responds to Bran and Rickon's deaths by freeing Jaime in a desperate attempt to get her girls back. We see it in ASOS when she takes Jinglebell hostage in a desperate attempt to save Robb and then kills him when it doesn't work. And in Lady Stoneheart we see this side of her, this darkness that was always there, always a part of her, consume the rest of her. This is a classic form of tragic character development.